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Imperf3kt
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:30 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:07 am
Will it be as good as an medium Android phone?
Perhaps not but it will be closer.
What phone do you know of that idles at 80°C in open air?
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:45 am

What phone do you know of that idles at 80°C in open air?
What Pi do you know has 6" diagonal heatsink?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:52 am

Not the point, a heatsink will saturate with heat until it's the same temperature as the thing radiating the heat.
Convection usually takes that heat away, but convection is limited when your hand is holding onto that heatsink.

It won't take long before a pi4 based phone begins cooking the user's palm and earlobe.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:29 am

The Pi4 is 15watts? That would be the maximum.
So what size does the heatsink need to be?
55C is regards as not skin burning?
55-25 = 30C so about a 2C/W heatsink?
That is a finned heatsink about 32x32x16mm.
Going to need fan for smaller heatsink.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

pik33
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:49 am

RPi4 can do all things a PC can do except playing modern windows games, but then if you have a cheap PC you cannot play them too.

So the RPi4 is now a cheap, small, low power desktop replacement and you still have GPIO in it.

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:54 am

pik33,
So the RPi4 is now a cheap, small, low power desktop replacement and you still have GPIO in it
Yes. Fantastic isn't it.

It's taken a decade or more to get our serial ports and parallel I/O back since we were robbed of them by the arrival of USB on PCs.

Great stuff.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

webbsmurfen
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:19 pm

Well RPI is the perfect vacation computer, Instead to travel with your $600 laptop, its better to use an $55 RPI instead, especially if somebody decide to rob you.

Speed isnt everything, and to be truthfull RPI isnt a gaming computer either. Its perfect to surf, doing some writing check PDFs, and perhaps discord/youtube.. More ram helps doing that.. Its like the old Cyrix CPUs back in the day, It can do almost everything as an Intel based system but to a fraction of the price and half of the preformance.. :D ( or its more like 1/5 in performance)

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bomblord
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:33 pm

I used to run a $1500 PC that I thought I needed for all the high end gaming I intended to do. I found that 99% of my time on that $1500 PC was browsing the web, checking email, or glancing at Facebook.

Now I have a $55 PC connected to the same ultrawide monitor with the same keyboard and mouse. And guess what... it browses the web, checks email, and allows me to flip through Facebook. That 1% of the time I would have otherwise been playing games is spent on my Switch or tinkering with the Pi or using emulators that the Pi 4 can run.
Last edited by bomblord on Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:19 pm

bomblord wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:33 pm
I used to run a $1500 PC that I thought I needed for all the high end gaming I intended to do. I found that 99% of my time on that $1500 PC was browsing the web, checking email, or glancing at Facebook.

Now I have a $55 PC connected to the same ultrawide monitor with the same keyboard and mouse. And guess what... it browses the web, checks email, and allows me to flip through Facebook. That 1% of the time I would have otherwise been playing games is spent on my Switch or tinkering with emulators that the Pi 4 also runs.
"1% of the time" would be--at most 15 minutes per day. I use my relatively high end PC for gaming that cannot possibly run on a Pi a lot more than that. Even so, I'm considering migrating my non-gaming PC activities to a Pi4B.

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bomblord
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:42 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:19 pm
bomblord wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:33 pm
I used to run a $1500 PC that I thought I needed for all the high end gaming I intended to do. I found that 99% of my time on that $1500 PC was browsing the web, checking email, or glancing at Facebook.

Now I have a $55 PC connected to the same ultrawide monitor with the same keyboard and mouse. And guess what... it browses the web, checks email, and allows me to flip through Facebook. That 1% of the time I would have otherwise been playing games is spent on my Switch or tinkering with emulators that the Pi 4 also runs.
"1% of the time" would be--at most 15 minutes per day. I use my relatively high end PC for gaming that cannot possibly run on a Pi a lot more than that. Even so, I'm considering migrating my non-gaming PC activities to a Pi4B.
I'm not sure what methodology you're using to get that number but as I'm sure you're aware it was not literal but an illustration to make a point. The point being I used all the power of that PC so infrequently that it essentially was pointless to have it. The few cases where I do want to play a game on a PC I have other perfectly workable alternatives.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:59 pm

bomblord wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:42 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:19 pm
bomblord wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:33 pm
I used to run a $1500 PC that I thought I needed for all the high end gaming I intended to do. I found that 99% of my time on that $1500 PC was browsing the web, checking email, or glancing at Facebook.

Now I have a $55 PC connected to the same ultrawide monitor with the same keyboard and mouse. And guess what... it browses the web, checks email, and allows me to flip through Facebook. That 1% of the time I would have otherwise been playing games is spent on my Switch or tinkering with emulators that the Pi 4 also runs.
"1% of the time" would be--at most 15 minutes per day. I use my relatively high end PC for gaming that cannot possibly run on a Pi a lot more than that. Even so, I'm considering migrating my non-gaming PC activities to a Pi4B.
I'm not sure what methodology you're using to get that number but as I'm sure you're aware it was not literal but an illustration to make a point. The point being I used all the power of that PC so infrequently that it essentially was pointless to have it. The few cases where I do want to play a game on a PC I have other perfectly workable alternatives.
See the bolded text (of yours) above. Since 24 hours (1 day) is 1440 minutes, the *most* 1% per day can be is just under 15 minutes. That's being generous. I were to assume that you are only on your computer 5 hours per day, 1% would be 3 minutes. If you didn't actually mean 1%, perhaps you should have used some other figure.

