Page 2 of 2

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:19 am
by RPi_Mike
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:59 am
You may think your post was thoughtful and positive, others may disagreee. You may think you have significiant presence on this site, others may disagree.

I actually agree with this factual observation!

People have an endless range of subjective and ultimately unprovable perceptions.

That certainly includes me — and everyone else on this site.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:48 am
by hippy
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:55 am
To precis the OP, and AIUI, basically, Google now use a derivative of Debian, and because of that they are pushing back fixes etc to Debian. A lot of companies do this. We use a fork of Debian, so we get the fixes. So far so good.

But is that it?
That was my feeling from reading the OP. It's good news when any big software company backs Linux and/or the distro one is personally using; they will have the self-interest, the motivation, money and resources, to fix bugs, make improvements, champion changes, and all that trickles down to everyone else. The Pi benefits because it's Debian based, which is what Google is choosing, so all that Google does should trickle down to the Pi and its users.

Good indeed, and perhaps great if it means we get things we would not otherwise get without Google's involvement.

The counter would be that it's not such great news, and even rather bad, if Google embarks on an "embrace, extend, extinguish" course, or seeks to move Debian, even Linux, in a direction which mostly benefits Google, disadvantages others, or which is detrimental in some way.

But there is currently no evidence that is what Google intends to do or they would achieve that if it is what they desired.

So it is good news, may be great news, but we will only know for sure when we see what actually happens. Everything until then is mostly speculation.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:08 am
by jamesh
From a kernel point of view, the distro itself is unimportant - we take upstream, as do the distro's, so any changes to the kernel we will get eventually, irrespective of which distro supplied the kernel change. It's the packages and ancilliaries that are affected by this in particular. Still a lot of stuff.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:15 am
by RPi_Mike
hippy wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:48 am
It's good news when any big software company backs Linux and/or the distro one is personally using; they will have the self-interest, the motivation, money and resources, to fix bugs, make improvements, champion changes, and all that trickles down to everyone else. The Pi benefits because it's Debian based, which is what Google is choosing, so all that Google does should trickle down to the Pi and its users.

Good indeed, and perhaps great if it means we get things we would not otherwise get without Google's involvement.

The counter would be that it's not such great news, and even rather bad, if Google embarks on an "embrace, extend, extinguish" course, or seeks to move Debian, even Linux, in a direction which mostly benefits Google, disadvantages others, or which is detrimental in some way.

But there is currently no evidence that is what Google intends to do or they would achieve that if it is what they desired.

So it is good news, may be great news, but we will only know for sure when we see what actually happens. Everything until then is mostly speculation.

Thanks, hippy, for your well-reasoned and thoughtful commentary!

I deeply appreciate it.

In fact, it almost makes me want to blow my big brassy trumpet all over again — but in joy rather than righteous indignation! :)

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:33 pm
by hippy
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:08 am
It's the packages and ancilliaries that are affected by this in particular. Still a lot of stuff.
I am not familiar with how distros are put together beyond their being a collation and bundling of kernel, packages and utilities.

I would have thought any fixes and changes to packages would be 'up at the top' and all distros would drag those down if they want them, so there wouldn't be much which would be purely of benefit to Debian, or any other distro if Google had chosen that.

There is obviously a 'making it work on Debian' aspect to things but I wouldn't have thought there would be much that Google could/would do which would benefit only or more-so Debian and derivatives specifically.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:57 pm
by ShiftPlusOne
hippy wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:33 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:08 am
It's the packages and ancilliaries that are affected by this in particular. Still a lot of stuff.
I am not familiar with how distros are put together beyond their being a collation and bundling of kernel, packages and utilities.

I would have thought any fixes and changes to packages would be 'up at the top' and all distros would drag those down if they want them, so there wouldn't be much which would be purely of benefit to Debian, or any other distro if Google had chosen that.

There is obviously a 'making it work on Debian' aspect to things but I wouldn't have thought there would be much that Google could/would do which would benefit only or more-so Debian and derivatives specifically.
Ideally, but not in practice. Some core packages may not be maintained upstream, so distros end up with their own sets of patches to keep it building and running. Sometimes upstream maintainers disagree on what's a bug and what's a feature. Some packages, like dput, are completely different in Debian and Ubuntu. But I don't think any of those examples take away from your main point.

I've been running Buster for about half a year, and haven't seen a google email address attached to any of Debian bug reports or fixes I've encountered. Skimming through release critical bugs, I don't see any now either. I think I agree that they're more likely to submit their bug fixes upstream directly or just apply them as patches in gLinux only. If that's the case, it really doesn't matter what distro they run.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:57 pm
by AdamStanislav
Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:11 am
Heater wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:40 am
In other astounding news: The Russian military replaces Windows with Astra Linux:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/russian-m ... tra-linux/
I thought they were moving to Raspbian
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... on-system/
Ukraine and Russia are two different countries.

Re: Good News for the Raspberry Pi!

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 am
by W. H. Heydt
aqk wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:51 pm
Is there a Ubuntu for Pi yet?
So far as I know, there is. But remember that Ubuntu is derived from Debian.