mfa298
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:07 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
From what's been hinted at there's already a lot of progress for the pi4, in terms of thagrols list of steps (taking it in a more generic form rather than eMMC specific) many of those steps have probably been ticked off already (potentially after several itterations). Each of those steps will have a price associated as well as time.

As W.H.Heydt said above, there has been progress with each itteration of the models and that is expected to continue with the pi4 and pi5 ranges (it's also been hinted that the Engineering team have already started on the pi5 - although that may only be some early designs/specifications).

Going back to the question of eMMC I've got some boards with both eMMC and raw NAND chips, whilst it's nice having storage integrated it does increase the complexity and also adds other issues. The boards with raw NAND are particularly problematic as they don't have another way to easily boot and they're much more reliant on the OS doing the right thing. For the most part I stick with my raspberries as I know if I plug in a good sd card they'll just work and keep going with regular updates, for the others it takes more effort and skill from myself to keep things going (last time I tried one of the eMMC boards it needed fixes in the kernel to enable eMMC)

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
Everything we have done so far has evolved the original design. I know the specs of the Pi4. It's not an evolution, it's a revolution and a HUGE step up.

Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:18 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
Everything we have done so far has evolved the original design. I know the specs of the Pi4. It's not an evolution, it's a revolution and a HUGE step up.

Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
I wonder if it is possible to expose an EMMC compatible interface via an unpopulated header? Or perhaps this can already be done via the GPIO header. I would imagine the Pi 4 would have at least 2 SD/MMC interfaces so it shouldn't be that difficult to route one out to a header. Not sure about the cost implication of doing this though.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:11 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:18 pm
I wonder if it is possible to expose an EMMC compatible interface via an unpopulated header? Or perhaps this can already be done via the GPIO header. I would imagine the Pi 4 would have at least 2 SD/MMC interfaces so it shouldn't be that difficult to route one out to a header. Not sure about the cost implication of doing this though.
Last time I checked the SDIO interface could be exposed on the GPIO but you'd lose access to the onboard wifi.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:16 pm

mfa298 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:07 am

From what's been hinted at there's already a lot of progress for the pi4, in terms of thagrols list of steps (taking it in a more generic form rather than eMMC specific) many of those steps have probably been ticked off already (potentially after several itterations).
Yep, but if the change you want (in this case eMMC) isn't already part of that design it'll all need to be done again. About the only time you can get a change for (near) free is if you introduce it right at the begining of the process.

Edit: "Yep" is an acknowledgement of the probability. It is not a statement of where the Pi4 is in developemnt. I have no connection with RPF/RPT other than as a user of their products. And consequently no insider knowledge.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am
Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
Shush, spoilers... ;-)
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:40 pm

rpdom wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am
Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
Shush, spoilers... ;-)
Congrats on 21,000 posts.
Well, fitting all the tracks on the Pi3B+ was quite a trial apparently, and that isn't going to get any easier with the 4!

And thanks!
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Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm

Thank you so much for the reply

We respect the Raspberry Foundation very much. The first Raspberry Pi was a miracle, and the fit of all Raspberry models too great.

A wonderful team created Raspberry Pi and it was a very difficult job.

Our thought is to give ideas for its evolution.

In the sector of computers even the pioneers if they do not evolve, disappear. An example is IBM.

The question is what needs Raspberry Pi needs to be in 10 years to be outdone by other Pi.

I think the Raspberry Pi design department should be more daring in designing new Raspberry Pi. Look at what other Pi units offer and adopt some of their successful applications.

The solution with the CM3 that I am proposing is very expensive. You know that other Pi (Orange pi pc plus) have emmc with very low board costs (25 euro). The truth is that they do not yet have a stable operating system.
But it takes a few years to make a stable operating system.

Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:20 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm
Thank you so much for the reply

We respect the Raspberry Foundation very much. The first Raspberry Pi was a miracle, and the fit of all Raspberry models too great.

A wonderful team created Raspberry Pi and it was a very difficult job.

