GlowInTheDark
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:31 am

You know, for all the usual nitpicking that makes up the body of the responses on this thread, the OP does make one almost reasonable point.

That standard consumer gear, e.g., the Roku, would look weird if it came with other than a standard HDMI jack. I.e., if it didn't work with standard cables. They (the makers of the Roku) would have to include a cable as part of the kit.

My sense is that the Pi4 *IS* qualitatively different from its predecessors. Leaving the Zero outside of the discussion, one of the nice things about previous models of the Pi was that other than the board itself, you could use stuff you already had laying around - the power supply, the cables, etc. With the Pi 4, you pretty much need to buy a kit - because those things (power supply and cables) are now non-standard.

I.e., the Pi4 is not in the category of "standard consumer gear". An argument could be made that earlier versions were, at least in some sense.

But as they say, it is what it is...
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:14 am

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:31 am
With the Pi 4, you pretty much need to buy a kit - because those things (power supply and cables) are now non-standard.
ALL the USB and HDMI connectors used on every model Pi are standard!
Just because YOU haven't got a compatible cable, doesn't make it non-standard.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:19 am

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:31 am
You know, for all the usual nitpicking that makes up the body of the responses on this thread, the OP does make one almost reasonable point.

That standard consumer gear, e.g., the Roku, would look weird if it came with other than a standard HDMI jack. I.e., if it didn't work with standard cables. They (the makers of the Roku) would have to include a cable as part of the kit.

My sense is that the Pi4 *IS* qualitatively different from its predecessors. Leaving the Zero outside of the discussion, one of the nice things about previous models of the Pi was that other than the board itself, you could use stuff you already had laying around - the power supply, the cables, etc. With the Pi 4, you pretty much need to buy a kit - because those things (power supply and cables) are now non-standard.

I.e., the Pi4 is not in the category of "standard consumer gear". An argument could be made that earlier versions were, at least in some sense.

But as they say, it is what it is...
Yes, the Pi4 is different to its predecessors. Just like any upgrade. And yes, it's now less likely you will have the necessary cable hanging around. It's only that HMI cable though - although we recommend our own power supplies you should be able to use any USB-C power device (with the obvious proviso that the initial board release had a fault that mean PD USB-C power supplies didn't work, not intentional).

So disagree you need to buy a kit. A cable, likely, an PS less likely. But no need for keyboards, mice etc.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:21 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:15 am
$200k vs $1 for an adapter....you would need to sell about 1M Pi4/BigHDMI boards to even think about breaking even. Think the market is that desperate?
My estimate of $300K was based on a minimum order quantity of 5,000 re-engineered boards costing $50 each, with $50K engineering costs on top. One would break even after selling just those 5,000 at $60 each.

If one did somehow manage to sell a million such units at $60 each one would be sitting on a tidy $10 million profit.

Is such a market there ? No idea. The Foundation never expected to sell more than a few thousand Pi, never expected they'd sell a million Zeroes.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:46 am

So disagree you need to buy a kit. A cable, likely, an PS less likely. But no need for keyboards, mice etc.
That's why I said "pretty much". Obviously, you might have those things laying around, but it is less likely. Note to nitpickers: Not necessarily "unlikely", just "less likely".

I know I've got lots of "normal" HDMI cables lying around and lots of "normal" USB power supplies laying around, but I had none of the kind I needed for the Pi4. No matter, the kit I bought was easy enough to buy.

And, of course, you are right about the keyboard and the mouse (and the "etc").

P.S. I know the word "standard" tends to fire up certain posters here. So, I've switched to the word "normal". No way that's going to fire them up. Yup, no way...
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:48 am

I don't think they'd want to sell at $60 a pop. It'd open up for all kinds of bad goodwill and speculation.

