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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:35 am

You think now that the Pi is 64-bit Distros will start making ARM editions for the RasPi4?
The Pi hardware has been 64bit compatible for several years already. If nothing has appeared by now, best not to hold your breath.
It takes time and people have been making 64bit OS's for Pi's.
Raspberry Pi Foundation need to support ALL their products.

Hey if you want, you can go off and use BuildRoot to make your own OS.
Lots of behind the scenes stuff has been going on to get the Pi's into mainstream Linux.
The Buster version has lot of Pi stuff in it.

Now that people can get Pi4's I expect the next version of Debian to include even more stuff, perhaps.
Debian is just one of many Linux Distributions and Raspbian a a version of Debian.
There is some bias, as Linus is not known as a big fan of ARM.
Can someone please send him a Pi4B4 :lol:

What other "Desktop" Computer is there that allow you to swap OS's in minutes?
That includes boot time.
Try them all, then try them again in 6months.

I was running Ubuntu Mate on Pi's years ago.
Hmm had to check - May 2015, wonder if it is any better, that was before Pi3? :o
Time flies, 4 years ago.
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jamesh
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:36 am

I suppose I could be described as a 'power' user, in that I write software, build kernels etc. That, some would say, requires a decent desktop computer. And yet EVERYTHING I do nowadays can be done on a Pi4.

I use Google Drive instead of LibreOffice or Word, that works fine on the Pi4 in Chromium (but then, so does LibreOffice, so plenty of choice there)

I can use VSCode on the Pi4 (and Pi3!) for code editing and it works really well.

I can compile kernels on Pi4, not as fast as on my i7 laptop running Ubuntu, but well enough.

I can play videos from youtube in the background and listen to music via headphones while doing all of the above, on a Pi4. And I can be using a 4k monitor to get loads of stuff on the screen, or 2x1080p monitors.

So, even though this is a tiny ARM based device, I would have no problems doing my actual job with it! In fact, I am going to be replacing my fathers very old Intel x86 Atom based computer (Acer Revo) with a Pi4, because it's so much faster. Everything he need to do can be done on the Pi4.

So yes, its can easily be used as a desktop computer. The CPU architecture is irrelevant (as is the argument between 32 and 64bit )
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gordon77
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:05 am

" very old Intel x86 Atom based computer (Acer Revo) with a Pi4, because it's so much faster. "

Good comparison, l have one of those Acer's and it's slow but would be described as a desktop. For me describing a Pi4 as a desktop means you can do 'normal' things on it such as browsing, mail, writing, photo editing, coding etc at an acceptable speed, which it does for me.
Last edited by gordon77 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

jahboater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:44 am

I am perhaps a little unusual in that I considered the previous model, the Pi3B+, to be a perfectly capable desktop computer.

The new Pi4 is dramatically faster in all the important areas: disk, memory, cpu, graphics, network

Maybe, just maybe, when my costly and power hungry Intel PC dies of old age, I may not bother replacing it and instead just use a Pi4 as my main computer.

As others have said, x86 or ARM, 32-bit or 64-bit, shouldn't matter now as most sensibly written software is portable.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:55 am

dont have the RPi4B yet but I have both the RPi3B and RPi3B+

The RPi3B and RPi3B+ are on top of my desk right now
The RPi3B and RPi3B+ are both "computers" (connected directly to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, LAN, and with installed OS and productivity software)

so... for me the RPi3B and RPi3B+ on top of my desk are "desktop computers"....
....where I can browse the internet, make and read emails, make documents, printing documents, those normal things anyone does with a "computer" (also watch videos, play music files, edit pictures/images, play games...etc... etc)

when the first RPi4B arrives, it will become a desktop computer.....
nudging the RPi3B to becoming a file server....
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:03 pm

I wonder how the OP thinks a desktop computer can't be powered by a different processor, in the old days, MACs used a different processor, & they were used as desktops & workstations, would s/he consider a workstation as not a desktop computer also(?). :lol:

Presently, desktops are mainly powered by Intel or AMD, different processors, is one a desktop & the other not!? :?

Of course the RPi can be used as a desktop computer, I've been using a RPi3B as my desktop computer off & on since I bought it, it's a bit slow, but not much slower than my Asus EeeBox, which was also classed as a desktop computer. ;)

It's what a computer can do that defines its usefulness, & a RPi can be a desktop computer. 8-)

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 pm

I woudn't advertise the RPI as a desktop computer (I didnt know it was), yes it could be used for that but it's a bit of a stretch.
The general expectations for the word "Desktop Computer" is a powerful device used for working efficiently, you don't care much about its size or power consumption because it's on a desk and connected to mains...

