spock
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:57 am

i am also very excited already even if it still is at least a year away. :)

i think the main features are pretty much clear (usb3 and support for more ram) but how they will achieve it while keeping backward compatibility (will they?)... i have no idea... :)

jamesh
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:00 am
Of course, I'm not going to say what that feature set is, but it's pretty cool.
Stop saying that, it drives me nuts trying to imagine what "cool" means to you.
Cool is not an attitude - It's a state of mind. Imagine an eagle flying through the Rocky Mountains, suddenly, it spies its prey, and falls, falls, falls, it's wings guiding it, but to what?

Think of the primitive thoughts cascading through the eagles mind as it plummets towards the rocks below. That is the Pi4.
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Heater
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:23 pm

jamesh,
Cool is not an attitude - It's a state of mind. Imagine an eagle flying through the Rocky Mountains, suddenly, it spies its prey, and falls, falls, falls, it's wings guiding it, but to what?

Think of the primitive thoughts cascading through the eagles mind as it plummets towards the rocks below. That is the Pi4.
Wow. Did you just come back from lunch at the pub? Or is that something else?

Anyway, whatever the Pi4 is to be I'm looking forward to it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:54 pm

I've told everyone I know to wait to buy a Pi 4 rather than a 3B+, this better be great or else :)
1 * Raspberry Pi Zero W, 1 * Raspberry Pi 2, 1 * Raspberry Pi 3 1 * Raspberry Pi 3B + :mrgreen:

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Heater
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:00 pm

DarkPlatinum,
I've told everyone I know to wait to buy a Pi 4 rather than a 3B+
Why? You did them a disservice.

If the Pi 4 does not come out for another year they will be wasting a year waiting. Missing out on a lot of fun and learning opportunities. Not getting stuff done that they could get done today.

When the Pi 4 comes out times will have moved on. People will already be looking to the next best thing. Will you then advise them to wait for the Pi 5?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:20 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:23 pm
jamesh,
Cool is not an attitude - It's a state of mind. Imagine an eagle flying through the Rocky Mountains, suddenly, it spies its prey, and falls, falls, falls, it's wings guiding it, but to what?

Think of the primitive thoughts cascading through the eagles mind as it plummets towards the rocks below. That is the Pi4.
Wow. Did you just come back from lunch at the pub? Or is that something else?

Anyway, whatever the Pi4 is to be I'm looking forward to it.
No, not been to pub, just high on the coolness that will be the Pi4.

As for waiting - why? Going to be months yet. And at $35 for a Pi3B+, it's not a whole lotta cash spread over all those months.
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:29 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:00 pm
DarkPlatinum,
I've told everyone I know to wait to buy a Pi 4 rather than a 3B+
Why? You did them a disservice.

If the Pi 4 does not come out for another year they will be wasting a year waiting. Missing out on a lot of fun and learning opportunities. Not getting stuff done that they could get done today.

When the Pi 4 comes out times will have moved on. People will already be looking to the next best thing. Will you then advise them to wait for the Pi 5?
They were planning on waiting anyway. The reason why I suggested is that the node process is decreasing. And when new versions of pi come out (pi1, 2, 3, 4) there is usually something good coming ;) And for the second question the answer is no. I would only advise them to wait for the Pi 4 because it is known that they have changed the node process. When the Pi 4 comes out, there will most likely be 4A+, and a 4B+ (just guessing here based on Pi 3) Pi 3 came out in 2016, its 2019 so im obviously not going to ask them to wait 3-5 years for a new Pi.
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:54 pm

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:29 pm
Heater wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:00 pm
DarkPlatinum,
I've told everyone I know to wait to buy a Pi 4 rather than a 3B+
Why? You did them a disservice.

If the Pi 4 does not come out for another year they will be wasting a year waiting. Missing out on a lot of fun and learning opportunities. Not getting stuff done that they could get done today.

When the Pi 4 comes out times will have moved on. People will already be looking to the next best thing. Will you then advise them to wait for the Pi 5?
They were planning on waiting anyway. The reason why I suggested is that the node process is decreasing. And when new versions of pi come out (pi1, 2, 3, 4) there is usually something good coming ;) And for the second question the answer is no. I would only advise them to wait for the Pi 4 because it is known that they have changed the node process. When the Pi 4 comes out, there will most likely be 4A+, and a 4B+ (just guessing here based on Pi 3) Pi 3 came out in 2016, its 2019 so im obviously not going to ask them to wait 3-5 years for a new Pi.
Why the emphasis on the node process? Most people have no idea what that means, s oas long as the device does what they need, it's fairly irrelevent.
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bensimmo
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:16 pm

Word has it, jamesh only applied for a job a RaspberryPi as he couldn't take waiting for the next gen Pi details.
Luckily he now works there...