Imagine the hubub if they'd sell a plain Zero with a DSI connector (instead of the CSI) for $60, or even $20.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:50 am

hippy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:21 am
jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:15 am
$200k vs $1 for an adapter....you would need to sell about 1M Pi4/BigHDMI boards to even think about breaking even. Think the market is that desperate?
My estimate of $300K was based on a minimum order quantity of 5,000 re-engineered boards costing $50 each, with $50K engineering costs on top. One would break even after selling just those 5,000 at $60 each.

If one did somehow manage to sell a million such units at $60 each one would be sitting on a tidy $10 million profit.

Is such a market there ? No idea. The Foundation never expected to sell more than a few thousand Pi, never expected they'd sell a million Zeroes.
$60 board instead of $35, just for a different connector that you can cope with by buying a different cable or an adapter. For the majority of people it's just not cost effective...
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:22 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:50 am
$60 board instead of $35, just for a different connector that you can cope with by buying a different cable or an adapter. For the majority of people it's just not cost effective...
Absolutely agree. I wouldn't buy it, wouldn't expect many to do so, but those who believe that "micro-HDMI is a deal breaker" might.

And it might be that the price differential is less which could make it more attractive to others.

I do have to admit I was guilty of wishing the 4B had a full-size connector when I couldn't find my micro-HDMI cables and wasted half a day hunting those down.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:50 pm

$60 board instead of $35, just for a different connector...
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly, ...) that the $60 was based on the 4G version - since that's what people seem to most want (Why wouldn't you want as much RAM as you can get?). So, as far as I know, that would make your baseline $55, not $35.

Yet, some poster said:
If one did somehow manage to sell a million such units at $60 each one would be sitting on a tidy $10 million profit.
which implies $10 profit per board ($10 million on sales of one million pieces), so that implies the baseline is $50, not $55. Go figure...
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:02 pm

I think whatever numbers you use, it's not going to be very cost effective for someone to design and build single full size HDMI port Pi4's. They are going to cost considerably more than the standard Pi4 of same memory size. And considerably more than simply buying a new cable or an adapter.

I like the smaller format, much neater that that hunking great full size HDMI plug.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:11 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:02 pm
I think whatever numbers you use, it's not going to be very cost effective for someone to design and build single full size HDMI port Pi4's. They are going to cost considerably more than the standard Pi4 of same memory size. And considerably more than simply buying a new cable or an adapter.

I like the smaller format, much neater that that hunking great full size HDMI plug.
oh, I totally agree - with both points. I was just throwing the numbers around.

The micro HDMI (both of them!) is (are) great - once you get used to it...
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:53 pm

I personally would like mini DisplayPort. It's more robust than micro HDMI and i already had an adapter for the old HDMI-only monitor i use. Many newer monitors will accept DisplayPort or even USB C. For the future USB C is probably a better choice since it's gaining popularity quickly but it requires extra logic and PCIe lanes which adds extra costs.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:10 pm

pica200 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:53 pm
I personally would like mini DisplayPort. It's more robust than micro HDMI and i already had an adapter for the old HDMI-only monitor i use. Many newer monitors will accept DisplayPort or even USB C. For the future USB C is probably a better choice since it's gaining popularity quickly but it requires extra logic and PCIe lanes which adds extra costs.
Displayport requires different hardware on the chip, and is less well supported on TV's which are used a lot with Pi device. The world is not just monitors. On the whole, HDMI is now used on monitors as well as TV's whereas displayport is mostly only found on monitors.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:26 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:10 pm
pica200 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:53 pm
I personally would like mini DisplayPort. It's more robust than micro HDMI and i already had an adapter for the old HDMI-only monitor i use. Many newer monitors will accept DisplayPort or even USB C. For the future USB C is probably a better choice since it's gaining popularity quickly but it requires extra logic and PCIe lanes which adds extra costs.
Displayport requires different hardware on the chip, and is less well supported on TV's which are used a lot with Pi device. The world is not just monitors. On the whole, HDMI is now used on monitors as well as TV's whereas displayport is mostly only found on monitors.
On the other hand, Displayport can support HDMI output as well and Displayport to HDMI cables are easily obtainable. (I've got a couple, but no DP system to use them with any more).