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bomblord
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:50 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:59 pm
bomblord wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:42 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:19 pm

"1% of the time" would be--at most 15 minutes per day. I use my relatively high end PC for gaming that cannot possibly run on a Pi a lot more than that. Even so, I'm considering migrating my non-gaming PC activities to a Pi4B.
I'm not sure what methodology you're using to get that number but as I'm sure you're aware it was not literal but an illustration to make a point. The point being I used all the power of that PC so infrequently that it essentially was pointless to have it. The few cases where I do want to play a game on a PC I have other perfectly workable alternatives.
See the bolded text (of yours) above. Since 24 hours (1 day) is 1440 minutes, the *most* 1% per day can be is just under 15 minutes. That's being generous. I were to assume that you are only on your computer 5 hours per day, 1% would be 3 minutes. If you didn't actually mean 1%, perhaps you should have used some other figure.
It was less than 1% as most days I'de come home and not play anything. Just browse the web. Days that I would play a game it would sometimes be a console exclusive so that wasn't PC gaming. So take the average amount of time I was on PC ~5 hours a day 7 days a week I would only pick up a specifically PC game every 2 or 3 months and maybe play it for 3-4 hours on any given day.

So I would be playing games exactly 0.952380952381% of the time. That better?

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:34 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am
The Pi 4 is being advertised as "Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer" that can do anything your current computer can but is just slower and more power efficient. But on the Desktop side of things, it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer. Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
The ARM CPU has been used in desktop computers since 1987, and for a long time was one of the most powerful CPU's to be used in desktop computers.

I personally use Raspberry Pi 3B+ and Raspberry Pi 1B's as desktop computers, though some need the extra RAM and processing power of the Raspberry Pi 4B.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

chuUK
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:17 am

The Pi4 is no way a desktop replacement. Raspbian is a dog of an O/S THAT HAS HAD ME SHOUTING "f--- u" at it more times than I ever did with Windows 95. Even the caps in the last statement was due to the Pi locking.

Today: Woke up to find Pi4 no longer handling audio - all streams are choppy.
Yesterday: VLC dies - freezes Pi if I do quick skip - takes forever to buffer a movie
Day before: Regular freezes
Chromium: Weak - only recently supported 108060fps - still weak compared to Mint version.
Web-apps: Many of the web apps I use are now incredibly slow on the Pi. One of my client's WordPress theme, Divi, takes up to 5 minutes to open the editor whereas before was 30 secs max.
Openshot (an MS Paint of simple video editors): Call me Mr Crash in the wonderful styles of Microsoft; standard lockup and reset needed with loss of work, or the special of the day - hang at around 95% rendered.

(Linux-related) Since day 1: Bluetooth sucks worse than 5 years ago. I had the exact same tearing and lag issues with Lubuntu 5 years ago and with different mice, the same occurs on Raspbian. For F's sake.

No way are you going to get anywhere near full speed potential without at least a Fan and an open case.

The Pi might be great for tinkering, robotics and all that, but it sucks big time as a desktop. It is Win95 levels of annoyance, frustration and downright crappiness we hated Microsoft for.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:44 am

What desktop grunt is needed for coding in schools?
You might be expecting too much for such a small, low cost computer.
I have been using my 4B1 for weeks as a desktop, since my Mint box crashed.

I found increasing the swap file size helps a lot.
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Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 am

chuUK,
It is Win95 levels of annoyance, frustration and downright crappiness we hated Microsoft for.
Those are not the reasons we hated MS back in the day and still have major reservations about.

Sounds like you are expecting way too much from the humble Pi.

Raspbian is perfectly fine.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jahboater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:03 am

Heater wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 am
Raspbian is perfectly fine.
And the 4GB Pi4 is a very decent platform to run it on.

Looks like I am having to go for a few weeks with just a Pi for a main computer (we are moving and all my big computers will be in storage). With the Pi4, lack of power is not something I am worried about.

chuUK
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:30 am

Maybe I've been unlucky.

I am quite realistic in my exceptions or the Pi - which is why we waited until 4 to buy them. We have 4gb models so more than enough grunt for web-apps and lightweight native app use. The heavy work is done on Macs.

As purchaser, the Pi4 was a dream computer for me: small, cheap, powerful enough and British - if only ARM hadn't been sold to SoftBank JP. For at least 50% of my team, the Pi fits hardware levels comfortably.

What they don't like at all - and I agree - is Raspbian and the daily volume of faults that require fixing. I ordered our Pis from 2 different suppliers. Maybe we have a bad batch- it is possible. But EVERY machine has had a string of problems.

It's not the power of the CPU, or the size of the RAM. All are comfortable on the 4. Rarely get 100% CPU use and never had above 2.8g RAM use.

It is a desktop computer - but with an OS from 2012.

