jahboater
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:11 pm

glynallinson wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:50 pm
@jamesh
I think the majority of us are really really happy with what all you guys and gals at the Raspberry Pi Foundation have done.
Don't let the few whiners ruin everyone's accomplishments.
+1

Fabulous achievement, especially considering the price.

My 4GB model arrived today but I wasn't in to sign for it. Grrrrrr ...

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:15 pm

vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:25 pm
So, not sure if this is a mistake or not.

But looking at the manual for the Pi 4 i received today, it shows a 8GB ram variant???

Is this TRUE??
:shock:
Yup, typo. We haven't released an 8GB version! It's 1,2, or 4. We've found that 1 is best for headless, 2 for desktop (even lots of Chromium tabs) and 4 is best for dev work with big compiles.
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jahboater
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:22 pm

This Pi4 release is very "rounded".
I mean, the disk speed, memory size and speed, cpu speed, graphics speed, and network speed have all improved.
Much better than increasing one single metric which just moves the bottleneck to something else.

And its an even numbered release - never a bad thing :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:24 pm
Do you know what? I find talking about what you want in the the next product the day after we release a brand new product we have been working on for years quite disrespectful to the engineers involved. It's like say "Yeah, whatever, you should have done this". Can people not just be happy that we've released the biggest upgrade to the Pi range ever, we've released it 6 months earlier than expected, it's loads more powerful, and we've kept the same price, and it's basically pretty awesome?
Even though I don't have one in my hands yet, the Pi4B is the Pi I've been waiting for. It has every spec I could want--and more besides. So, kudos to you and the rest of the team. You've produced a truly fantastic product. In addition, you are probably generating many sleepless nights among those trying to compete with the Pi. Once again, the RPT has, I think, stolen a march on other SBC board makers.

tl;dr: Yes it is AWESOME.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:33 pm

i486 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:43 pm
Only SATA port is missing.
But with USB 3, you don't need it. And besides, while one could meep about wanting a single SATA connector, the Pi4B has *two* USB 3 ports.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:44 pm

vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:25 pm
So, not sure if this is a mistake or not.

But looking at the manual for the Pi 4 i recieved today, it shows a 8GB ram variant???

Is this TRUE??
:shock:
I spotted a reference yesterday, in which one of the engineers mentioned that the memory controller in the VC6 has 35 address lines. My immediate reaction was that (a) if they are all exposed, and (b) the traces can be routed on the PCB, then--theoretically--there could be a 32GB Pi4B.

alphanumeric
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:46 pm

laurent wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:04 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:32 pm
laurent wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:21 pm
I'm thinking on a question right now : as its name self indicates, a HAT add-on is attached on top. But with the CPU reaching 80°C, may is there a potential problem regarding some HAT ?
Will it be more safe for HAT designers to add a cutout window square above the CPU in order to let a eventual heatsink or just a better air flow ?
one can always use a header with longer pins to provide more "headroom" between the RPi and the HAT, and the matching standoffs.

that's what I did with my RPi3B+ in armor case, with a X400 v3 DAC-amp on top....

but yes, your idea seemed fair, I wonder if the HAT makers will ride on that idea.....
Nice tip the additional header ;)
Is there a kind of female to male header available somewhere, to easily add such room ?
I think this is like what is used with the sense hat, https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/booster-header
And there is this, 11mm stacking header, https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/2x20 ... 132812269

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:49 pm

jbudd wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:07 pm
The enhancement I crave is to print the model number in a larger font on the board. My eyesight isn't what it was!
I was having that problem, but a lot of it was solved last year when I had cataract surgery on my eyes. (NOT that I'm suggesting seeking to do that, but talk to your opthamologist if you think you've a got a problem.)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm
bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:53 pm
dom wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 pm


I've tested raw BluRay MPEG-2 and VC1 with LibreELEC on Pi4 and both played fine with software decode.
Broadcast TV tends to be a much lower bitrate so there shouldn't be a problem.
What kind of CPU utilization did you observe? Did this effect desktop performance?
What part of desktop performance? Of course, the CPU's are going to be busier, so there are less CPU cycles to run 'the desktop', but on the whole, a desktop is mostly idle anyway.
Let me clarify :) I own three boards and have use cases that don't involve using them as a desktop replacement. Although, a little part of me has always wanted to think they could be used as a viable desktop replacement. All reviews have clearly stated this is a bad idea on the older hardware. Fast forward to the 4B...

Until now where the reviews state that this board operates as an entry level x86 desktop.

I think this would be a great introduction for my son to build, customize, and use for all things including as a desktop.

