andrum99
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:07 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm
Thank you so much for the reply

We respect the Raspberry Foundation very much. The first Raspberry Pi was a miracle, and the fit of all Raspberry models too great.

A wonderful team created Raspberry Pi and it was a very difficult job.

Our thought is to give ideas for its evolution.

In the sector of computers even the pioneers if they do not evolve, disappear. An example is IBM.

The question is what needs Raspberry Pi needs to be in 10 years to be outdone by other Pi.

I think the Raspberry Pi design department should be more daring in designing new Raspberry Pi. Look at what other Pi units offer and adopt some of their successful applications.

The solution with the CM3 that I am proposing is very expensive. You know that other Pi (Orange pi pc plus) have emmc with very low board costs (25 euro). The truth is that they do not yet have a stable operating system.
But it takes a few years to make a stable operating system.
There's clearly pros and cons with any system. The advantage with the Raspberry Pi is that the software is mature enough that you can rely on it. I'm not sure about EMMC. Perhaps the solution is an official expansion board like the PoE board.

andrum99
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:10 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV
The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.
The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.
The Compute Module is not aimed at end users. It is aimed at companies that want more freedom to design their own product without being constrained by what the "normal" Pi has on it. It's not designed to be difficult, it is just aimed at a different market.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:49 pm

around'n'around.jpg
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:06 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:10 pm
The Compute Module is not aimed at end users. It is aimed at companies that want more freedom to design their own product without being constrained by what the "normal" Pi has on it. It's not designed to be difficult, it is just aimed at a different market.
While that is true, it isn't the complete picture. There is nothing preventing end users from using CMs. Plus, as evidenced by some of the links posted in this thread, there is a market for carrier boards that are useful to end users. In that context, I have to say that regret that WD Labs shut down and their SATA adapter is no longer available (it is also unfortunate that the ones produced later had some...problems...with the CM3L, though I should go back and try again as newer software releases may have fixed that).

Perhaps one could suggest that CMs and carrier boards are suitable for "advanced end users". The ones that want, know how to use, and know the limitations of eMMC and are willing to buy what it takes to get it.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:50 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:06 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:10 pm
The Compute Module is not aimed at end users. It is aimed at companies that want more freedom to design their own product without being constrained by what the "normal" Pi has on it. It's not designed to be difficult, it is just aimed at a different market.
While that is true, it isn't the complete picture. There is nothing preventing end users from using CMs.
I wasn't suggesting there was anything preventing end users from using CMs. What I meant was that it is not reasonable to expect the Compute Module be easy or cheap for an end user to use, since it is designed for a different market.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:14 am

andrum99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:50 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:06 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:10 pm
The Compute Module is not aimed at end users. It is aimed at companies that want more freedom to design their own product without being constrained by what the "normal" Pi has on it. It's not designed to be difficult, it is just aimed at a different market.
While that is true, it isn't the complete picture. There is nothing preventing end users from using CMs.
I wasn't suggesting there was anything preventing end users from using CMs. What I meant was that it is not reasonable to expect the Compute Module be easy or cheap for an end user to use, since it is designed for a different market.
For some values of "easy"... I didn't find it all that diffcult to use. Yes, it's designed for a different market, but, then, the Pi itself is designed for a different market than the one where most people are using it. After all, how many kids-learning-coding are there in this discussion?

As the recently post cartoon points out, one can go around and around on this topic and not get anywhere. While a few people would like the Pi to include on-board eMMC, there is no indication that the RPF/RPT are going in that direction. The net result is, if you want on-board eMMC, then you either use a different SBC, or you use the CM/CM3. There are many other features for which choices like this are necessary. In the end, if you want a feature, in some way shape or form, you're going to pay for it. If you want the price and support level of a Pi, you're not going to get on-board eMMC unless and until the RPF/RPT decide that it makes sense to them to include it, and not before (and maybe never).

I suppose in the final analysis, the appropriate question to ask of those that really want eMMC is, just *how* badly (in terms of dollars) it is wanted. Perhaps those wanting eMMC on a Pi should pool their resources and make use of the Element 14 custom Pi service to have the board of their dreams made...if there are enough people that want it (a good test of viability in it's own right), they can agree on exactly what they want, and they can--collectively--pony up the funds to pay for it.

Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:53 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:14 am
andrum99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:50 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:06 pm

While that is true, it isn't the complete picture. There is nothing preventing end users from using CMs.
I wasn't suggesting there was anything preventing end users from using CMs. What I meant was that it is not reasonable to expect the Compute Module be easy or cheap for an end user to use, since it is designed for a different market.
For some values of "easy"... I didn't find it all that diffcult to use. Yes, it's designed for a different market, but, then, the Pi itself is designed for a different market than the one where most people are using it. After all, how many kids-learning-coding are there in this discussion?