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kennyc
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:17 am
...the editor whereas before was 30 secs max.
....
My God Man! 30 Seconds! What a POS.

:D :mrgreen: :roll:
Kenny A. Chaffin
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"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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kennyc
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 am

Heater wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 am
chuUK,
It is Win95 levels of annoyance, frustration and downright crappiness we hated Microsoft for.
Those are not the reasons we hated MS back in the day and still have major reservations about.

Sounds like you are expecting way too much from the humble Pi.

Raspbian is perfectly fine.
This!!
Kenny A. Chaffin
Blog: http://mansionsofthemind.blogspot.com/
Art: https://www.deviantart.com/kennyc
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:41 am

chuUK,
It is a desktop computer - but with an OS from 2012.
It's a computer with an OS which, being based on Debian, dates from about 1995.

I have been using Debian since about 1996/97, along with other Linux distros, on machines much less powerful and with less memory that the Pi4. There was no Windows in my life, Debian and friends were and are my desktops.

It was always and still is reliable.

Now, you mentioned "web apps". I presume you mean the tons of Javascript served up in web pages now a days. I would not expect those to perform well. They don't on my phone with a processor of comparable spec. A simple in browser calculation that takes a couple of seconds on Chrome on my PC takes over a minute on my phone. I have yet to try it on a Pi. Try for yourself : https://otaniemi.conveqs.fi:3000/public/fibo.html
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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davidcoton
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:56 am

@chuUK,

Although there are some issues with a new version of Debian on a new platform, you shouldn't generalise from your own experience to condemn the OS, when clearly most users find it satisfactory.

You need to find what is causing the problems on your particular setups, then you might be able to fix it instead of ranting (yes, I know a good rant can calm one down, but fixing it is even more satisfying and is what most forum users are about).

What does "vcgencmd get_throttled" say? The answer can be interpreted to see if there are either thermal or power problems.

How is your Pi cased? Do you have a heatsink and airflow (with or without a fan)? If you expect a desktop replacement, then consider what cooling arrangements an x86/64 PC requires!

What are you using as a PSU?
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jahboater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:30 am
the daily volume of faults that require fixing.
Either this is nonsense, or you have a faulty SD card, or your system management skills need improving.

As Linux distros go I find Rasbian very reliable indeed.
I have been using Linux professionally since its early days, and UNIX for years before that.
Raspbain is surprisingly robust.

chuUK
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:17 am

davidcoton wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:56 am
@chuUK,

Although there are some issues with a new version of Debian on a new platform, you shouldn't generalise from your own experience to condemn the OS, when clearly most users find it satisfactory.

You need to find what is causing the problems on your particular setups, then you might be able to fix it instead of ranting (yes, I know a good rant can calm one down, but fixing it is even more satisfying and is what most forum users are about).

What does "vcgencmd get_throttled" say? The answer can be interpreted to see if there are either thermal or power problems.

How is your Pi cased? Do you have a heatsink and airflow (with or without a fan)? If you expect a desktop replacement, then consider what cooling arrangements an x86/64 PC requires!

What are you using as a PSU?

No case on Pi with Shim fans on them, attached to back of monitors vertically with space behind and in front of the board. Air-conditioned office. No heat issues after we bought the fans shimms. Wi-Fi to NAS, no local drives. Bluetooth keyboards and mice - all of them lag. PSU is Pi4 offical as are cables.

As you say above, "most users find it satisfactory" with Raspbian and I'm sure it is. Given the evolution and history of the Pi, it is a notable achievement to have produced the SBC and it's own distro...

But, my experience over the last 3 weeks of using Pi4's as a light-use desktop replacement in a production environment (reasonable demand) is what it is... unpleasant and unreliable.

To the chap that said it was my skills that were lacking... don't make me laugh, Sunshine. In the real world, where people try to make money from the skills they have in computing - in particular the media world I work in - the Pi4 isn't impressing.

The Foundation is appealing to my demographic with this model - not tinkers, robot people or goodness knows what else. At the moment, it is failing but as I have told my team, it is a new product, cutting-edge in its field and price. These are just teething problems. But I don't think my sys admin chap is going to believe me anymore though.

What to do? Send them back or hang on for a bit longer and pray that something like the VLC burnout of a few days ago doesn't repeat and mean we have to dig out the old PC's and run them as backup.

by kennyc » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 am: "My God Man! 30 Seconds! What a POS. "

Not really. That was on a 6-year old PC running Mint with 8GB of RAM. The rendering Macs halve that time. A web-app taking 30 secs to open isn't a killer when the equivalent processing done through a dedicated app would be longer. Remember the joys of Dreamweaver!!!? An OS that fails to render PWA's quickly is going to fail.

jahboater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:25 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:17 am
But, my experience over the last 3 weeks of using Pi4's as a light-use desktop replacement in a production environment (reasonable demand) is what it is... unpleasant and unreliable.

To the chap that said it was my skills that were lacking... don't make me laugh, Sunshine. In the real world, where people try to make money from the skills they have in computing - in particular the media world I work in - the Pi4 isn't impressing.
Then don't use a Pi4. It is not suitable for your requirements.
Simple.

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