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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:36 am

But, my experience over the last 3 weeks of using Pi4's as a light-use desktop replacement in a production environment (reasonable demand) is what it is... unpleasant and unreliable.
That was a pretty gutsy move.
I would have hedged my bets and said let's wait a few months.
Using WiFi and BT at the same time with a new release blob for the RF chip.
And a new Buster OS on new hardware.
And probably running browser based software?
production environment (reasonable demand)
Production? what type?
Sounds like worst case scenario?

Which version are you using, 1, 2 , 4GB?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

chuUK
Posts: 19
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:59 am

jahboater wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 am
chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:30 am
the daily volume of faults that require fixing.
Either this is nonsense, or you have a faulty SD card, or your system management skills need improving.

As Linux distros go I find Rasbian very reliable indeed.
I have been using Linux professionally since its early days, and UNIX for years before that.
Raspbain is surprisingly robust.
I'll choose to ignore the 'nonsense' bit, and the sys admin bit is still rude, but I wont take that bait.

We did think it might be the MicroSD's and ordered a bunch from different suppliers and manufacturers to test and that fixed it - no of course it didn't. Thanks for the advice, but in future could you avoid sandwiching good advice between 2 insults? TU.

"Raspbain is surprisingly robust." Says it all. Look at the thread title, "Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?"

You can pretend all you like, but Raspbian isn't a robust desktop OS. Its fragile. OK, you've asked for it...

Problems we have had (skipping through the support tickets):
- Installation: No problem but easy to break. Some of the Pi's hung on boot after working for a few days
- Heat: Not usable without a shim due to super-quick overheating and throttling. Rendering through OpenShot takes about 5 times as long as a 11-year old PC Mint (i've tested it myself)
- Regular faults: taskbar gone, taskbar lockup, taskbar freeze.. Applets missing. Unable to see applets added to the status bar. Forgetting system settings. App menu bar hiding apps previously selected. App bar moving fro default position.
-. VLC - see the other thread on here for more
- Chromium (or what random joy today): Crashes left right and centre. Not memory crashes either. Another nice one is sometimes when you have 2 tabs open, Chromium will freeze and then flip between both tabs in a never-ending loop.
- Choppy sound (today) 360p only playback.
- PWA and web-apps taking much much longer to render than on 6-yrs old cheapo PC
- Bluetooth tearing and lag that makes computer unusable. Keyboard delays and lock ups. Regular Bluetooth mouse drops requiring restart mouse if lucky, if not plug in corded mouse to shut down and restart. Remove bluetooth mouse from settings and re-pair.

This has come from a team that has been using almost exclusively Mint for the last 3+years. They aren't even your average everyday user - they're not power users but they know enough to get by in Mint. To be clear, the Pi's were bought to replace cheap bottom-of-the-range PCs from 6 years back. They are NOT used for true rendering - only snippets and bits and bobs. The Pi's were bought as mostly web-app tools and a PC running Mint from 11 years ago, should not be 5 times faster than the Pi.

The Pi will remain a hobbyist computer with commercial applications until stability of the system is addressed. We shouldn't be even having this conversation - it's one from 20 years ago.

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jahboater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:21 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:59 am
The Pi will remain a hobbyist computer with commercial applications until stability of the system is addressed. We shouldn't be even having this conversation - it's one from 20 years ago.
OK, I don't (at the moment) use my Pi for all the stuff you do, I just use them for software development.
I do have Mint on my Intel PC's, Ubuntu on the Odroid N2, and Raspbian on all the Pi's. If I had daily issues, I'd probably try something else.

An unstable system can be caused by poor management. Random config changes without fully understanding the consequences, multiple changes at a time, insufficient testing between each change, and so on.

The thing is, they cant make the Pi4 quickly enough to meet demand by some margin, so most users, most of the time, are happy. And that's millions of users.
Last edited by jahboater on Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chuUK
Posts: 19
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:24 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:36 am
But, my experience over the last 3 weeks of using Pi4's as a light-use desktop replacement in a production environment (reasonable demand) is what it is... unpleasant and unreliable.
That was a pretty gutsy move.
I would have hedged my bets and said let's wait a few months.
Using WiFi and BT at the same time with a new release blob for the RF chip.
And a new Buster OS on new hardware.
And probably running browser based software?
production environment (reasonable demand)
Production? what type?
Sounds like worst case scenario?

Which version are you using, 1, 2 , 4GB?
4GB. Small prod team producing web-apps, video and audio. The heavy lifting is done on the Macs.
I want to keep the Pi's.

WiFi and Bluetooth interferring was what I thought to but still lags on Ethernet.

I dont want to dis the Pi, it's great for what it is, but it isn't really a desktop replacement - not yet.

I will keep the faith in the following weeks and hope the Foundation can address the problems.

ShiftPlusOne
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:35 pm

Using OpenShot is very ambitious, so I'll give you that one. It would take some optimization to get video editing software running well.