As the recently post cartoon points out, one can go around and around on this topic and not get anywhere. While a few people would like the Pi to include on-board eMMC, there is no indication that the RPF/RPT are going in that direction. The net result is, if you want on-board eMMC, then you either use a different SBC, or you use the CM/CM3. There are many other features for which choices like this are necessary. In the end, if you want a feature, in some way shape or form, you're going to pay for it. If you want the price and support level of a Pi, you're not going to get on-board eMMC unless and until the RPF/RPT decide that it makes sense to them to include it, and not before (and maybe never).

I suppose in the final analysis, the appropriate question to ask of those that really want eMMC is, just *how* badly (in terms of dollars) it is wanted. Perhaps those wanting eMMC on a Pi should pool their resources and make use of the Element 14 custom Pi service to have the board of their dreams made...if there are enough people that want it (a good test of viability in it's own right), they can agree on exactly what they want, and they can--collectively--pony up the funds to pay for it.
Please see a very simple design.

http://www.diktio-kapa.dos.gr/ftp/BPi/R ... %200.7.jpg

A Composition of a Computer Module with an empty Board RPi B3 + with plenty of space for Connections to CM Connector. Is a Board which will require material removal and not additions, which are difficult to design. Connections between the materials could only be done at the two levels of the Board, without the need for more levels

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:54 am

all these talk about "...I want this....", "... would like to have this....", etc

...without committing to investing financially and technically....

you all just go in circles... on and on... in the end it just boils down to:

".... you want something done.... you have to do it yourself....."

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:50 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:53 am
Please see a very simple design.

http://www.diktio-kapa.dos.gr/ftp/BPi/R ... %200.7.jpg

A Composition of a Computer Module with an empty Board RPi B3 + with plenty of space for Connections to CM Connector. Is a Board which will require material removal and not additions, which are difficult to design. Connections between the materials could only be done at the two levels of the Board, without the need for more levels
So when will you have that carrier board in production, and at what retail price? Will you be able to program the CMs eMMC flash in situ, or will you need another carrier to do that? (That last question because I don't see a way to do it with that board layout.)

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:15 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:50 am
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:53 am
Please see a very simple design.

http://www.diktio-kapa.dos.gr/ftp/BPi/R ... %200.7.jpg

A Composition of a Computer Module with an empty Board RPi B3 + with plenty of space for Connections to CM Connector. Is a Board which will require material removal and not additions, which are difficult to design. Connections between the materials could only be done at the two levels of the Board, without the need for more levels
So when will you have that carrier board in production, and at what retail price? Will you be able to program the CMs eMMC flash in situ, or will you need another carrier to do that? (That last question because I don't see a way to do it with that board layout.)

https://store.gumstix.com/gumstix-pi-co ... board.html

https://store.gumstix.com/raspberry-pi- ... flash.html

https://store.balena.io/collections/bal ... a-fin-64gb
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:18 am

Best wishes to RPF and all for 2019.

I for one think the micro-SD has proven to be an excellent choice. Cheap, user-upgradable, reliable enough.
In fact I hope the next “B” form factor will be able to accommodate 2 holders (while retaining all other features). One SD for the “boot firmware”/recovery OS, one SD for the system. I think this would allow both flexibility and robustness.

I do not think a super-capable bios would be a good feature. It’s never capable enough and development/troubleshooting is hard. I do not really care either for built-in solid state storage that could go bad, wouldn’t be upgradable/replaceable, and might require uncommon drivers or tools.

Just my 2cts, based on some experience with Pi3b.
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème." Les Shadoks, J. Rouxel


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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:05 pm


Will this "new" design include a BoM :?:
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:24 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:05 pm

Will this "new" design include a BoM :?:
Even if it does it isn't a simple design. Nor a cheap one.

A whole set of modules to design, a bus to design, conflict resolution to design and implement (what happens if the user plugs in more than one CPU module, or multiple modules of any given type?), hotswap protection, mechanical support for the outer ends of modules, and more...

I've lost count of how many supposedly simple ideas I've encountered that turned out to be anything but simple in the implimentation.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:28 pm

Lots of proposals. Proposals are cheap. I don't see a lot of actual products.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:34 pm

Nothing there that would we would even vaguely consider to implement, just way too expensive and with very little demand.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:13 pm

You know what I take away from this and similar "can we have feature X, it's a simple change" threads?

Most folks asking for new features over estimate the demand (I want it so lots of other people will) and under estimate the actual amount of work needed (it just needs a new header fitting).