The Raspberry IS small and low-power, it's more like an experimentation device, close to a low end laptop in terms of performance, which can be used as an ultra portable "on the go" computer ready to plug on a screen and a keyboard.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:50 pm

okenido wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 pm
I woudn't advertise the RPI as a desktop computer (I didnt know it was), yes it could be used for that but it's a bit of a stretch.
No it isn't. The Pi4 is great, and even the Pi3 made a passable device for the desktop
okenido wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 pm
The general expectations for the word "Desktop Computer" is a powerful device used for working efficiently, you don't care much about its size or power consumption because it's on a desk and connected to mains...
No it isn't. Desktop computers run the whole gamut of performance.
okenido wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 pm
The Raspberry IS small and low-power, it's more like an experimentation device, close to a low end laptop in terms of performance, which can be used as an ultra portable "on the go" computer ready to plug on a screen and a keyboard.
That makes more sense, so you are comparing the Pi favourably with a desktop computer (a laptop is also a desktop computer that you can move around!).
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Even my old Pi2 is/ was acceptable desktop with 1 GFLOPS which is enough for good work in Libre Office. Now you have cca 16 FLOPS.

RAM is scarce tho.
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:33 pm

The RPi4 with a full memory load probably blows off my x86-64 desktop. I tried to run the RPi3 as a desktop and it wasn't speed so much as the 1 gig memory limit that caused me to give up on it...I like to open a few more browser tabs than it would allow. That, the slow USB 2.0 and so on were to blame. I bought a mini ITX mobo based on the Celeron J3455 for its low power consumption, no fan, higher memory and USB 3.0. I was too impatient or RPF was too slow, as today, I would buy the RPi4 and I still may when the introductory rush drops off. Another big factor is that I can't get Mint 19 xfce on an RPi. That plus having to put up with the LTS version of Firefox.

I have various generations of RPi working 24/7 around the house doing jobs that you could never do with an Intel/AMD desktop of any caliber for lack of GPIO bus and that is still a feature of the RPi 4.

Still, I would have to say that the RPi 4 will provide the basis for a very competent desktop. As for the OP, try it first and if you don't like it you will have the basis of a complaint. Otherwise....give the RPF devs a big round of applause for an exciting product introduction.
Last edited by wh7qq on Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:43 pm

Musketeer wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 pm
Even my old Pi2 is/ was acceptable desktop with 1 GFLOPS which is enough for good work in Libre Office. Now you have cca 16 FLOPS.

RAM is scarce tho.
Scarce? 4GB is all my secondary laptop has!

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:43 pm

Musketeer wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 pm
RAM is scarce tho.
Not any more.
4GB is very useful.

I can do "make -j 5" without needing extra swap!

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:00 pm

Another attribute for a desktop computer is how quiet it is, & the RPi scores there, my latest 'real' desktop runs silently, very much quieter than most of my laptops even. :D

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:21 pm

In this day and age isn't the OS becoming irrelevant for MOST users?
Now I exclude anyone who is on this forum from "MOST users" - we all want our favourite nerdy tools to run on it.

"MOST users" only want a browser, an office suite (well word processor and spreadsheet) and an email client.
Individually, they all run fine (on just about any RPi) only question is how fast!

I got my RPi4 / 4G yesterday and had set it up but not played with it - until now! So I am running LibreOffice Writer, LibreOffice Calc, Chromium with 3 tabs and Chromium with Gmail in a single tab - AND IT IS RUNNING AND RESPONDING PERFECTLY !!!!

I must admit I am a bit surprised - but delighted.

As for the OS, these days I run the same programmes on an Android phone, a Chromebook, a LinuxMint laptop and a W10 laptop. I really am beginning to not care what OS they run on .....

Hence the reason I say that these days the OS is irrelevant......

Discuss...

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:33 pm

OK, so running all the above programmes ( plus a couple more like a Google Drive with a couple of documents open) give me a new warning that I hadn't seen before - a thermometer - in the red!
When I checked the CPU temperature it is running at 81C.

OK, so I guess the heat sink is a good idea if you are making it work hard!

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:41 pm

I think most of the "Pi4B is a desktop system" are driven of Dr. Upton's remark in the announcement blog that the Pi4B is equivalent to a entry level desktop computer. Going from there to advertise the Pi4B as a "desktop computer" is a bit of stretch without a few caveats. For many, many people it is certainly fast enough and--by spec'ing a 2GB or better model--has sufficient RAM for probably 99% of what 90% of people do with "desktop" computers.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm

Could a Pi4 function as my desktop - not a chance.

Could it be my Wife's - maybe, but she is impatient and I would hear about it.

Could it be my Mom's desktop - sure.

Bottom line the whole "desktop" thing is marketing (not quite) BS. It highlights a big step up in performance in a way a lot of folks will understand. They'll also sell some units with folks giving it a go - whether they keep it as a desktop or not.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:22 pm

jerrm wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm
Could a Pi4 function as my desktop - not a chance.
What are you running that has no ARM and no Linux equivalent?
Could it be my Wife's - maybe, but she is impatient and I would hear about it.
By all accounts, the Pi4B2 or Pi4B4 is quite responsive for typical workloads. Why don't you have her try one (it's a cheap experiment)?
Could it be my Mom's desktop - sure.
I'm not surprised.
Bottom line the whole "desktop" thing is marketing (not quite) BS. It highlights a big step up in performance in a way a lot of folks will understand. They'll also sell some units with folks giving it a go - whether they keep it as a desktop or not.
It is and it isn't. It all comes down to what you mean when you say "desktop computer" and what conditions you put on that.