I don't use bluetooth keyboards or mice on the pi daily, so I don't have first hand experience to say that bluetooth is 100% solid. But of all bluetooth-capable devices I've ever owned, nothing has every worked perfectly 100% of the time.

There is a known issue with bluetooth audio sync which breaks vlc and we have sent a patch upstream to fix that.

If you need to sustain high loads over a long period of time without throttling, yes, a fan is a good idea. I am using one myself until the new FLIRC cases ship.

If you could upload a disk image which exhibits the remaining problems with instructions on how to trigger them, we could take a look.

andrum99
Posts: 1289
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:15 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:24 pm
Small prod team producing web-apps, video and audio. The heavy lifting is done on the Macs.
I want to keep the Pi's.
...
I dont want to dis the Pi, it's great for what it is, but it isn't really a desktop replacement - not yet.
Video production is one of the most demanding tasks you can throw at any computer, so you weren't really being realistic expecting Pi 4 to replace a PC or Mac for that. Also note that Linux video editing software is not as good as on Windows and Mac, nor is the audio editing software.

The Pi 4 is a capable desktop computer for many people. Your use case is at the higher end of the spectrum, in terms of the demands it places on the hardware and software.

LTolledo
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:00 pm

...am quite amazed by the "exceptionally" high expectations of some of the new users of the RPi4B boards..... :shock:

...thinking a (say USD150*) RPi4B4G desktop setup can completely replace a USD2,000* high-end-pc (or MAC) setup

*estimated price indicated does not include cost of software....

....and am still using a RPi3B+ and RPi3B as main and secondary desktop units respectively .... with performance quite sufficient for my needs....
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

chuUK
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:32 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:15 pm
chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:24 pm
Small prod team producing web-apps, video and audio. The heavy lifting is done on the Macs.
I want to keep the Pi's.
...
I dont want to dis the Pi, it's great for what it is, but it isn't really a desktop replacement - not yet.
Video production is one of the most demanding tasks you can throw at any computer, so you weren't really being realistic expecting Pi 4 to replace a PC or Mac for that. Also note that Linux video editing software is not as good as on Windows and Mac, nor is the audio editing software.

The Pi 4 is a capable desktop computer for many people. Your use case is at the higher end of the spectrum, in terms of the demands it places on the hardware and software.

Here's an idea: Post a comment focusing on a minor element of daily use, then ignore all the previous posts. You will never get that wasted time back. You can now join the queue of fanbois blind-lovers that has formed from pointless replies.

I see the light now: you are all right. I have been so foolish. I bought a computer advertised as a desktop replacement that can't replace a 6-year old cheapo PC. What desktop replacement are we talking about? Windows XP?

For the last time for the hard of thinking: The primary purpose of the machines is Chromium and web-apps and at the moment it is at least 5 times slower than old pc hardware - even on machines with lesser RAM and CPU/GPU.

The product was rushed to market and is incomplete. GPIO all you like and I hope you enjoy it, but the foundation has made a clear decision to broaden the appeal of the Pi to include regular desktop users. I thought the Pi was emerging from it's "backroom geek".

If the foundation can pull this off; if they can fix Raspbian so that it can easily be used as a desktop replacement (near Mint level), they have huge potential in my kind of business alone. The importance of web-apps no longer need be stated.

I love my Pi4 and will keep it. The prod ones I'm not sure as I don't enjoy giving up my day off to fix the same type of software bugs I had 10-20 years ago. If they can fix Chromium and keep it stable then we will work around the problems for now.

But thank you to those who have made good suggestions.

chuUK
Posts: 19
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:00 pm
...am quite amazed by the "exceptionally" high expectations of some of the new users of the RPi4B boards..... :shock:

...thinking a (say USD150*) RPi4B4G desktop setup can completely replace a USD2,000* high-end-pc (or MAC) setup

*estimated price indicated does not include cost of software....

....and am still using a RPi3B+ and RPi3B as main and secondary desktop units respectively .... with performance quite sufficient for my needs....
Can you take a ticket, please. There is quite a queue of posters missing the point. focusing on one tiny aspect and then bowing that out of proportion.

I can ne believe what you have written. You mean the Pi4 isn't as fast as our render Macs. OMFG. I wanna a refund. Says on the foundation site... "The Pi4 has unique quantum core processors that occupy different dimensions where every possible computational has already been completed and the Pi merely selects the correct answer."

Come to think of it, where is the advertised flux capacitor. Cant find it in the box. This gets worse and worse.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:48 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:00 pm
...am quite amazed by the "exceptionally" high expectations of some of the new users of the RPi4B boards..... :shock:

...thinking a (say USD150*) RPi4B4G desktop setup can completely replace a USD2,000* high-end-pc (or MAC) setup

*estimated price indicated does not include cost of software....

....and am still using a RPi3B+ and RPi3B as main and secondary desktop units respectively .... with performance quite sufficient for my needs....
Can you take a ticket, please. There is quite a queue of posters missing the point. focusing on one tiny aspect and then bowing that out of proportion.