Our thought is to give ideas for its evolution.

In the sector of computers even the pioneers if they do not evolve, disappear. An example is IBM.

The question is what needs Raspberry Pi needs to be in 10 years to be outdone by other Pi.

I think the Raspberry Pi design department should be more daring in designing new Raspberry Pi. Look at what other Pi units offer and adopt some of their successful applications.

The solution with the CM3 that I am proposing is very expensive. You know that other Pi (Orange pi pc plus) have emmc with very low board costs (25 euro). The truth is that they do not yet have a stable operating system.
But it takes a few years to make a stable operating system.

The majority of "look alike" Pis are from China, how much support do the Chinese Government provide so they can be sold at that price point ?

When comparing the nearest in terms of product quality and support are Hardkernel: https://www.hardkernel.com/product/
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:25 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV

https://www.waveshare.com/compute-modul ... d-plus.htm


16GB eMMC Compute Module:

https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p ... ODEL.xhtml
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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mfa298
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:33 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm
In the sector of computers even the pioneers if they do not evolve, disappear. An example is IBM.
Yes IBM is a good example of a pioneer that's been evolving over the years and is still going, same as I'm sure the Raspberry Pi will be.
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm
You know that other Pi (Orange pi pc plus) have emmc with very low board costs (25 euro). The truth is that they do not yet have a stable operating system.
But it takes a few years to make a stable operating system.
There was an article ~18 months ago that suggested that the reason the likes of Orange Pi's are so cheap is because they don't have to cover all the design, engineering and support costs.
https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/08/21/or ... pixunlong/

(I'm only aware of the one source for that so can't say for sure it's accurate, but it's an interesting reason to consider)

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV
The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:13 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:10 pm
Thank you so much for the reply

We respect the Raspberry Foundation very much. The first Raspberry Pi was a miracle, and the fit of all Raspberry models too great.

A wonderful team created Raspberry Pi and it was a very difficult job.

Our thought is to give ideas for its evolution.

In the sector of computers even the pioneers if they do not evolve, disappear. An example is IBM.

The question is what needs Raspberry Pi needs to be in 10 years to be outdone by other Pi.

I think the Raspberry Pi design department should be more daring in designing new Raspberry Pi. Look at what other Pi units offer and adopt some of their successful applications.

The solution with the CM3 that I am proposing is very expensive. You know that other Pi (Orange pi pc plus) have emmc with very low board costs (25 euro). The truth is that they do not yet have a stable operating system.
But it takes a few years to make a stable operating system.
We have a 4-5 year plan from this point (past Pi5), trying to predict past 5 years is a fools game. Who knows what a SBC in 10 years will look like? No-one.

A lot of the stuff we have planned/under development will be a surprise....;-)
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Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:31 pm

thank you very much Jamesh

we are looking forward to the new design surprises.

I wish a Happy New Year
Lucas

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV
The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.
The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:04 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV
The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.
The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.

£40 for the Waveshare Board I linked to above expensive :?:
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:23 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:04 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm

The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.
The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.

£40 for the Waveshare Board I linked to above expensive :?:
By itself, a bit (in my opinion), after all its just a PCB with traces and I/O ports.
When combined with a Pi CM module, and then compared to the identical capability Pi3b or the higher capability Pi3b+, then it's simply not worth the difference (considering a Pi3b+ costs about £28)

If course, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a hobbyist, not a company or professional.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Also, CM3 does not have all the useful expense of classic Raspberry and I need it. Example HDMI together with AV
The CM3 has every interface the Pi3B has...and more. If that's too much CPU, use the CM (aka CM1). If you're referring to cost...you get what you pay for. The CM and CM3 have on-board eMMC. If 4GB isn't enough, you can get the NEC version of the CM3 with 16GB. Of course, you're going to *pay* for it. About $65 last time I checked, plus--naturally--a carrier board.

