User avatar
thagrol
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: Darkest Somerset, UK
Contact: Website

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am

chwe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:02 pm
smart.. those guys.. as said.. those problems are solved.. ;)
I think you've once again countered your argument for eMMC to built in to a Pi.

Clearly there are multiple ways to acheive it already and multiple alternative boards that have it.

So why are you spending time and risking the ire of the mods by arguing for something that A. ain't gonna happen, and B. can be added by the end user if they really want it?

I don't have a problem with folks asking for new features provided they have done their research first (OP requesting eMMC clearly hadn't) and appreciate how big a task it actually is (OP didn't).

In terms of fruitoftheloom's general features list, I suspect it has a lot to do with computers now being commodity items and the dominance of the Intel/AMD/Windows PC. Those of us who were around during the whole 80's home computer revolution are well aware that different platforms are not compitable with each other. Someone brought up on PCs with a Pi as their first non-windows box won't be.

And before you bring up smart phones, game consoles, smart TVs, etc. To most end users those probably aren't thought of as computers, they're phones, games consoles, smart TVs, etc

As always: personal opinion, I have no connection with RPF/RPT, etc...
Arguing with strangers on the internet since 1993.

chwe
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:51 am

thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
chwe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:02 pm
smart.. those guys.. as said.. those problems are solved.. ;)
I think you've once again countered your argument for eMMC to built in to a Pi.
why? this adapter isn't supposed to be used the whole time.. :lol: It's only there if you want to program it! e.g. for a Rockchip device and people who don't want to use maskroom mode to flash stuff to their eMMC. with the adapter you can just use the average tool you're familiar (e.g. win32 diskimager for the not so smart people and something like etcher.io for those who care about integrity of images)... I would never use my eMMC modules in such an adapter permanently.. that's just a weird idea...
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
So why are you spending time and risking the ire of the mods by arguing for something that A. ain't gonna happen, and B. can be added by the end user if they really want it?
Well there's not much a risk here.. If for whatever reasons the mods here think it's better to hide my opinion.. It's their decision. I've only one use-case where I still use a RPi.. Everything else works perfectly on other SBCs. ;) So I'm happily fearless here.. And even for this use-case, I'm smart enough to read docs or use google to figure out stuff I don't know. ;)
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
In terms of fruitoftheloom's general features list, I suspect it has a lot to do with computers now being commodity items and the dominance of the Intel/AMD/Windows PC. Those of us who were around during the whole 80's home computer revolution are well aware that different platforms are not compitable with each other. Someone brought up on PCs with a Pi as their first non-windows box won't be.
Well.. I grew up in the Intel only time.. Okay we had also once a VIA at home.. :lol: and if I'm not completely wrong a transmeta too but let's face it.. they sucked always.. :lol:
User-expectations are always hard to deal with.. I know this quite well from the other forum I'm a way more active than here.. Users using the most crappy SD-Card they can buy (something which can't happen with eMMC ;) ) combined with a random cheap usb-charger with a 1.5m long microUSB cable with thin wires is actually the most annoying group to deal with.. A problem which is hopefully solved properly as soon as more SBCs with USB-C and proper PD implementation will show up.. For the rest, we can more or less always suggest a board which fulfill his or her dreams.. (sometimes not in the price-range they are willing to pay, but well that's their problem.. ).
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
As always: personal opinion, I have no connection with RPF/RPT, etc...
well do I need a disclaimer here as well? :P I don't speak on the project I'm tied to (we deal with many of those RPi competitors, that's why I know a few of them quite well and most SoCs currently soldered to random SBCs - I don't know RPis SoC well cause we don't offer Images for raspberries.. ;) ) nor the university I'm finishing my studies it's just my opinion... :lol: and to be clear here.. I'm not payed by the project, I just spend my spare-time there..

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12949
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 am

chwe wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:51 am
Well.. I grew up in the Intel only time.. Okay we had also once a VIA at home.. :lol: and if I'm not completely wrong a transmeta too but let's face it.. they sucked always.. :lol:
Intel has always had competitors. Most of the time they have also had compatible competitors. Occasionally--at least for some uses--Intel has been beaten at their own game. AMD has done that twice. First with the Athlons and Opterons and now with the Zen/EPYC/and Zen2 chips.