So to clarify, most entry level desktops have zero issues running video in a browser without any noticable slow down or compromise in resolution or framerate.

Right now the reviews state the 4B struggles with anything above 720. Is this the browser? Is this the lack of hardware decoding? Is this the limitation of software decoding on the 4B? I know things will be refined soon enough, but the lack of hardware decoding seems to resonate with me considering the initial reviews.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:52 pm

There is a feature of the Pi4 SoC that I'm surprised hasn't had more (any?) comment. That is that the Ethernet connection no longer runs through the USB hub. This means that a USB-attached SSD and the network connection won't be fighting over bandwidth. That alone should make a significant performance boost in any number of use cases.

So...additional congratulations to the chip designers for that feature.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:53 pm

I'm personally very happy that they broke the $35 price point. I do not mind spending more to get more. I may not need 4 gigs of RAM but I want it. :P :D

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:54 pm

I'm waiting for the first person to get a 1GB unit and do a upgrade to a 4GB chip /....
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

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Covfefe

vithusel
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:09 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:15 pm
vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:25 pm
So, not sure if this is a mistake or not.

But looking at the manual for the Pi 4 i received today, it shows a 8GB ram variant???

Is this TRUE??
:shock:
Yup, typo. We haven't released an 8GB version! It's 1,2, or 4. We've found that 1 is best for headless, 2 for desktop (even lots of Chromium tabs) and 4 is best for dev work with big compiles.
Hang on. I read somewhere there would be a fully 64 bit version of raspbian that will be released in future. Is this related? ;)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm

bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm
bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:53 pm


What kind of CPU utilization did you observe? Did this effect desktop performance?
What part of desktop performance? Of course, the CPU's are going to be busier, so there are less CPU cycles to run 'the desktop', but on the whole, a desktop is mostly idle anyway.
Let me clarify :) I own three boards and have use cases that don't involve using them as a desktop replacement. Although, a little part of me has always wanted to think they could be used as a viable desktop replacement. All reviews have clearly stated this is a bad idea on the older hardware. Fast forward to the 4B...

Until now where the reviews state that this board operates as an entry level x86 desktop.

I think this would be a great introduction for my son to build, customize, and use for all things including as a desktop.

So to clarify, most entry level desktops have zero issues running video in a browser without any noticable slow down or compromise in resolution or framerate.

Right now the reviews state the 4B struggles with anything above 720. Is this the browser? Is this the lack of hardware decoding? Is this the limitation of software decoding on the 4B? I know things will be refined soon enough, but the lack of hardware decoding seems to resonate with me considering the initial reviews.
TBH, most entry level machines would struggle with HEVC 4k decode, which we do have in HW, along with 1080p60 H264 decode in HW, so not sure why you think there isn't any HW decode. We have removed the MPEG2 and VC1 HW codecs as they can easily be rendered in SW. Not sure why people are having performance problems with playback, but we are constantly improving this - still more performance enhancements to go in to Chromium and FFMPEG etc.

On the 4B 4GB I have next to me running 4kp60 I can run YouTube in a window, analog audio to headphones, along with various other windows like Google Drive, without any problems.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm

vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:15 pm
vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:25 pm
So, not sure if this is a mistake or not.

But looking at the manual for the Pi 4 i received today, it shows a 8GB ram variant???

Is this TRUE??
:shock:
Yup, typo. We haven't released an 8GB version! It's 1,2, or 4. We've found that 1 is best for headless, 2 for desktop (even lots of Chromium tabs) and 4 is best for dev work with big compiles.
Hang on. I read somewhere there would be a fully 64 bit version of raspbian that will be released in future. Is this related? ;)
There will be a 64bit version of Raspbian, in the FUTURE. Certainly before 2038 when the Linux clock runs out of bits.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:14 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:16 am
Nice to read what the lovers and haters out there post in various places.

As per usual much wrong information and assumptions.


I have been holding off replacing my 2B v1.1 but IF ChromiumOS can be run on the 4B it would be a cost effective replacement for my Asus ChromeBit which is fast approaching end of official support.

Maybe Neverware will finally offer ????

May as well answer my own question, Neverware have replied that they have no immediate plans to offer CloudReady (ChromiumOS) for ARM CPU Architecture.

So I am now contemplating whether to buy a 1GB or 2GB or 4GB RPi 4B or something else completely !!!!
adieu

Asus CS10 Chromebit / HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer / Raspberry Pi Model 2B v1.1 / RealVNC Software...

