User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:32 pm

I don't think people on here mind at all. It is quite interesting hearing about other products. If you go on other sites, their main objective is to flog you their product. The purpose of the foundation is to encourage computing by the young so it may be that another product is more suitable for some people coming on here. There are a growing number of teachers coming on this forum and they need to be confident that they are getting independent advice from people with experience in all sorts of fields.

samcrawford
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:23 am

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:52 pm

For those who don't require the video output and just want a tiny, cheap, networked Linux box then I might suggest trying the TP-Link TL-WR703N and flashing it with OpenWrt. This device *still* isn't available in the UK it seems, but can be ordered from volumerates and a few others for ~$23 delivered.

I've had a few of these myself and they're great bits of kit for the price. Of course, I'll still be ordering the Raspberry Pi as soon as they're available!

rpt
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:49 pm

DeliciousRaspberryCake said:


It's a huge privilege the staff even allows all these forum posts on "alternatives" to the raspberry pi...

It would be very reasonable if the mods of this forum introduce a rule stating it is frowned upon to talk about alternatives or bash on the raspberry pi.


No it wouldn't. It's called free speech. Having such a rule could stifle open debate about how best to use the Pi or what might be in Pi2. Allowing all opinions is how to build a good reputation.

WereCatf
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:16 am
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:56 pm

^ Not to mention that allowing all opinions and even discussions about other possibilities happens to also be in line with general F/OSS ideals. It would be self-contradictory for RPi Foundation to tout their platform as an open platform fully endorsing F/OSS, and then silence all dissenters.

User avatar
liz
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5201
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:22 pm
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:30 pm

rpt said:


DeliciousRaspberryCake said:


It's a huge privilege the staff even allows all these forum posts on "alternatives" to the raspberry pi…

It would be very reasonable if the mods of this forum introduce a rule stating it is frowned upon to talk about alternatives or bash on the raspberry pi.


No it wouldn't. It's called free speech. Having such a rule could stifle open debate about how best to use the Pi or what might be in Pi2. Allowing all opinions is how to build a good reputation.


Well, to be fair, speech on these forums is not totally free. We do not tolerate rudeness (directed at the foundation or at other forum members) or spam. Trolling isn't acceptable, and nor is flame baiting. People who do those things get banned. You're not free to come here and say absolutely anything you like; we have boundaries of civility.

This isn't a platform for free speech; if someone wants one of those we expect them to buy their own bandwidth for their soapbox, not to use ours. This *is* a platform for discussion and exchange of ideas, though, and as such we do believe that the sort of conversation in this thread has its place.

DeliciousRaspberryCake has a point; it is annoying for those of us who work on this to read some of this stuff. But we know it's not malicious or meant to annoy, and we believe it adds to the dialogue, which is why this thread has stayed up.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

User avatar
reiuyi
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:59 pm
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:30 pm

rpt said:


No it wouldn't. It's called free speech. Having such a rule could stifle open debate about how best to use the Pi or what might be in Pi2. Allowing all opinions is how to build a good reputation.


There is a very clear distinction between "free speech" and trolling. Ask any mod on here about the number of threads they have had to close due to unreasonable behaviour. See for example http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....y-a-laptop . That link has a very clear example of what behaviour is frowned upon by the community. It is not a good idea to accept all opinions as not all opinions are correct. There's plenty of other sites where you can spread false information. Closing down topics containing false information (i.e. nonsense regarding super cheap tablets and laptops) does not "stifle" any debate regarding ways to use or improve the pi.

WereCatf said:


^ Not to mention that allowing all opinions and even discussions about other possibilities happens to also be in line with general F/OSS ideals. It would be self-contradictory for RPi Foundation to tout their platform as an open platform fully endorsing F/OSS, and then silence all dissenters.