To give a real world example, take Brexit.

A simple decision (to leave the European Union) but a whole load of work and cost with an as yet undecided outcome that clearly no one considered when the decision was made.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, just to provide a topical example of a "simple" change with big consequences.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:46 pm

thagrol wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:13 pm
You know what I take away from this and similar "can we have feature X, it's a simple change" threads?

Most folks asking for new features over estimate the demand (I want it so lots of other people will) and under estimate the actual amount of work needed (it just needs a new header fitting).
So true... A combination of imagining what it takes to do something by someone who doesn't actually know how to do it, and selection bias (I want this, and so do my half a dozen buddies...therefore, *everyone* must want it).

I see this more often in computer game forums where people request, what they assert is an *easy*/simple change that "everyone" wants (because they and they friends would like it), all without any knowledge of the code base involved or even programming skills to be able to make a guess at what it takes or the hard learned lesson that the most dangerous thing in the world is the "one line change".

At this point, my *one* enhancement wish for the Pi is faster I/O. My *guess* is that the likeliest route to that is USB 3. Literally every other potential change to the Pi constitutes--at *most*--a "nice to have". Many proposed changes don't even rise to that level.

The one thing I have been happy to see out of this thread is that the current 5 year roadmap extends to the Pi5. I have some modest hope of living to see *that* board get launched...

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:57 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:45 pm
A new proposal of simple design
A simple design ?

Other than some copy/paste in a paint/graphics app what other design has gone into this?
  • Requirements gathering (what do people really want and how many)
  • Parts list and costs (BOM)
  • Routing of high speed traces
  • Routing of parallel busses
  • EMI/RF design - For the signals that should get out do they (wifi/bt) and for the signals that shouldn't get out are they suppressed enough (clocks etc)
  • Support and documentation
  • User feedback (market research on a detailed design)
(and the various things I've forgotten in that list)

Realistically a useful design requires a lot more than just 10 minutes in paint. (I'm not even sure what's supposed to be on half that design)

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:29 am

Just in case anyone is wondering why this thread is still open, I think it has a useful educational purpose. As people have stated, when coming up with ideas you need to consider a lot of things that most people forget, and that is where the education comes in. So rather than posting silly pictures or insulting paragraphs, try and educate.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:29 am
Just in case anyone is wondering why this thread is still open, I think it has a useful educational purpose. As people have stated, when coming up with ideas you need to consider a lot of things that most people forget, and that is where the education comes in. So rather than posting silly pictures or insulting paragraphs, try and educate.

Okee Dokee but some people do not understand whatever you inform them, hence why we have had regular posts of this nature over the last 8 years.
:?
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:19 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:29 am
Just in case anyone is wondering why this thread is still open, I think it has a useful educational purpose. As people have stated, when coming up with ideas you need to consider a lot of things that most people forget, and that is where the education comes in. So rather than posting silly pictures or insulting paragraphs, try and educate.

Okee Dokee but some people do not understand whatever you inform them, hence why we have had regular posts of this nature over the last 8 years.
:?
In which case, bowing out gracefully would be the best approach.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:55 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am
... but some people do not understand whatever you inform them, hence why we have had regular posts of this nature over the last 8 years.
Are you sure it's the same person not understanding, each time?
Or does one person come along, make a suggestion, get educated, and stand aside, ready for the next in line to do the same? Rinse & Repeat, ad infinitum?

There are 7 billion people on this planet, all needing education ... and that's just one planet in Known Space.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:09 am

Burngate wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:55 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am
... but some people do not understand whatever you inform them, hence why we have had regular posts of this nature over the last 8 years.
Are you sure it's the same person not understanding, each time?
Or does one person come along, make a suggestion, get educated, and stand aside, ready for the next in line to do the same? Rinse & Repeat, ad infinitum?

There are 7 billion people on this planet, all needing education ... and that's just one planet in Known Space.

I personally do not understand where people get these ideas from, is it laziness they can not google, are they bored with what RPT offer them, do they not understand that some bright spark has to develop a product, and the list goes on. There are many things computer related that over the years I thought was a good idea until Google Search showed me that in actual fact someone somewhere had considered.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blue-sky_thinking (1)
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:04 pm

I have been on this forum probably about a year and this is not the first time I've seen this kind of thinking. Look at the sticky thread named rpi4.
However much I would love faster storage I would rather only pay $35 and use SD cards which are more or less cheaper because in reality we are usually limited by the processor and ram than the SD card anyway.
I prefer to do something useful with my time rather than talk about whether this or that should be on the pi because of everybody got what they wanted it would be the size of a truck.
Last edited by Will5455 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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