alexdev
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:47 am

I saw on a previous comment that VC4 is still there. Is this true? And what's the purpose of it if VC6 is already on-die?

Also, a few other questions:
1. Is the audio jack still PWM-driven?
2. The Arasan SD controller has also been replaced or just the Broadcom SDHost one?

smed
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:49 am

Any chance it supports DisplayPort over USB-C?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:50 am

smed wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:49 am
Any chance it supports DisplayPort over USB-C?
No, USB2.0 OTG only.
Rockets are loud.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:50 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:45 am
Can you PLEASE stop these brain dumps.
Sorry, just me thinking out aloud, I will add Question numbers and ? marks.
Will have to think about whether or not it's going to be worth the aggro! :roll:
You could wait for the Pi5 which now will likely also have two micro HDMIs?
Really so much agro about an extra connector? Ah, that missing sarcasm emoji?

Don't mobile phones etc come with micro HDMI!
Think I saw some cables at Daiso for $2.80 AUD?

Q1) This is the new footprint for Pi5-6?
Case designers might like to know.
I now have Element14 Desktop case that won't fit these :(
Dremel time?
SD slot speeds are now DDR50. Double the bus bandwidth.
Q2) What cards will we need to get to get max SD performance?
Will be interesting to compare against USB3 SSD booting when that is working.

Q3) Of that 4Mb secondary boot EEPROM, how much is spare?

Q4) What was the initial batch quantities?
It looks like they are selling fast.

Q5) What are planned monthly qty?
It is starting to look like I will have to wait till next production :o
It will be interesting to see how fast the Pi4's are selling.

Q6) Is that 8GB version in one doc a typo, or is it possible in a future version?
1) No idea. 5 and 6 are a LONG way away, probably > 2 years at least.
2) No idea. People will need to test, but good quality!
3) EEPROM is 512KB, with not much spare, and there is no guarantee that it will continue to be 512; if we can make it smaller for cost reasons, we will.
4) Confidential.
5) Same as current quantities? Seems likely.
6) What doc has 8GB? Range is 1,2, or 4GB.

Seems likely that the twin HDMI will stay as micro. No room for full size connectors. We are selling a range of cheap but high quality cables, or you can use an adapter.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:52 am

alexdev wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:47 am
I saw on a previous comment that VC4 is still there. Is this true? And what's the purpose of it if VC6 is already on-die?

Also, a few other questions:
1. Is the audio jack still PWM-driven?
2. The Arasan SD controller has also been replaced or just the Broadcom SDHost one?
Parts of the VideoCore4 are still present - the H264 block, camera ISP etc. The VPU's are the same. The 3D block is now VC6, and there are other parts that are sort of VC5 (HVS?)

1. Yes.
2. Think its been replaced with a new one with double the data rate, not sure whether it BRCM. @P33M?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:54 am

Audio jack is still PWM driven, but there are now two PWM controllers with one dedicated to audio.

The new SD controller is an addition, not a replacement. The Broadcom SDHOST device is now unused as the Arasan SD controller now talks to WiFi.
Rockets are loud.
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alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:59 am

great news. any improvement on the camera system. i see it is still supporting the old encoding rates and buses

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:04 am

alnaseh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:59 am
great news. any improvement on the camera system. i see it is still supporting the old encoding rates and buses
Camera system is the same.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:11 am

Thanks to everyone involved - looks like a great upgrade.

I have one query - is there any possibility of driving one 4K 60Hz display at the same time as another 1920x1080 60Hz display? Or would 4K 60Hz prevent any second display output? Thanks.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:16 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:28 am
PeterO wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:20 am
mikerr wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:23 am
- No USB/netboot at launch (but added later with user update to the EEPROM)
Is there any info about this ?
PeterO
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... teeprom.md
Thanks James. I was searching for "USB boot" rather than EEPROM !
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pagenotfound
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:17 am

Interesting decision to initially favor the 2 GB version. I'm almost willing to bet that the user base will be sharply divided between those who want as many Pi s as possible for the lowest price and those who would rather have 16 GB (like me). 2GB will be only for those with a very specific use case combined with budget constraints. Maybe industrial /commercial users?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:21 am

jamesh,

Harsh response from you I feel but Hey Ho ... appreciate your hard work and I'm sure your wife* has missed you.

As you can see from the other responses this is not something only I would have liked to have seen.

On board WIFI/BT does make a lot of sense to most user but not all and I feel the "PI" is all about options.

Security is a factor and also it can limit usage where radio frequencies can not be used.

I do feel others have it right .. choose your ram and connectivity type at order.

Let see what the foundation offers ....

SOFTWARE SWITCH so at what level does this disable WIFI/BT then ? Stops the Chip from working ? is it online before the Config turns it off ?

There is some interesting work going on with the PINE Phone .. they are offering hardware switches on a lot of the hardware components.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:23 am

1GB for embed Pi's, 2GB for youtubers, 4GB for developers?
Need to Benchmark Browsers to see if there is any advantage for the 4GB over the 2GB?
Oh dear will need to buy 2 of each size :D I always get a spare.
Seems likely that the twin HDMI will stay as micro
Thanks Jamesh.
Q1) Will the Zero change to using the micro HDMI one day, save some stocking or is the mini cheaper than micro?
6) What doc has 8GB? Range is 1,2, or 4GB.
I think is was a linked pi3g doc not RPF's doc, they seemed to have some more insider detail, how accurate?
Nice to know I have 2 years to learn the Pi 4 before you give us new versions :lol:
That might not be enough time :oops:
[3) EEPROM is 512KB, with not much spare, and there is no guarantee that it will continue to be 512; if we can make it smaller for cost reasons, we will./quote]
Or we could hack them and put bigger ones on?
Interesting possibilities for tiny OS's? Or even tiny Pi4 Zero?
Yep another brain dump not question, time will tell.
Any chance it supports DisplayPort over USB-C?
No, USB2.0 OTG only.
Q2) Displaylink over USB 2.0 on the USB C?
With the USB's and Ethernet no longer on the usual USB port they won't get in the way?
But that means a Pi4 would need to power the 2nd Pi 4.
Q3) Can enough power be routed to do this? ]
4 screens :o Or use two extra Zeros?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:25 am

Ashe wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:11 am
Thanks to everyone involved - looks like a great upgrade.