The raspberry pi is not an "open platform" (though they try to be as open as possible). This is not a bad thing per se. Due to patents and corporate business deals you will not be able to build your own raspberry pi; you cannot buy the chips nor some of the software. If you've been on this forum for a while you'll know what "bashing the raspberry pi" and not understanding the ideals of the raspberry pi means. The Foundation's core plan is not to develop some sort of "open platform", their objective is to bring forth a cheap tool for teaching IT. Some members have not yet read the goals of the Foundation, it seems.

kasperl
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:36 pm

rpt said:


DeliciousRaspberryCake said:


It's a huge privilege the staff even allows all these forum posts on "alternatives" to the raspberry pi...

It would be very reasonable if the mods of this forum introduce a rule stating it is frowned upon to talk about alternatives or bash on the raspberry pi.


No it wouldn't. It's called free speech. Having such a rule could stifle open debate about how best to use the Pi or what might be in Pi2. Allowing all opinions is how to build a good reputation.


While I agree that it would be a good idea to be able to discuss alternatives, free speech has nothing to do with this. Free speech means you are free to speak in a public forum, and are allowed to write whatever you want. However, no-one is under any obligation to give you this forum or to allow you to put up anything on a noticeboard.

The foundation does have a final say in what goes and what doesn't here.

rpt
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:44 pm

Perhaps "free speech" wasn't quite the right term. I'm certainly not advocating that trolling and other nonsense should be tolerated. But the post I was replying to was suggesting that discussing alternatives or criticising the Raspberry Pi should not be allowed. I think it would be counter productive to ban such posts provided they are made politely and in good faith.

One thing I don't understand - why do people reply to obvious troll posts? Isn't it easier to just ignore them?

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:49 pm

I think, rpt, we have just worked out who the Troll is on this topic. All the earlier postings were quite amicable. I also think it is quite interesting to hear about other products but in making that point we just seem to be feeding the Troll.

User avatar
johnbeetem
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:18 pm
Location: The Mountains
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:03 pm

rpt said:

One thing I don't understand - why do people reply to obvious troll posts? Isn't it easier to just ignore them?
The vast majority follow this advice and don't reply to such posts.  However, it only takes one person to feed a troll.

rpt
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:21 pm

I apologise. I had no intention of offending anyone. I shall be more careful how I express myself in future.

User avatar
abishur
Posts: 4477
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:48 pm

Now now, there's no need to pout.

I can say as a moderator of the site I don't care if someone offers up an alternative to the r-pi or even an objective pro/con list comparing the r-pi to said alternative.  I also don't care if someone mentions a feature that the r-pi has or does not have that they don't agree with, but when people continually bring up the same issue that goes from a simple and worthwhile discussion to pointless whining.

I mean let's be frank, there is no such thing as the perfect system.  No matter what you buy it will be lacking that one feature that lets it do everything you want it to.  So it's good to politely and dispassionately discuss alternatives that can fill in the holes where needed.  I appreciate the fierce defending of the r-pi, but it not necessary to drop the hammer just because someone mentions an alternative, let's keep it civil here people

Side note @Philip Machanick and others who take this stance the release date for the r-pi does not "keep slipping" from the very beginning the release date for the r-pi was Q4.  They told us that they *hoped* that  meant November but up until December 31st that was still Q4.  Which means at this point they are still looking to release a mere 1 and a half months late.  I know it's frustrating when we all what to get our hands on it, but take a deep breath and relax.

And barring that, that kind of talk is the kind of unproductive talk that gets a thread locked down.

Now I would prefer not to lock this thread, so if people want to discuss the Rhombus Tech that's fine, but if we keep doing this off topic business then the thread will be locked down.  Sorry guys.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

User avatar
ArborealSeer
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:48 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:19 pm

Abishur said:


Now I would prefer not to lock this thread, so if people want to discuss the Rhombus Tech that's fine, but if we keep doing this off topic business then the thread will be locked down.  Sorry guys.