All of that said, the Pi4B will not serve as a full desptop replacement for either my wife or myself for a rather simple reason. We both spend quite a bit of time playing an MMORPG that only runs on x86 hardware. At present, besides the x86 constraint, there is--effectively--a public beta test going for a 64-bit client. The game client struggles to stay under 4GB. Note that I didn't say that it only runs on MS Windows. A set of files to run it under WINE has been made available, so Linux is okay.

Other that...what my wife uses is a browser (check), LibreOffice for writing up to novel length works (check), and PuTTY to access a unix based e-mail and usenet account (check). So, except for the game, a Pi4B would do everything she does with a desktop computer.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 pm

So there we have it.

A pointless argument over the definition of "Desktop Computer"

Such a nebulous term that we all have our own opinion about it.

Reality is:

It's a computer.

It sits on my desk top.

Where no other computer has sat since my Atari 520ST back in the 1980's.

Ergo, the Pi is a desktop computer.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:44 pm

Here is first overclock in Java: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=243741

1 GB is scarce on Pi 2 of course!
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:06 pm

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 am
Not necessarily, I'm simply saying something like Chrome or Firefox Quantum would be required to be secure, as well as be capable of running sites using newer tools.
As someone who is literally required to use Chrome (not Chromium!) for work, and values privacy a lot so uses Firefox Quantum for personal stuff - I can't agree more.

I'd probably run Exagear Desktop if I wanted to use Pi for work, though.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:22 pm
Why don't you have her try one (it's a cheap experiment)?
Arguably, it is no longer cheap. $45, or more likely $55 for the SBC with adequate amount of RAM. Expensive 3A PSU. Expensive heatsink-case, or regular case + heatsink + fan, because the beast runs hot like hell.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be getting a Pi4 or two immediately as the hype dials down a bit. But calling Raspberry Pi 4 cheap is simply not fair.
Last edited by Starlight5 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 pm

Bruce Crowthorne wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:33 pm
OK, so running all the above programmes ( plus a couple more like a Google Drive with a couple of documents open) give me a new warning that I hadn't seen before - a thermometer - in the red!
When I checked the CPU temperature it is running at 81C.

OK, so I guess the heat sink is a good idea if you are making it work hard!
Well the manual does say the Pi4 needs a heatsink for anything above light loads.

Yes, I don't even have a Pi4 and I've read the manual. :P
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:26 pm

Heater wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 pm
.
.
It's a computer.
.
It sits on my desk top.
.
...the Pi is a desktop computer.
The OP probably turned tail already after being "...bombed back to the stone age..." (to quote a line from a pc game) in defense of the RPi4B...
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:32 pm

Heater wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 pm
Ergo, the Pi is a desktop computer.
As far as I can tell, the Pi is not being advertised as a desktop replacement. The announcement actually said
Eben Upton wrote:For the first time we provide a PC-like level of performance for most users, while retaining the interfacing capabilities and hackability of the classic Raspberry Pi line.
Rather than attacking a straw man, it seems more reasonable to note that having PC-like performance is very different than being a PC replacement.

A more focused discussion of PC-like performance appears here:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 5#p1485540

In summary, compared to the cheapest PC that can be bought new in the stores,
  • The aggregate performance of four Cortex-A72 cores is about the same two x86 cores.
  • Gigabit Ethernet and WiFi are the same speed.
  • The 4GB model has the same amount of RAM.
  • The USB ports are the same speed.
  • The video output resolutions and dual monitor features are similar.
While none of the above imply the Pi 4B can function as a desktop replacement, there was no official claim to that effect either.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:04 pm

Starlight5 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:06 pm
Arguably, it is no longer cheap. $45, or more likely $55 for the SBC with adequate amount of RAM. Expensive 3A PSU. Expensive heatsink-case, or regular case + heatsink + fan, because the beast runs hot like hell.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be getting a Pi4 or two immediately as the hype dials down a bit. But calling Raspberry Pi 4 cheap is simply not fair.
Arguably at $45, the more or less recommended for general desktop use, it is still cheap. Since the first Pi cam out at $35 in 2012, how much more would that be when accounting for inflation since then? A 3A PSU at $8 is expensive? I don't think so... Case: $5. Heatsink..maybe $1, but for web browsing/word "processing" (we all know what a "food processor" does to food, so what does a "word processor" do to words?)/e-mail is probably fairly light load, so a heatsink might not be needed. An alternative (albeit more expensive at $20) would be to add a PoE HAT and enable the fan.

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