Gamegenorator
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Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am

The Pi 4 is being advertised as "Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer" that can do anything your current computer can but is just slower and more power efficient. But on the Desktop side of things, it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer. Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:47 am

Where is it carved in stone that a desktop computer absolutely must run a Microsoft OS? Other that in Redmond, WA, of course.

There are plenty of people that use a Linux system for a desktop computer. The Pi is the same, only smaller, rather slower, but much cheaper and requires far less power.

Stating that the Pi4B is (or can be) a desktop computer is making plain that the latest Pi is powerful enough to encroach on that market...all while running on 15W or less.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:08 am

Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
You are incorrect.

But what do you do with your Desktop Computer may not be what others do with theirs.

A Pi4B4 when I get one, will become my code development box for making Pi apps that will run on embedded Pi's.
Currently at home I use a Linux Mint Celeron Duo with 2GB :(

With two screens, two mice, two keyboards I can now use it for teaching the kid coding.
That is much more than what my normal Desktop PC does.

"Desktop top level performance" I think were the words used, not desktop replacement, which it can do too within reason.
Will it play Roblox?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:24 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:47 am
Where is it carved in stone that a desktop computer absolutely must run a Microsoft OS? Other that in Redmond, WA, of course.

There are plenty of people that use a Linux system for a desktop computer. The Pi is the same, only smaller, rather slower, but much cheaper and requires far less power.

Stating that the Pi4B is (or can be) a desktop computer is making plain that the latest Pi is powerful enough to encroach on that market...all while running on 15W or less.
I didn't say a Microsoft OS, I mean any full Linux os, I dare you to get full Ubuntu running on the Pi4 no matter how slow it may be, you can't because they don't support the ARM CPU. How can they advertise it as a desktop computer when it's incompatible with so much?

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:08 am
Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
You are incorrect.

But what do you do with your Desktop Computer may not be what others do with theirs.

A Pi4B4 when I get one, will become my code development box for making Pi apps that will run on embedded Pi's.
Currently at home I use a Linux Mint Celeron Duo with 2GB :(

With two screens, two mice, two keyboards I can now use it for teaching the kid coding.
That is much more than what my normal Desktop PC does.

"Desktop top level performance" I think were the words used, not desktop replacement, which it can do too within reason.
Will it play Roblox?
I'm not talking about the processing power, I think it would be "reasonable". I'm talking about the CPU being ARM architecture, nothing is compatible with it. Tell me, can you get Linux Mint running on a PI (No matter how fast/slow it may be)? No, because Mint dosen;t support ARM, and neither does so many other distros, they had to make a custom version of Debian just to and a reasonable OS on the PI.

I'm not looking to fight, I just don't understand, if I really am wrong, please correct me, my current annoyance is with the CPU architecture, not the processing power.

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 am

Gamegenorator,
Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
You are incorrect.

What are you actually referring to when you say "incompatible"?

I can only guess you mean Windows games and other applications. Well, yes, those legacy Windows programs are not compatible with the modern desktop computer. Who cares anyway, they are only of historical interest?

As it happens I use an old PC and run a Windows 10 as my day to day desktop computer. Guess what? All the software I use on there is open source and usable on Linux. For Intel x86, ARM, and others. I can, and do, swap to Linux PC's all the time and hardly notice the difference.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

gkreidl
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:34 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:24 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:47 am
Where is it carved in stone that a desktop computer absolutely must run a Microsoft OS? Other that in Redmond, WA, of course.

There are plenty of people that use a Linux system for a desktop computer. The Pi is the same, only smaller, rather slower, but much cheaper and requires far less power.