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:16 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:52 pm
There is a feature of the Pi4 SoC that I'm surprised hasn't had more (any?) comment. That is that the Ethernet connection no longer runs through the USB hub. This means that a USB-attached SSD and the network connection won't be fighting over bandwidth. That alone should make a significant performance boost in any number of use cases.

So...additional congratulations to the chip designers for that feature.
You can pretty much saturate a gigabit link in both directions simultaneously using the dedicated MAC hardware. The lack of jumbo frame support does mean that the hardware does spam you with quite a few interrupts, but an upgrade to the driver to support the max hardware frame size probably won't require too much plumbing.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

vithusel
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm
bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm


What part of desktop performance? Of course, the CPU's are going to be busier, so there are less CPU cycles to run 'the desktop', but on the whole, a desktop is mostly idle anyway.
Let me clarify :) I own three boards and have use cases that don't involve using them as a desktop replacement. Although, a little part of me has always wanted to think they could be used as a viable desktop replacement. All reviews have clearly stated this is a bad idea on the older hardware. Fast forward to the 4B...

Until now where the reviews state that this board operates as an entry level x86 desktop.

I think this would be a great introduction for my son to build, customize, and use for all things including as a desktop.

So to clarify, most entry level desktops have zero issues running video in a browser without any noticable slow down or compromise in resolution or framerate.

Right now the reviews state the 4B struggles with anything above 720. Is this the browser? Is this the lack of hardware decoding? Is this the limitation of software decoding on the 4B? I know things will be refined soon enough, but the lack of hardware decoding seems to resonate with me considering the initial reviews.
TBH, most entry level machines would struggle with HEVC 4k decode, which we do have in HW, along with 1080p60 H264 decode in HW, so not sure why you think there isn't any HW decode. We have removed the MPEG2 and VC1 HW codecs as they can easily be rendered in SW. Not sure why people are having performance problems with playback, but we are constantly improving this - still more performance enhancements to go in to Chromium and FFMPEG etc.

On the 4B 4GB I have next to me running 4kp60 I can run YouTube in a window, analog audio to headphones, along with various other windows like Google Drive, without any problems.
Just to make a quick comment on this. I have the 4GB version as well but I can barely stream a 720p video without some serious screentearing. I've also tried giving the GPU 512MB of ram to no avail. What setup are you currently using? Are you using the new driver for the GPU? Heatsink?

I've noticed under chrome://GPU most of the stuff is showing as software instead of hardware. Is this the same for you?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:24 pm

vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm
bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm


Let me clarify :) I own three boards and have use cases that don't involve using them as a desktop replacement. Although, a little part of me has always wanted to think they could be used as a viable desktop replacement. All reviews have clearly stated this is a bad idea on the older hardware. Fast forward to the 4B...

Until now where the reviews state that this board operates as an entry level x86 desktop.

I think this would be a great introduction for my son to build, customize, and use for all things including as a desktop.

So to clarify, most entry level desktops have zero issues running video in a browser without any noticable slow down or compromise in resolution or framerate.

Right now the reviews state the 4B struggles with anything above 720. Is this the browser? Is this the lack of hardware decoding? Is this the limitation of software decoding on the 4B? I know things will be refined soon enough, but the lack of hardware decoding seems to resonate with me considering the initial reviews.
TBH, most entry level machines would struggle with HEVC 4k decode, which we do have in HW, along with 1080p60 H264 decode in HW, so not sure why you think there isn't any HW decode. We have removed the MPEG2 and VC1 HW codecs as they can easily be rendered in SW. Not sure why people are having performance problems with playback, but we are constantly improving this - still more performance enhancements to go in to Chromium and FFMPEG etc.

On the 4B 4GB I have next to me running 4kp60 I can run YouTube in a window, analog audio to headphones, along with various other windows like Google Drive, without any problems.
Just to make a quick comment on this. I have the 4GB version as well but I can barely stream a 720p video without some serious screentearing. I've also tried giving the GPU 512MB of ram to no avail. What setup are you currently using? Are you using the new driver for the GPU? Heatsink?
No heatsink, FKMS driver, standard YouTube in Chromium. Not sure what resolution I was playing back at though.

You will get some tearing sometimes as X is single buffered, but I didn't see it as a problem on my general desktop usage.
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bunklung
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:27 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm
bunklung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm


What part of desktop performance? Of course, the CPU's are going to be busier, so there are less CPU cycles to run 'the desktop', but on the whole, a desktop is mostly idle anyway.
Let me clarify :) I own three boards and have use cases that don't involve using them as a desktop replacement. Although, a little part of me has always wanted to think they could be used as a viable desktop replacement. All reviews have clearly stated this is a bad idea on the older hardware. Fast forward to the 4B...