Perhaps another catch-all thread to discuss any/all reasons why other tech isn't (is?) better be it bigger/"better"/faster cheaper etc to point people at – I've got an opinion on that (and why pi is the winner of course) but couldn't care less about rhombus, which is why til now I've largely just lurked on this post and won't post on this thread again.
Pi Status > Farnell, Arrived 24/5- RS, Arrived 1/6

Dioxin
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:43 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:32 pm


hoping to get back on topic

I've been looking into various "alternatives" to the RaspberryPi, which I'd much prefer to label as variations on a theme

I managed to get my grubby mits on a PandaboardES and have been using that as a personal testbed for embedded systems but at a 6:1 price ratio the feature set is a little different from the R-Pi.(for peeps like me with more money than sense I'd recommend a pandaboard for tinkerers)

Next up on order I've got a beaglebone, which has a similar form factor to the R-Pi, and a 2.5:1 price ratio but slightly lesser performance the Panda.(not quite in my grubby mits, but soon my precious)

I've also looked into the Rhombus and the Cubox, but my impression for the most part is that they are vapourware, in the Rhombus case it appears as attack on the R-Pi(at least to me) and I'm pretty sure their price is using back of the knapkin math. Cubox, I cant seem to find people that own them anywhere!(No blogs or websites for happy customers or even unhappy ones) despite the fact they say they shipped.

One thing money just cant buy is a good community, with a price point as low as the R-Pi, people will flock to it with very little knowledge, the community will make or break their experience with the R-Pi. I think we have a great community with hearts and minds in the right places.

I'm finding that even with a wealth of experience on "standard" computing platforms, embedded ARM has its own little hurdles, I'll eventually get to blogging my experiences.


philipm
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:46 am
Contact: Website

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:45 am

rpt said:


DeliciousRaspberryCake said:


It's a huge privilege the staff even allows all these forum posts on "alternatives" to the raspberry pi...

It would be very reasonable if the mods of this forum introduce a rule stating it is frowned upon to talk about alternatives or bash on the raspberry pi.


No it wouldn't. It's called free speech. Having such a rule could stifle open debate about how best to use the Pi or what might be in Pi2. Allowing all opinions is how to build a good reputation.


Quite so. In any case I am only looking for short-term alternatives in case I can't get enough for my first round of projects. I'm a member of a site in Australia called coffee snobs, and the mods there delete any article that mentions someone who's not a sponsor (even if unfavourable). Needless to say I read articles there with handful of salt even though most contributors seem knowledgeable.

If you are trying to make the best product possible you should be willing and able to engage with anyone who isn't happy with the offering, and I'm not even in that space.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23688
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:37 am

As long as everyone remember that this forum is not, technically a democracy. It's owned and run by the Raspberry Pi foundation, and whilst we are a pretty easy going bunch willing to engage in debate in this area and other areas, we reserve the right to stomp on stuff we think is going beyond what is acceptable *to us*. Not to the rest of the world, but *to us*.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

Silence
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:12 am

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:53 am


The Foundation"s core plan is not to develop some sort of "open platform", their objective is to bring forth a cheap tool for teaching IT. Some members have not yet read the goals of the Foundation, it seems.


So what is the problem exactly with cheap alternatives or the fact that it inspires others to produce alternatives ? I have read the education meme over and over again I even saw some remarks that there was some hope for sparking alternatives (I really liked that idea, personally I hope we will get some fun alternatives – competition is always good)  but now that it seems those alternatives are getting into the market, it is suddenly all bad and "cheecky".

Hell for the educational public it seems a very big plus that they will be able to chose out of a different range of products and maybe get more bang from their buck.

You can pull all the other stuff in it about bashing, criticism but in these thread I have not seen anything harsh in that regards.

One thing that really bothers me with the raspberry pi is nothing technical but the atmosphere arround it. Some have extremely big toes to step on. Something I have also witnessed in the "official" reactions on the frontpage or on this forum.