Stating that the Pi4B is (or can be) a desktop computer is making plain that the latest Pi is powerful enough to encroach on that market...all while running on 15W or less.
I didn't say a Microsoft OS, I mean any full Linux os, I dare you to get full Ubuntu running on the Pi4 no matter how slow it may be, you can't because they don't support the ARM CPU. How can they advertise it as a desktop computer when it's incompatible with so much?
This is wrong again.
1) Ubuntu does support ARM CPUs. It may take a while, before you can get an Ubuntu version for the RPi though.
2) Ubuntu is basically a clone of Debian unstable (with a few additions). Usually everything which is available for Ubuntu is also available for Debian/Raspbian. Raspbian is far better for the RPi because it contains a number of additions/patches etc. provided by the Foundation (or the community).
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:36 am

Gamegenorator,
No, because Mint dosen;t support ARM, and neither does so many other distros...
There are quite enough Linux based operating systems that do run on ARM and the Pi. It is of little consequence that some do not.
.., they had to make a custom version of Debian just to and a reasonable OS on the PI.
So what is the problem. There you have a Debian based operating system running on the Pi.

As it happens I have been running actual Debian on my Pi 3 collection for a year and a half now. I don't see what the issue is you are alluding to.
I'm not looking to fight, I just don't understand, if I really am wrong, please correct me, my current annoyance is with the CPU architecture, not the processing power.
Why is the CPU architecture bothering you?

Most of the time I don't need to know or care what the architecture is I'm using. Most things run the same on Intel and ARM. The only giveaway being CPU performance and memory space. But that is to be expected.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:09 am

Heater wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:36 am
Gamegenorator,
No, because Mint dosen;t support ARM, and neither does so many other distros...
There are quite enough Linux based operating systems that do run on ARM and the Pi. It is of little consequence that some do not.
.., they had to make a custom version of Debian just to and a reasonable OS on the PI.
So what is the problem. There you have a Debian based operating system running on the Pi.

As it happens I have been running actual Debian on my Pi 3 collection for a year and a half now. I don't see what the issue is you are alluding to.
I'm not looking to fight, I just don't understand, if I really am wrong, please correct me, my current annoyance is with the CPU architecture, not the processing power.
Why is the CPU architecture bothering you?

Most of the time I don't need to know or care what the architecture is I'm using. Most things run the same on Intel and ARM. The only giveaway being CPU performance and memory space. But that is to be expected.
I disagree that there are many operating systems that support it but to move to a different point, it isn't just operating systems we're talking about here, ARM also lacks software support, a few examples would be, Openoffice, Atom, Steam, Brave (browser), Firefox (Anything above the ESR version which doesn't support practically any extensions), and many more.

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rpdom
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:40 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:09 am
I disagree that there are many operating systems that support it but to move to a different point, it isn't just operating systems we're talking about here, ARM also lacks software support, a few examples would be, Openoffice, Atom, Steam, Brave (browser), Firefox (Anything above the ESR version which doesn't support practically any extensions), and many more.
Well, OpenOffice has been replaced by LibreOffice which runs quite happily on the Pi. I don't know about most of the others, but pretty much any app that I run on my Linux laptop will also run on the Pi.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:41 am

Wow, so particular in the software you want to run.
I had no problem with Chromium and Firefox in Gentoo64 on a Pi3B+
Those should be better on a Pi4.

Atom is just a JS editor, big deal, lots of code editors around.
I have used the Fifth Browser on Pi's.
Looks like you love your JS stuff.
You do know JS can be slow?

Software gets better, with the Pi4 more stuff will work better.
And when we get more 64bit OS's you will have more support.
There is lots of new stuff in Buster than means more distributions will now work on the Pi4.
After someone gets around to compiling them.

So to be a bit mean - go away for 6-12 months, come back when more is working.
Or go get a Pi4 and see if you can use it and find alternatives to your favs.
The purpose of Pi is to teach and learn, using is secondary(tertiary?)
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:59 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:41 am
Wow, so particular in the software you want to run.
I had no problem with Chromium and Firefox in Gentoo64 on a Pi3B+
Those should be better on a Pi4.

Atom is just a JS editor, big deal, lots of code editors around.
I have used the Fifth Browser on Pi's.
Looks like you love your JS stuff.
You do know JS can be slow?