However, the chip not having the right hardware for DP does kill that idea.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:28 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:46 am
So disagree you need to buy a kit. A cable, likely, an PS less likely. But no need for keyboards, mice etc.
That's why I said "pretty much". Obviously, you might have those things laying around, but it is less likely. Note to nitpickers: Not necessarily "unlikely", just "less likely".

I know I've got lots of "normal" HDMI cables lying around and lots of "normal" USB power supplies laying around, but I had none of the kind I needed for the Pi4. No matter, the kit I bought was easy enough to buy.

And, of course, you are right about the keyboard and the mouse (and the "etc").

P.S. I know the word "standard" tends to fire up certain posters here. So, I've switched to the word "normal". No way that's going to fire them up. Yup, no way...
Prior to acquiring by first Pi--getting on for 8 years ago--I didn't have *any* HDMI cables, and not much in the way of USB equipment. That doesn't mean that I would have claimed it was "not standard" at the time, only that nothing I was using--except for the Pi--required it. Likewise, not having anything with a microHDMI prior to getting my first Pi4B just meant that I got suitable cables along with it, and have been picking up more of them since.

From where I sit, "non-standard" would equate to "none of my usual sources of supply carry that".

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:05 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:50 pm
$60 board instead of $35, just for a different connector...
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly, ...) that the $60 was based on the 4G version... So, as far as I know, that would make your baseline $55, not $35.

Yet, some poster said:
If one did somehow manage to sell a million such units at $60 each one would be sitting on a tidy $10 million profit.
which implies $10 profit per board ($10 million on sales of one million pieces), so that implies the baseline is $50, not $55. Go figure...
Yes that was me. Pi 4B are 'RRP' $35, $45, $55 which includes mark-up profit for Sony, the RPT and their resellers, or they wouldn't be making their millions. So I set $50 as build cost of a re-engineered 4GB 4B plus some mark-up.

Kano had a Pi board re-engineered and I doubt they would have done that if it had ended up just as costly as RS bulk price which includes their mark-up, so $50 seemed a reasonable guesstimate.

I didn't challenge the $35 baseline because I didn't think it was worth arguing over, given no one knows exactly how much it would cost or would say.

My $10 million bonanza was based on selling the first 5,000 $50 boards for $60 and making no profit as it merely covers engineering costs. But everything after that would be clear $10 profit.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:47 pm

I personally feel that the people complaining are complaining for the same reasons I did when the Pi4 first launched - wanting to use a small HDMI screen for portability. an adaptor is not an option and currently no screens exist that are compatible.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:49 pm

I find it odd one of the main issues relating to this has not been mentioned... those small HDMI adapters don't allow for dual display or even powering the Pi. They don't fit. Made much worse by Pi developers decision to use the HDMI closest to the USBC as default. IMO would have been much better to use the one farther away.

Bottom line it's going to cost 3x-4x more to get Pi4 running compared to previous models. Worth the extra few bucks for that small minority who really do need two monitors. You end up having to buy two micro cables, not adapters. Micro cables will cost at least 2x and typically 4x as much as 'normal' ones. Times two again for the 'iguana eyes' who like dual screen.

Since I personally have no use for 2 screens ATM it's just an annoyance. However the need may arise someday so do find two ports a good feature for that reason (except for the poor choice of default already mentioned). In the end would not prefer a single port version.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:43 pm

emma1997 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:49 pm
Bottom line it's going to cost 3x-4x more to get Pi4 running compared to previous models.
Nah, you get two Micro HDMI to Standard HDMI (A/M) 1m Cables with the Raspberry Pi 4 full kit. Suitable adapters are a couple of bucks (see Micro HDMI Male to HDMI Female Adapter Cable)

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:15 pm

emma1997 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:49 pm
I find it odd one of the main issues relating to this has not been mentioned... those small HDMI adapters don't allow for dual display or even powering the Pi. They don't fit. Made much worse by Pi developers decision to use the HDMI closest to the USBC as default. IMO would have been much better to use the one farther away.