P.S. node process, really that's pretty irrelevant to anything with respect to using it.

pi4b
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:28 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:28 pm
To answer, the databus to the Ram and the controller itself are limited to 1Gb. It would require a new controller to increase memory. There's another reason that escapes me.

As for two chips, the associated circuitry to deal with two chips and plug them together is prohibitive. Notwithstanding the cost of 2Socs on the board. Much easier to add cores inside the SoC where all that is handled. Although adding more cores has it own problems. 4 is a sweet spot.
Thanks, out of the numerous responses to my post, this is the only one that was simple, direct, and useful.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:41 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:16 pm
Word has it, jamesh only applied for a job a RaspberryPi as he couldn't take waiting for the next gen Pi details.
Luckily he now works there...

P.S. node process, really that's pretty irrelevant to anything with respect to using it.
TBH, I was volunteering for 5 years before joining (and technically didn't apply), and have always had advanced access to new product since before the original launch. Helps having worked at Brcm!

If the Pi4 is `cool`, I wonder how I shall refer to the Pi5 when that comes to the fore. Hmm. Think I might go for `terrific`.
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:59 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:53 am
How old is the VC4 design now, 10years?
Easily. It's been in Pis for 7 years and wasn't new then.
Speculation a VC5/6 will address more?
But the current VC5 used in those Set Top boxes does not have everything the VC4 has.
While it's speculation, I think it has a very good chance of being true.
The amount or RAM it will come with depends on RAM pricing at the time in 2020 or 2021 or whenever it shows up.
This, exactly. It's why I think that the first run of Pi4B boards *may* carry 1GB. I think it's a virtual certainty that it won't be less (this in spite of the 512MB on the Pi3A+ at present).
USB3 will give the Pi4 the speed for faster SSD etc.
USB3 would bring the I/O up to the point of data rates equivalent to SATA-II, but not to SATA-III. This would be a MAJOR improvement is mass storage I/O capability. It would probably enable a Pi to run an HDD flat out or make decent use of an SSD. It won't come anywhere near making full use of a SATA-III SSD, let alone a PCIe based SSD. However, in spite of those limitations, it should be fast enough for 2 to 4 generations of Pis.

In the longer term, USB 3.1 (10Gb/s) and USB 4 (40 Gb/s) are for the relatively far future.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:41 pm
If the Pi4 is `cool`, I wonder how I shall refer to the Pi5 when that comes to the fore. Hmm. Think I might go for `terrific`.
How about the bee's knees? Or would that be more fitting for the Pi6?
She who travels light — forgot something.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:02 pm

Some dates. The Videocore4 is a development of the VC3, which is a development of the VC02, which is a development of the VC01. The VC01 was designed at Alphamosiac, which was started up in 2000. So the VC bloodline goes back to 2000.

The VC4 was developed about 8-9 years ago, although it took a LOT of stuff from VC03.

Note when talking about VC5, only the 3D HW block was really developed past the disbanding of the Broadcom multimedia group.
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:13 pm

Paeryn wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:10 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:41 pm
If the Pi4 is `cool`, I wonder how I shall refer to the Pi5 when that comes to the fore. Hmm. Think I might go for `terrific`.
How about the bee's knees? Or would that be more fitting for the Pi6?
Dog's bo*l**ks

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:58 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm
Cool is not an attitude - It's a state of mind. Imagine an eagle flying through the Rocky Mountains, suddenly, it spies its prey, and falls, falls, falls, it's wings guiding it, but to what?

Think of the primitive thoughts cascading through the eagles mind as it plummets towards the rocks below. That is the Pi4.
I was recently reprimanded for clarifying the meaning of "grocery"; now a hungry eagle is being equated to a Pi4.

60-odd years ago, a group of herring gulls were circling near the prom at Minehead. A young lad held aloft a chip; a gull swept round and took it.
Another chip, another gull. And so it went.
I wonder what the gulls thought; I know the lad thought it was cool.

Heater
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:08 pm

Somehow seagulls and chips at Minehead does not quite have the same poetic imagery as James' Eagle in the Rocky Mountains.

I once saw a seabird steal an ice cream out of the hand of a teenage girl as she walked through Helsinki's Esplanadi. She was about as terrified as that mouse.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:20 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:57 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:06 am
I cant help but think a lot of the replies here very rude.
Certainly, these types of threads are a dime a dozen and certainly all the folk who've been here a few months can see the trend.
But a new user doesn't know this and shouldn't be belittled when asking such questions. Surely a polite "this gets asked frequently, here is why it's not going to work as you think", is all that is needed?
If you feel a post is inappropriate, please report it. Mods are mostly reactive, not proactive, so although I have read this thread, and commented on it, I won't delete stuff unless a) Its reported and I agree or b) is so bad I delete it immediately on reading
The idea wasn't so much as to get the offending posts removed as much as it was to make the community think before responding.
Silently removing posts does nothing to alert the poster that their words are potentially harmful.