Software gets better, with the Pi4 more stuff will work better.
And when we get more 64bit OS's you will have more support.
There is lots of new stuff in Buster than means more distributions will now work on the Pi4.
After someone gets around to compiling them.

So to be a bit mean - go away for 6-12 months, come back when more is working.
Or go get a Pi4 and see if you can use it and find alternatives to your favs.
The purpose of Pi is to teach and learn, using is secondary(tertiary?)
These are just examples, what if I need to get a slicer running on my Pi? Nope. When you say you've gotten Firefox working, do you mean Firefox Quantum?

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:00 am

rpdom wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:40 am
Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:09 am
I disagree that there are many operating systems that support it but to move to a different point, it isn't just operating systems we're talking about here, ARM also lacks software support, a few examples would be, Openoffice, Atom, Steam, Brave (browser), Firefox (Anything above the ESR version which doesn't support practically any extensions), and many more.
Well, OpenOffice has been replaced by LibreOffice which runs quite happily on the Pi. I don't know about most of the others, but pretty much any app that I run on my Linux laptop will also run on the Pi.
Ok, would you mind listing me some of those softwares?

cspan
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:01 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am
The Pi 4 is being advertised as "Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer" that can do anything your current computer can but is just slower and more power efficient. But on the Desktop side of things, it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer. Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
You are incorrect, because you can do desktop things with the Raspberry Pi. Like word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, email, web browsing, coding, photo viewing and editing, etc. No one has claimed you can do these things with the exact same software you're used to. But you can still do them ... and in many cases, convert file formats to those you're used to. I even do it in a business context with people who are locked into Word and Excel as unquestioned standards.

Think of it this way, via analogy. You are used to Pilot G2 pens, Pentel 0.5 mm mechanical pencils, and a Moleskine notebook.

Someone comes along and offers you some BIC Cristal medium ballpoint pens, Ticonderoga No. 2 pencils (and a sharpener!), and yellow legal pads. They're a bit less sleek, but they offer 90% cost savings.

Your argument appears to boil down to this: "I can't do my usual writing with these tools."

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 am

cspan wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:01 am
Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am
The Pi 4 is being advertised as "Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer" that can do anything your current computer can but is just slower and more power efficient. But on the Desktop side of things, it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer. Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.
You are incorrect, because you can do desktop things with the Raspberry Pi. Like word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, email, web browsing, coding, photo viewing and editing, etc. No one has claimed you can do these things with the exact same software you're used to. But you can still do them ... and in many cases, convert file formats to those you're used to. I even do it in a business context with people who are locked into Word and Excel as unquestioned standards.

Think of it this way, via analogy. You are used to Pilot G2 pens, Pentel 0.5 mm mechanical pencils, and a Moleskine notebook.

Someone comes along and offers you some BIC Cristal medium ballpoint pens, Ticonderoga No. 2 pencils (and a sharpener!), and yellow legal pads. They're a bit less sleek, but they offer 90% cost savings.

Your argument appears to boil down to this: "I can't do my usual writing with these tools."
To a degree, yes, however setting that aside it also requires you to use slightly inferior tools, can you get Firefox Quantum running on a Pi? Can you get full Chrome running on a Pi? etc.

cspan
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:41 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 am
To a degree, yes, however setting that aside it also requires you to use slightly inferior tools, can you get Firefox Quantum running on a Pi? Can you get full Chrome running on a Pi? etc.
OK, it seems you are focused on the specific tools used to perform tasks. Your original post asks why it can be legitimately considered for desktop use ... due to (alleged) incompatibility "with anything to make it a real desktop computer. " I mistakenly thought you were referring to file format conversions and so forth.

Sounds like you're defining "a real desktop computer" as one that can (for example) run Chrome or Firefox Quantum, not simply one that can do web browsing, etc. I'm not sure many people would define a desktop computer by the tools it uses to perform functions, rather than by the general ability to perform those functions. It's probably best to acknowledge that the Pi is not for you, and you should move along and buy something that meets your idiosyncratic definition of a "real desktop computer."