To be honest I personally don"t have a good feeling if I see some of the communications especially to some customers. Sometimes I really have the feeling you aren"t allow to make any critical remark whatsoever… . Or that they throw it on the same pile as the "meaningless" trolling... . A very easy thing to do if you want to have no discussion.

PS: if it isn"t about openness they should really make that more clear because if I look at different sites and reactions, most see it as an open platform. Then again educate me how things like XBMC fits into education ?

User avatar
scep
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:53 am

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:32 am

Silence said:



The Foundation"s core plan is not to develop some sort of "open platform", their objective is to bring forth a cheap tool for teaching IT. Some members have not yet read the goals of the Foundation, it seems.


So what is the problem exactly with cheap alternatives or the fact that it inspires others to produce alternatives ?


Nothing. Quite the opposite – the RPF have always made it quite clear that they positively encourage "competition". They want to see a world flooded with capable, small, low-cost, computers full of open source software. The Pi is a means to an end, not a money-making product*. But that's not to say that every "alternative" that comes along should be unconditionally applauded (especially if it hasn't even been made). It might be rubbish. Or overpriced. Or just plain vapourware.

*Such fundamental misunderstandings of the Foundation's charitable goals and business model have been known to cause everything from grumpy scepticism; through cognitive dissonance; to uncontrolled, spittle-flecked outrage. Which is weird really, when they are a bunch of right-minded people who have put their money, time and even jobs on the line to try to make the world a better place, in however small a way.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:50 am

It is interesting that when I read a huffy, pompous, self righteous post, I look to the left and inevitably it is the person's first offering. I do wonder what it is about first posters, who have a tendency to jump in without reading more than a handful of posts, which makes them feel that they have a knowledge and insight that all others lack.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23688
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:28 am

Silence said:



The Foundation"s core plan is not to develop some sort of "open platform", their objective is to bring forth a cheap tool for teaching IT. Some members have not yet read the goals of the Foundation, it seems.


So what is the problem exactly with cheap alternatives or the fact that it inspires others to produce alternatives ? I have read the education meme over and over again I even saw some remarks that there was some hope for sparking alternatives (I really liked that idea, personally I hope we will get some fun alternatives – competition is always good)  but now that it seems those alternatives are getting into the market, it is suddenly all bad and "cheecky".

Hell for the educational public it seems a very big plus that they will be able to chose out of a different range of products and maybe get more bang from their buck.

You can pull all the other stuff in it about bashing, criticism but in these thread I have not seen anything harsh in that regards.

One thing that really bothers me with the raspberry pi is nothing technical but the atmosphere arround it. Some have extremely big toes to step on. Something I have also witnessed in the "official" reactions on the frontpage or on this forum.

To be honest I personally don"t have a good feeling if I see some of the communications especially to some customers. Sometimes I really have the feeling you aren"t allow to make any critical remark whatsoever… . Or that they throw it on the same pile as the "meaningless" trolling... . A very easy thing to do if you want to have no discussion.

PS: if it isn"t about openness they should really make that more clear because if I look at different sites and reactions, most see it as an open platform. Then again educate me how things like XBMC fits into education ?


I be interested if you could point out areas where you think the Admins/Mods of the site have been unnecessarily harsh. From my own point of view, I am pretty easy going, allowing threads to continue when many other sites would already have deleted them. I also only criticise when I think there is something to critisise. I have never banned anyone either, and have allowed quite a lot of criticism, but if I see critisism, I expect to be able to respond to it in kind - that is only fair. You criticise us, we criticise you (if there is something to criticise). And yes, there usually is something to criticise - either someone has completely failed to read up before posting (have  you any idea how annoying it is to answer  the same question over and over again because some noggin cannot be arsed to read the FAQ? Time that could be spent on answering real questions), or is promoting something that needs criticism, or for being unnecessarily rude (We will really stomp on the last category - you have very little scope for rudeness here)

Remember, there are 44k posts on here, there are bound to be a few minors issues.  The VAST majority of these posts are polite, well meaning, occasionally critical, but entirely acceptable.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

Chris.Rowland
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:45 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:33 am

JamesH, if you want an example where you personally have been rude to a member of this group then your response to mgmt-idiot on the "step by step guide" thread is one.  You indulged in what he quite rightly described as an ad-hominem attack.