Bottom line it's going to cost 3x-4x more to get Pi4 running compared to previous models. Worth the extra few bucks for that small minority who really do need two monitors. You end up having to buy two micro cables, not adapters. Micro cables will cost at least 2x and typically 4x as much as 'normal' ones. Times two again for the 'iguana eyes' who like dual screen.

Since I personally have no use for 2 screens ATM it's just an annoyance. However the need may arise someday so do find two ports a good feature for that reason (except for the poor choice of default already mentioned). In the end would not prefer a single port version.
People who can afford two displays can afford two micro cables.

I'd like triple displays, like my laptop with two extra displays. Those damn Pi people, not making what I want.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:54 pm

lol Jamesh, sometimes it's hard to tell if you are joking or not.

It's true some look at it like it's only a couple bucks, others throw a fit over the same difference because it's 300% increase. A wallet is half full or half empty kinda thing I guess.
scruss wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:43 pm
Nah, you get two Micro HDMI to Standard HDMI (A/M) 1m Cables with the Raspberry Pi 4 full kit. Suitable adapters are a couple of bucks (see Micro HDMI Male to HDMI Female Adapter Cable)
Ok... so maybe 3x-6x more. Or 10x more if you start talking 'kits'. :)

Since this whole thing began I've been asked to source accessories for many others out here in the real world. $1 each for HDMI and USB cables so it used to cost couple dollars and change to get somebody started. With Pi4 it's now closer to $9 to get to that same point.

Just got done ordering a few sets today for both Pi3 and Pi4. Regular HDMI less than a dollar each including shipping. Best I could do for micro version same length $3.80 ea. Old style USB (mini or micro to A) 2 for a dollar. USBC to A, couldn't do any better than $1.40 ea. (5 lots BTW)

Of course a lot depends on where we shop and how good at it. Couple months back my sister actually victimized by a well known electronics chain paying over $20 for a cable (including tax). Yesterday while standing in line, 2 gallons milk freezing my fingers off, watched somebody scratching lottery tickets and paying $5 for the same cable I got for a tenth that.

So your mileage can definitely vary depending on skill and market conditions. It's possible tariff wars and virus scare could have some effect but from what I can tell ratios remain similar so convinced no matter what Pi4 is a heavier burden. Still quite a bargain considering what it is and what you get.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:32 am

James,
I think you should have a canned reply reiterating the mission statement of PI.ORG.

My take is this: "They're building their best, cheapest, highly functional board for distribution to classrooms."

As end-users, if our projects can piggy-back on the great pricing of their product, fantastic. Otherwise, another vendor may provide a better feature set at a higher cost. This has always been true for development board options.

PI.ORG is focused on their mission, not ours.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:15 pm
I'd like triple displays, like my laptop with two extra displays. Those damn Pi people, not making what I want.
Umm... :-)

That's actually one of the things stopping me using a 4G Pi 4 as a desktop... I have 3x4kp60 ATM, and I'd rather not lose it.

So, yeah. That on the Pi 5, please. Or the 4B+. I'm not fussed. Moon on a stick optional.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:39 am

Here's a thought on the reasoning, which I guess was the original question.

The 2711 has two HDMI ports.

We could use one or both.

If we implement one, with a big HDMI connector, we service the market for people who want one HDMI port. It is impossible to use two HDMI devices.

If we implement both with micro HDMI, we service the market for two HDMI displays (which is quite large). BUT, we also service the market for people who only want one HDMI, because whilst its impossible to have two HDMI devices if you only implement one, it's perfectly feasible, and cheap, to service the market for one HDMI port with a two port device with simply a different cable.

It really is as simple as that. The market is bigger for a two port device, and needing two ports means moving to uHDMI (notwithstanding stacked connectors which are expensive)
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:52 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:39 am
It really is as simple as that.
I'm sure someone will argue otherwise :lol:
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