New analogy:

Person 1: "I need an automobile to take to university"

Person 2: "How about a Honda Fit (Jazz)?"

Person 1: "But it can't hold all my stuff or do 200 km/h on the Autobahn!"

Person 2: "You didn't say you had so much stuff, or needed to go so fast! In that case you need something else."

Person 1: "But Honda claims the Fit is a real car, suitable for university students!"

Person 2: "Check, please!"
Last edited by cspan on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 am

Sakaki on the 1.4.2 Gentoo64, which is not yet available for Pi4.
This release sees a number of significant version bumps to the bundled packages: for example, GCC from v8 to v9, Clang from v7 to v8, Chromium from v72 to v74, Firefox Quantum from v65 to v67 etc.
Not sure about Firefox Quantum in Raspbian.

WebGL is my fun Browser breaker test.
How good the new Pi4 is I won't know until 5mins after I get home today, my 1st 4B1, it's arrived :D
Will Aquarium run?
https://webglsamples.org/

The Pi4 has the new VideoCore 6 which is now OpenGLES 3.2, so it should do WebGL2.0.
Assuming it gets compiled with that switch on?
Lots of compiling will need to be done by the experts to tweak the best performance.

Right now we have a single 32bit OS Raspbian OS, it may not be optimized for Pi4/VC6.
Some things are switched off until bugs are sorted.

What happens when all those 64bit OS distributions get their hands on the Pi4?
The 4B4 is no longer a "toy" computer, but I need to wait until they are available.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 am
Sakaki on the 1.4.2 Gentoo64, which is not yet available for Pi4.
This release sees a number of significant version bumps to the bundled packages: for example, GCC from v8 to v9, Clang from v7 to v8, Chromium from v72 to v74, Firefox Quantum from v65 to v67 etc.
Not sure about Firefox Quantum in Raspbian.

WebGL is my fun Browser breaker test.
How good the new Pi4 is I won't know until 5mins after I get home today, my 1st 4B1, it's arrived :D
Will Aquarium run?
https://webglsamples.org/

The Pi4 has the new VideoCore 6 which is now OpenGLES 3.2, so it should do WebGL2.0.
Assuming it gets compiled with that switch on?
Lots of compiling will need to be done by the experts to tweak the best performance.

Right now we have a single 32bit OS Raspbian OS, it may not be optimized for Pi4/VC6.
Some things are switched off until bugs are sorted.

What happens when all those 64bit OS distributions get their hands on the Pi4?
The 4B4 is no longer a "toy" computer, but I need to wait until they are available.
You think now that the Pi is 64-bit Distros will start making ARM editions for the RasPi4?

Gamegenorator
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 am

cspan wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:41 am
Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 am
To a degree, yes, however setting that aside it also requires you to use slightly inferior tools, can you get Firefox Quantum running on a Pi? Can you get full Chrome running on a Pi? etc.
OK, it seems you are focused on the specific tools used to perform tasks. Your original post asks why it can be legitimately considered for desktop use ... due to (alleged) incompatibility "with anything to make it a real desktop computer. " I mistakenly thought you were referring to file format conversions and so forth.

Sounds like you're defining "a real desktop computer" as one that can (for example) run Chrome or Firefox Quantum, not simply one that can do web browsing, etc. I'm not sure many people would define a desktop computer by the tools it uses to perform functions, rather than by the general ability to perform those functions. It's probably best to acknowledge that the Pi is not for you, and you should move along and buy something that meets your idiosyncratic definition of a "real desktop computer."

New analogy:

Person 1: "I need an automobile to take to university"

Person 2: "How about a Honda Fit (Jazz)?"

Person 1: "But it can't hold all my stuff or do 200 km/h on the Autobahn!"

Person 2: "You didn't say you had so much stuff, or needed to go so fast! In that case you need something else."