Even earlier, VIA and AMD had faster '486 CPUs than Intel ever made.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 23801
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:13 am

chwe wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:51 am
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
chwe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:02 pm
smart.. those guys.. as said.. those problems are solved.. ;)
I think you've once again countered your argument for eMMC to built in to a Pi.
why? this adapter isn't supposed to be used the whole time.. :lol: It's only there if you want to program it! e.g. for a Rockchip device and people who don't want to use maskroom mode to flash stuff to their eMMC. with the adapter you can just use the average tool you're familiar (e.g. win32 diskimager for the not so smart people and something like etcher.io for those who care about integrity of images)... I would never use my eMMC modules in such an adapter permanently.. that's just a weird idea...
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
So why are you spending time and risking the ire of the mods by arguing for something that A. ain't gonna happen, and B. can be added by the end user if they really want it?
Well there's not much a risk here.. If for whatever reasons the mods here think it's better to hide my opinion.. It's their decision. I've only one use-case where I still use a RPi.. Everything else works perfectly on other SBCs. ;) So I'm happily fearless here.. And even for this use-case, I'm smart enough to read docs or use google to figure out stuff I don't know. ;)
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
In terms of fruitoftheloom's general features list, I suspect it has a lot to do with computers now being commodity items and the dominance of the Intel/AMD/Windows PC. Those of us who were around during the whole 80's home computer revolution are well aware that different platforms are not compitable with each other. Someone brought up on PCs with a Pi as their first non-windows box won't be.
Well.. I grew up in the Intel only time.. Okay we had also once a VIA at home.. :lol: and if I'm not completely wrong a transmeta too but let's face it.. they sucked always.. :lol:
User-expectations are always hard to deal with.. I know this quite well from the other forum I'm a way more active than here.. Users using the most crappy SD-Card they can buy (something which can't happen with eMMC ;) ) combined with a random cheap usb-charger with a 1.5m long microUSB cable with thin wires is actually the most annoying group to deal with.. A problem which is hopefully solved properly as soon as more SBCs with USB-C and proper PD implementation will show up.. For the rest, we can more or less always suggest a board which fulfill his or her dreams.. (sometimes not in the price-range they are willing to pay, but well that's their problem.. ).
thagrol wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:04 am
As always: personal opinion, I have no connection with RPF/RPT, etc...
well do I need a disclaimer here as well? :P I don't speak on the project I'm tied to (we deal with many of those RPi competitors, that's why I know a few of them quite well and most SoCs currently soldered to random SBCs - I don't know RPis SoC well cause we don't offer Images for raspberries.. ;) ) nor the university I'm finishing my studies it's just my opinion... :lol: and to be clear here.. I'm not payed by the project, I just spend my spare-time there..

So basically you are not really interested in Raspberry Pi and just playing devils advocate.
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
RPi 4B 4GB (SSD Boot) RaspiOS64 ARM64
Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26826
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:26 am

And, the usual group of dicks have done their thing, and this thread is now pretty useless because its full of crap.

So, Hippy, Heater, Fruit etc, just wind your necks in or you will be on the receiving end of a ban. And that goes for all the other thread where you weight in and derail them. My news years resolution, be ruthless to people being dicks on the forum, whoever they are. And to everyone, please report any posts from anyone where you think they have gone too far in disparaging other users of the forum.


As for simply adding a connector, very early in this thread I gave an example of how expensive this actually is. Notwithstanding dev costs, connectors are quite a few cents each, lets say $0.25. Wow I hear you cry, that's really cheap. BUT, the connector is on every board, and lets say we sell 4 Million boards in a year. That's $1M spent on connectors. Lets say 100k people use that connector (and I think that is optimistic), we have spent an extra $975k on connectors that didn't get used, and that comes straight out of our profits.

We could of course put the price up - but that would be as most people would be paying for a feature they don't use.

Orange Pi etc can get away with populating their boards with everything they can think of, because they sell in MUCH lower quantities, so the effect is greatly reduced, and they are not quite so restricted by keeping to a specific price point.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26826
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:43 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:26 am
And, the usual group of dicks have done their thing, and this thread is now pretty useless because its full of crap.

So, Hippy, Heater, Fruit etc, just wind your necks in or you will be on the receiving end of a ban. And that goes for all the other thread where you weight in and derail them. My news years resolution, be ruthless to people being dicks on the forum, whoever they are. And to everyone, please report any posts from anyone where you think they have gone too far in disparaging other users of the forum.


As for simply adding a connector, very early in this thread I gave an example of how expensive this actually is. Notwithstanding dev costs, connectors are quite a few cents each, lets say $0.25. Wow I hear you cry, that's really cheap. BUT, the connector is on every board, and lets say we sell 4 Million boards in a year. That's $1M spent on connectors. Lets say 100k people use that connector (and I think that is optimistic), we have spent an extra $975k on connectors that didn't get used, and that comes straight out of our profits.

We could of course put the price up - but that would be as most people would be paying for a feature they don't use.

Orange Pi etc can get away with populating their boards with everything they can think of, because they sell in MUCH lower quantities, so the effect is greatly reduced, and they are not quite so restricted by keeping to a specific price point.
One final comment on this. eMMC has been considered for the main Pi range, but the costs of it mean we simply would not be able to meet the price points required. And that applies to future products as well.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

Return to “General discussion”