I have one query - is there any possibility of driving one 4K 60Hz display at the same time as another 1920x1080 60Hz display? Or would 4K 60Hz prevent any second display output? Thanks.
Yes, this is/will be possible. BUT, you will struggle if you add more layers (e.g. raspistill preview). Probably better to run the 4k display at 30fps - you won't really notice a difference and gives you more spare bandwidth.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:29 am

A shim to convert from USB-C power supply to micro-usb (the other way around to the one on launch day) would mean RPT could drop the other power supply.
Is there a plan to do that, perhaps when stocks old the old supply run down?
Last edited by Paul Webster on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

defsdoor
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:31 am

Love the Pi4 - it ticks every box.

Just wondering about the power requirements and the official POE adapter. Is it possible to get 3A off the POE adaptor ? Specs say 2.5

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:33 am

My main comment is less about the new hardware than to hope that the advent of USB3 might encourage case or HAT designers to offer something that would allow eg an M.2 SSD to be integrated within footprint of the Pi (I guess a 180°USB adapter would be unavoidable). It's immediately more clumsy to have an add-on device sticking out to the side or, worse still, attached by a cable to the Pi.

I've always thought that the biggest remaining Pi weakness is its inability to support properly robust storage in any sort of neat configuration (unless anyone can afford SLC SD cards, but even then you've still got the speed issue).

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:40 am

prodata wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:33 am
My main comment is less about the new hardware than to hope that the advent of USB3 might encourage case or HAT designers to offer something that would allow eg an M.2 SSD to be integrated within footprint of the Pi (I guess a 180°USB adapter would be unavoidable). It's immediately more clumsy to have an add-on device sticking out to the side or, worse still, attached by a cable to the Pi.

I've always thought that the biggest remaining Pi weakness is its inability to support properly robust storage in any sort of neat configuration (unless anyone can afford SLC SD cards, but even then you've still got the speed issue).
I'm sure some will comme up with that
geekworm https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32971294214.html do for the Pi3 I'm sure a small fix will make a Pi4 version
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:40 am

Does anybody know if AES crypto support is included on the new chipset?

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Re: Inside Pi 4

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:14 pm

pi3g wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:27 am
I've compiled a PDF with a lot of technical information & details about the Pi 4 - thanks go out to the Raspberry Pi engineering and commercial teams for answering my and many other reseller's questions.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1560/ ... 4.pdf?2142
That is very useful and informative! Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

Emill
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Alex. wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:49 am
Wow, really impressive!

There's a detail I don't understand: you said it's Bluetooth 5, but according to specs the CYW43455 is only 4.1. Is there a new unannounced chipset release that supports 5?
If you go to https://launchstudio.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search and search for CYW43455 you will see that it's both certified for Bluetooth 4.2 and 5.0. It's the same chip as before and if you go to the certification details, you can see that it seems to have the exact same feature selection as before. So the only thing they seem to have done is a new qualification for the latest version, and not actually implemented any of the new optional features such as 2 Mbit/s PHY, Long Range, Extended advertisements etc. It seems pretty common that manufacturers regularly re-qualify their chips with the newest Bluetooth version without modifying the actual hardware or firmware, so it looks better in the marketing material.
pi3g wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:27 am
I've compiled a PDF with a lot of technical information & details about the Pi 4 - thanks go out to the Raspberry Pi engineering and commercial teams for answering my and many other reseller's questions.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1560/ ... 4.pdf?2142
So what pi3g writes about Bluetooth 5.0 does not apply to Raspberry Pi 4 at all if I got it correct.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:10 am
3D MVC? What is that?
3D MVC = 3D Multi View Coding. It's the extension to h.264 that is used in 3D Blu-rays, and which previous models of Raspberry Pis have supported decoding ofwithin Kodi.

Also - allied to this - is a question as to whether the HDMI outputs still support HDMI 1080p24 Frame Packed 3D output (which allows 3D 1080p24 output)? (i.e. 2 x 1080p24 streams - one for each eye - output over HDMI)

The Raspberry Pi has been one of the very few ARM SBCs that supports proper 3D Blu-ray playback with 3D MVC decode and 1080p24 frame packed 3D HDMI output , so I guess the question raised by the OP is whether this is still supported?

With 3DMVC Frame Packed output, 4K60 10-bit HEVC (hopefully with with HDR10 ST.2084 PQ and HLG Rec.2100 EOTFs and Rec 2020 colour gamut support) and HD Audio bitstreaming, the Pi 4B would be probably out ahead of pretty much everything already out there (ignoring Dolby Vision)
Last edited by noggin on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:32 pm

Have you upset the BBC ? They ignore the PI4 and go for https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48743043 :shock:

Maybe you should have called it "iPi4" then they would be interested :lol:
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:37 pm

Darn you! Just TAKE MY MONEY!
What's the availability like? I take it that it is quite the suprise. Not a hint seen anyplace.

ti994/a
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Re: Inside Pi 4

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm

pi3g wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:27 am
I've compiled a PDF with a lot of technical information & details about the Pi 4 - thanks go out to the Raspberry Pi engineering and commercial teams for answering my and many other reseller's questions.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1560/ ... 4.pdf?2142
What a great document. Thank you for this.

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