It seems the post I was referencing has already been removed.
55:55:44:44:4C
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:56 pm

Before she who must be obeyed grounded me I used to fly paragliders.
When I was heading for the ground at a great rate of knots I wasn't thinking of lunch.
I was thinking "this is going to hurt". It did, twice.

Coding on Pi's is not my natural environment - yet ;)
And I did read Johnathan Livingston Seagull.

But the Month Python reference is to the Holy Grail.
The search for the perfect Pi?

I do miss the paraglider, flying was the only thing that stopped me thinking of work :lol:
Whenever the Pi4 is released I will swoop down and grab a pair, no need to think about that.
More like a Magpie than an Eagle, "Ooh shiny, must have, mine, mine, mine."

As for P4 questions, they will be answered when it shows up and then we can start asking about Pi5.
For those holding off and waiting, you are loosing valuable learning time.
Must be young?
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cjan
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:26 am

easy guys, they will release on 1st Apr.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:55 am

spock wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:57 am
i think the main features are pretty much clear (usb3 and support for more ram) but how they will achieve it while keeping backward compatibility (will they?)... i have no idea... :)
People would *like* USB3. People would *like* support for more RAM. However, there is nothing to suggest that those features will actually be part of the SoC that goes into the Pi4. It is *speculation* that those features will be present.

Now, as it happens, I think there is a decent chance that those features will be present in the Pi4 SoC, but I have no hard data indicating that they will be.

The only (near) certainties are: $35 price, 28nm or less node, not being released this year. Since I have no idea what sorts of things our esteemed moderator considers to be "cool", I won't try to guess what the new features may be.

shivansps
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:33 am

This is easy, faster CPU means nothing whiout faster GPU, faster CPU/GPU means nothing whiout more RAM, more RAM means nothing whiout faster CPU/GPU, faster CPU/GPU/More RAM means nothing whiout faster I/O... You petty much need all 4 in RPI4. So if you ask me im seeing a 2GB, Quad-Core A55, with VC5 and USB 3.0 as the RPI 4. With a more expensive 4GB version.

And from what im seeing with W10 ARM on RPI3, RPI4 is likely to be able to run full Windows desktop, this is not a small thing, althought Raspbian will remain the main OS.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:02 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:55 am
The only (near) certainties are: $35 price, 28nm or less node, not being released this year.
I don't think even that is guaranteed.
When the Pi3A+ was released, Eben Upton mentioned it was a fitting farewell to the "classic Pi"
So there's no guarantee the Pi4 will even look like a B model Pi. It might be circular. Pi model C for $40
Who's to say the price will remain the same? Perhaps a Pi4B will be $35, but nobody here (except Jamesh and a select few others) knows if a Pi4B even is the next Pi.


All this is, is speculation, and all of it is pointless.
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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:41 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:02 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:55 am
The only (near) certainties are: $35 price, 28nm or less node, not being released this year.
I don't think even that is guaranteed.
When the Pi3A+ was released, Eben Upton mentioned it was a fitting farewell to the "classic Pi"
In the sense that it's the last Pi with a 40nm process SoC, it is the end of the "classic Pi".
So there's no guarantee the Pi4 will even look like a B model Pi. It might be circular. Pi model C for $40
Who's to say the price will remain the same? Perhaps a Pi4B will be $35, but nobody here (except Jamesh and a select few others) knows if a Pi4B even is the next Pi.


All this is, is speculation, and all of it is pointless.
Well.... I did hedge with "(near) certainty". Unless there is a major economic upset (like hyperinflation), I think it's rather likely the price will hold. As for the name, see that interview with Tom's Hardware. He says the next Pi will be a Pi4 and his other remarks make "Pi4B" an odds on bet.

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Re: Pi 4 questions

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:47 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm
Think of the primitive thoughts cascading through the eagles mind as it plummets towards the rocks below. That is the Pi4.
While a computer that plummets towards the rocks is not exactly the kind I want, it is interesting to imagine what features could make the Pi 4 so cool that it continues to stand out from the multitude of competing single-board computers that already have more RAM, USB 3, true gigabit Ethernet, 28nm process size and Linux. Just thinking about the magical things that might be in store makes me want to skip sleeping tonight and continue programming the Pi computers I already have.

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