Person 1: "But Honda claims the Fit is a real car, suitable for university students!"

Person 2: "Check, please!"
Not necessarily, I'm simply saying something like Chrome or Firefox Quantum would be required to be secure, as well as be capable of running sites using newer tools.

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:55 am

Gamegenorator,
I disagree that there are many operating systems that support it...
You can disagree. Perhaps many Linux variant don't.

So what? It's all Linux. Ultimately all those different distros are running the same Open Source software. More than enough of them run on ARM.
ARM also lacks software support, a few examples would be...
Openoffice - Is now Libre Office. Runs fine.

Atom - is based on Electron, which is based on Google's V8 Javascript Engine, which is in Chrome. Chrome runs fine on ARM, if Atom does not that is not a technical ARM issue. Meanwhile Microsoft's Visual Studio Code editor is also based on Electron and V8 and runs fine on ARM. Which shows that Atom could also. But who cares, VS Code is a great replacement for Atom. I suspect Atom to be discontinued soon as both Atom and VS Code now belong to Microsoft sinc ethey bought Github, the creators of Atom.

But who cares anyway, there are many great text editors that run fine on ARM.

Steam - No idea. I don't waste my time on games. Besides I thought we were talking about Desktop PC's not game boxes.

Brave (browser) - Who cares, never heard of it.

Firefox - Runs fine.

Of course you can always find examples of software that won't run but the bottom line is that almost anything worth having to make a "desktop computer" runs on Linux be it on x86 or ARM. Which is why it's quite reasonable to advertise a Pi 4 as a desktop computer.

If the software you want to use does not run there, blame the creators of that software, not the Pi or ARM. This is 2019 not 1980, for goodness sake, software should be portable by now.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

LTolledo
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:11 am

Gamegenorator,

If you find yourself incompatible with the RPi4B (and its software suite) as a desktop computer then let it be.
its not for you!
your mind is already set.
so just forget it!
go find something else.

some of us are compatible even with the RPi3B as a desktop computer and will be more than happy doing that in the RPi4B
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:19 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 am
You think now that the Pi is 64-bit Distros will start making ARM editions for the RasPi4?
The Pi hardware has been 64bit compatible for several years already. If nothing has appeared by now, best not to hold your breath.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:29 am

Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am
The Pi 4 is being advertised as "Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer" that can do anything your current computer can but is just slower and more power efficient. But on the Desktop side of things, it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer. Please tell me if I'm incorrect, but I just can't see the Pi being used as a desktop computer.

How does one define Desktop Computer ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_computer
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:45 am

We already have 64 bit Linux distributions for the Pi. I have been running 64 bit Debian on my Pi 3 for a year and a half.

Why are you so hung up that some distros choose not to support ARM or the Pi in particular? We have others that do. We can get the same stuff done.

You know, I used Linux as my desktop OS on PC's for work and play exclusively since 1997. Mostly on machines a lot less powerful than a Pi 3. Pretty much everything I used is now available for ARM and the Pi. Plus a lot more newer things besides.

I conclude then that ARMs and the Pi are quite usable as desk top computers.

I would have a lot more sympathy for your argument if you had mentioned the one and only program from the Windows world that I love dearly. LTSpice from Linear Technology. If you are into electronics LTSpice is an excellent circuit simulator. Sadly only available for x86 Windows.

Or you could have mentioned essential tools that stop me from using ARM like the Quartus tools from Intel. Quartus is used for FPGA development. I'm about to overcome that problem by switching to Lattice FPGAs for which Open Source tool chains exist that run anywhere.

Most people however would not consider these things to be typical of desktop computer users tools.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:50 am

fruitofthe loom,
How does one define Desktop Computer ?
Funny thing is, ever since IBM PC compatible "desktop computers" have been around, for me they have been those horrible, big, noisy, power sucking, ugly boxes that go under my desk.

In fact, that is still the case here. I have a bunch of Pi on my desk top right now. The PC is kept out of site, out of the way.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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