I can ne believe what you have written. You mean the Pi4 isn't as fast as our render Macs. OMFG. I wanna a refund. Says on the foundation site... "The Pi4 has unique quantum core processors that occupy different dimensions where every possible computational has already been completed and the Pi merely selects the correct answer."

Come to think of it, where is the advertised flux capacitor. Cant find it in the box. This gets worse and worse.

I have read your 9 posts and you appear to be expecting more than is advertised.

Here is some free advice, if the Raspberry Pi does not meet your expectations, sell it on fleabay.
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

chuUK
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:51 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:48 pm
chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:00 pm
...am quite amazed by the "exceptionally" high expectations of some of the new users of the RPi4B boards..... :shock:

...thinking a (say USD150*) RPi4B4G desktop setup can completely replace a USD2,000* high-end-pc (or MAC) setup

*estimated price indicated does not include cost of software....

....and am still using a RPi3B+ and RPi3B as main and secondary desktop units respectively .... with performance quite sufficient for my needs....
Can you take a ticket, please. There is quite a queue of posters missing the point. focusing on one tiny aspect and then bowing that out of proportion.

I can ne believe what you have written. You mean the Pi4 isn't as fast as our render Macs. OMFG. I wanna a refund. Says on the foundation site... "The Pi4 has unique quantum core processors that occupy different dimensions where every possible computational has already been completed and the Pi merely selects the correct answer."

Come to think of it, where is the advertised flux capacitor. Cant find it in the box. This gets worse and worse.

I have read your 9 posts and you appear to be expecting more than is advertised.

Here is some free advice, if the Raspberry Pi does not meet your expectations, sell it on fleabay.
"Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer"
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer

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bomblord
Posts: 285
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:07 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:51 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:48 pm
chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm


Can you take a ticket, please. There is quite a queue of posters missing the point. focusing on one tiny aspect and then bowing that out of proportion.

I can ne believe what you have written. You mean the Pi4 isn't as fast as our render Macs. OMFG. I wanna a refund. Says on the foundation site... "The Pi4 has unique quantum core processors that occupy different dimensions where every possible computational has already been completed and the Pi merely selects the correct answer."

Come to think of it, where is the advertised flux capacitor. Cant find it in the box. This gets worse and worse.

I have read your 9 posts and you appear to be expecting more than is advertised.

Here is some free advice, if the Raspberry Pi does not meet your expectations, sell it on fleabay.
"Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer"
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer
It works fine as a desktop computer. Source, I literally use it at my only desktop computer.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Posts: 27415
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:11 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:51 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:48 pm
chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm


Can you take a ticket, please. There is quite a queue of posters missing the point. focusing on one tiny aspect and then bowing that out of proportion.

I can ne believe what you have written. You mean the Pi4 isn't as fast as our render Macs. OMFG. I wanna a refund. Says on the foundation site... "The Pi4 has unique quantum core processors that occupy different dimensions where every possible computational has already been completed and the Pi merely selects the correct answer."

Come to think of it, where is the advertised flux capacitor. Cant find it in the box. This gets worse and worse.

I have read your 9 posts and you appear to be expecting more than is advertised.

Here is some free advice, if the Raspberry Pi does not meet your expectations, sell it on fleabay.
"Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer"
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer
Raspberry Pi 4
Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer
OK, I have had enough of this thread. I allowed the original post from this user to pass, despite it being rather on the ranty side, because I hoped we would get to the bottom of why he was seeing issues that others are not. But its clearly got too out of hand.

Yes, it's a tiny dual-display desktop computer, of that there is no possible doubt.

Now, whether its powerful enough to do specific tasks that some may do on their current, probably more expensive and highly specced desktop computer, that is down to testing to see what is possible.

In my case, I have had no problems. The OS doesn't crash, and it does what I need, which is development of Pi software. Its been running for months with few issues, and ones I have seen have been fixed, prior to launch.

If in someones particular use case they are seeing crashes or lockup or similar, then please report them in our issue tracker. It's quite simple to do and will get better results than simple dumping huge pages of ranty comment in a thread on here. please ensure your reports give exact details on the setup, what you are trying to do, and what actually happens.

https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues
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ejolson
Posts: 5988
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:12 pm

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:38 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:00 pm
quite amazed by the "exceptionally" high expectations of some of the new users
There is quite a queue of posters missing the point.
I'm certain I'll be missing the point too. The hardware of Pi 4B with 4GB RAM fits nicely into the niche of the environmentally-friendly desktop, even though that appears not to have been the primary development focus.

I've not used OpenShot much. It was too new when I was setting up my video work flows and I have since become very good with Cinelerra. To continue missing the point, I have now used Linux for video editing since the Pentium III was a state-of-the-art desktop computer and the only way to import video was through FireWire or an analogue capture card.

Have you installed heatsinks and fans in your Pi 4B computers yet?

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