Your response here also comes across as pretty abrasive.

There are several things to remember:

* Your response to posters reflects on you, not them.  If you are rude to people then it's you being rude. This is the case no matter what they have said.

* You don't have to respond to every post. In particular you don't need to respond to all the "when will it be available?" posts. Leave it to others to say "Read the FAQ!".

* If you can't say something helpful then don't post anything.

* Moderators are of course free to respond to posts but their responses should be above reproach. They should be examples to which others should aspire, not something requiring moderation themselves.  After all who is going to moderate the moderators?

This also applies to a lot of the elders here,  for example GrumpyOldGits post just before yours is another ad-hominem attack.  You are going to need to be more tolerant of less experienced people.

I'm sorry to post publicly but the question was asked here.  I reported the thread to which I referred but heard nothing.

Chris

Edited because the bullet points only show in the editor...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23688
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Chris Rowland said:


JamesH, if you want an example where you personally have been rude to a member of this group then your response to mgmt-idiot on the "step by step guide" thread is one.  You indulged in what he quite rightly described as an ad-hominem attack.

Your response here also comes across as pretty abrasive.

There are several things to remember:

* Your response to posters reflects on you, not them.  If you are rude to people then it"s you being rude. This is the case no matter what they have said.

* You don"t have to respond to every post. In particular you don"t need to respond to all the "when will it be available?" posts. Leave it to others to say "Read the FAQ!".

* If you can"t say something helpful then don"t post anything.

* Moderators are of course free to respond to posts but their responses should be above reproach. They should be examples to which others should aspire, not something requiring moderation themselves.  After all who is going to moderate the moderators?

This also applies to a lot of the elders here,  for example GrumpyOldGits post just before yours is another ad-hominem attack.  You are going to need to be more tolerant of less experienced people.

I"m sorry to post publicly but the question was asked here.  I reported the thread to which I referred but heard nothing.

Chris

Edited because the bullet points only show in the editor...


Rather wasteful, but I just reread the thread to which you refer. I did find points where the OP was unnecessarily abrasive (as was pointed out by Liz in a post that thread. She is MUCH less tolerant than I am) and I also found a lot of helpful posts that tried the answer the OP's question. However, I found no point at which I was rude, so I am afraid I will have to dispute your statement there. The original question was worth asking, but the thread seemed to degenerate so has been closed (not by me)

If I am rude to someone on here, I can pretty much guarantee they deserved it.

In answer to the other points you make. There are 44k posts on here, I have just over 800 posts myself. So no, I don't answer every post.  This also means I don't read every post - if I SEE unnecessary attacks I always try to do something about it, but I am pretty tolerant - not just to beginners but to everyone. What I am getting less tolerant  about is the continual asking of the same question that is answered in the FAQ's. People can be as lazy as they want in reading up, but don't make the mods and admins  do unneccesary work for you by replying time after time. It make us grumpy.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
scep
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:53 am

Re: another UK "alternative" to the pi

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:28 pm

I've just glanced through this thread and I reckon that there is over 90 minutes of admin input into it. On every other board that I have been involved with -  as an admin or a member - this thread would have been killed very early on. And no one would have bitched and carped, because they would understand that it is not their board and it is not a democracy and they do not, for one minute, have any say in how it is administered and moderated. They would understand that and let it lie.

So - one and a half hours from at least four admins. All to try to be reasonable and open and helpful because we want to encourage glasnost and community and friendliness (despite what some might think). And yet here we are, four pages in, discussing how the boards should be run. It's unreasonable. And for this reason I am closing this thread.

Return to “General discussion”