Until now where the reviews state that this board operates as an entry level x86 desktop.

I think this would be a great introduction for my son to build, customize, and use for all things including as a desktop.

So to clarify, most entry level desktops have zero issues running video in a browser without any noticable slow down or compromise in resolution or framerate.

Right now the reviews state the 4B struggles with anything above 720. Is this the browser? Is this the lack of hardware decoding? Is this the limitation of software decoding on the 4B? I know things will be refined soon enough, but the lack of hardware decoding seems to resonate with me considering the initial reviews.
TBH, most entry level machines would struggle with HEVC 4k decode, which we do have in HW, along with 1080p60 H264 decode in HW, so not sure why you think there isn't any HW decode. We have removed the MPEG2 and VC1 HW codecs as they can easily be rendered in SW. Not sure why people are having performance problems with playback, but we are constantly improving this - still more performance enhancements to go in to Chromium and FFMPEG etc.

On the 4B 4GB I have next to me running 4kp60 I can run YouTube in a window, analog audio to headphones, along with various other windows like Google Drive, without any problems.
Thanks for clarification. My eyes either decived me or some reviewers are not clear on what type of decoding is being dropped.

Thanks again and keep up the great work!

vithusel
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:29 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:24 pm
vithusel wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:10 pm


TBH, most entry level machines would struggle with HEVC 4k decode, which we do have in HW, along with 1080p60 H264 decode in HW, so not sure why you think there isn't any HW decode. We have removed the MPEG2 and VC1 HW codecs as they can easily be rendered in SW. Not sure why people are having performance problems with playback, but we are constantly improving this - still more performance enhancements to go in to Chromium and FFMPEG etc.

On the 4B 4GB I have next to me running 4kp60 I can run YouTube in a window, analog audio to headphones, along with various other windows like Google Drive, without any problems.
Just to make a quick comment on this. I have the 4GB version as well but I can barely stream a 720p video without some serious screentearing. I've also tried giving the GPU 512MB of ram to no avail. What setup are you currently using? Are you using the new driver for the GPU? Heatsink?
No heatsink, FKMS driver, standard YouTube in Chromium. Not sure what resolution I was playing back at though.

You will get some tearing sometimes as X is single buffered, but I didn't see it as a problem on my general desktop usage.
Very strange. I'm going to play about with it after flashing the image again fresh and see if I can get it behaving a bit better. Perhaps I missed something.

gm1wkr
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:34 pm

What a brilliant little machine, so very capable, so well supported and so accessible to all those who have the drive, imagination and sense of wonder to learn and then make something. And all of this from a foundation who put learning ahead of profit.

Well done Pi People and thanks for years of fun I will have with Pi4 not to mention the fun I am still having with my original Pi 1A through 3B + (despite them not having 4K or SATA or a quantum coffee maker...).

AlbertX
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm

Hi Guys I registered just to give you my experience.

I got one RP4 today, installed noobs, then the OS.

To begin with I can't output 4K60 using same cable and tv that I use for my Xbox One X and PS4 PRO.

Youtube Videos are dreadful, horrible, not even at 1080p using chromium.

TEsted 4 or 5 differente videos x264 and x265 none of them will play smoothly, NONE (videos were on my NAS) which even my TV play fine.

Either the OS is bad or something wrong is happening here.

4GB version btw, call me dissapointed so far.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:37 pm

Got my Pi4 (4GB) - its awesome - well done all who worked on it.

Of course most importantly how does it play Minecraft !

Quite well it seems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYIZ1-zH4

Minecraft 1.12.2 (with Optifine) on Raspbian Buster (small fan on Pi4, no heatsink)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:52 pm

AlbertX wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm
Hi Guys I registered just to give you my experience.

I got one RP4 today, installed noobs, then the OS.

To begin with I can't output 4K60 using same cable and tv that I use for my Xbox One X and PS4 PRO.

Youtube Videos are dreadful, horrible, not even at 1080p using chromium.

TEsted 4 or 5 differente videos x264 and x265 none of them will play smoothly, NONE (videos were on my NAS) which even my TV play fine.

Either the OS is bad or something wrong is happening here.

4GB version btw, call me dissapointed so far.
Odd about the cable - I would expect if it works for 4k on other devices it would work OK on the Pi. Is it micro HDMI or are you using an adapter?

Does it work at 4kp30? (turn 60fps off in raspi-config gui)

libreElec (ie Kodi) is the best bet (at the moment) for playing back all sorts of video - that should work well with H264 1080p and H265 4k.
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