It really isn't the cost of the CM. The CM3 is actually less expensive than the Pi3B. It's the cost of the carrier board that is going to hurt.
The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.
I have to disagree on two points. The first being that--as quoted--he said "CM3", not carrier board. Second, the CM series exposes *every* interface the S0C has. Granted an edge connector is a bit awkward to use in most contexts, but *all* the interfaces are there where you can get at them.

So...if he wants the access, he's going to have to pay the freight. If he doesn't like the cost of carrier boards, the whole point of the CM boards is that he can design his own carrier.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:46 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:23 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:04 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:47 pm

The carrier board is exactly what the poster you quoted is complaining about. A CM model Pi doesn't include any interfaces at all so a carrier board is required, which for many people is an extremely daunting task to build or simply too expensive to buy a premade one.

£40 for the Waveshare Board I linked to above expensive :?:
By itself, a bit (in my opinion), after all its just a PCB with traces and I/O ports.
When combined with a Pi CM module, and then compared to the identical capability Pi3b or the higher capability Pi3b+, then it's simply not worth the difference (considering a Pi3b+ costs about £28)

If course, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a hobbyist, not a company or professional.
As someone who owns a CMIO3 board, I'd say that $47 is a very good deal, indeed. The more so since (unlike the CMIO3) it includes a specific standard Pi-type GPIO block, an RTC. and 4 USB ports. The only things a B-series Pi has that the board doesn't is an Ethernet jack and a composite video/stereo audio jack, and those aren't on the CMIO3, either. By comparison, last I looked, the CMIO3 runs $120.

Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:02 am

Design Proposal

Please see a very simple design.
http://www.diktio-kapa.dos.gr/ftp/BPi/R ... %200.7.jpg

A Composition of a Computer Module with an empty Board RPi B3 + with plenty of space for Connections to CM Connector. Is a Board which will require material removal and not additions, which are difficult to design. Connections between the materials could only be done at the two levels of the Board, without the need for more

thank you very much
Lucas
Last edited by Lucas Raspberry on Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:38 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
Everything we have done so far has evolved the original design. I know the specs of the Pi4. It's not an evolution, it's a revolution and a HUGE step up.

Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
just look at the rockpi 4b.. They have eMMC, SD, wifi csi and dsi plus an m2 slot on your formfactor.. :lol:

for the rest here with all this cost calculation.. It's obvious that an 3b+ just with eMMC doesn't make sense.. but for a next iteration of whatever board you guys produce next it might be worth to think about.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:20 pm
When comparing the nearest in terms of product quality and support are Hardkernel: https://www.hardkernel.com/product/
not only hardkernel does a good job at the moment... FriendlyElec does good since years.. they've a interesting lineup of boards for different purposes. LibreComputer and folks at pine showed that they were also able to bring up new boards for different purposes.. From interesting multimedia boards to NAS boxes etc.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:43 am

chwe wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:38 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:42 am
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
Everything we have done so far has evolved the original design. I know the specs of the Pi4. It's not an evolution, it's a revolution and a HUGE step up.

Don't think it has EMMC though, but I will check. I doubt there is enough demand to take the hit in cost. It also seems likely there isn't enough board space to actually fit it. Hard enough cramming eveything is as things stand now.
just look at the rockpi 4b.. They have eMMC, SD, wifi csi and dsi plus an m2 slot on your formfactor.. :lol:
Which uses a completely different SOC, which means a completely different way of wiring everything up, perhaps less overlapping traces, maybe more layers, who knows.
Its certainly a lot more expensive than a Pi.
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chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:59 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:43 am
Which uses a completely different SOC, which means a completely different way of wiring everything up, perhaps less overlapping traces, maybe more layers, who knows.
Its certainly a lot more expensive than a Pi.
which is roughly the same size or bigger than the RPi SoC (don't have a Pi at hand to compare). Likely that they use a few more layers I don't check it.. :D

besides a few more layers why should price matters for the size? otherwise start with a nanopi neo4 which starts at 45$.. smaller and a bunch of stuff exposed (including eMMC and pci on a header ;) )

andrum99
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:02 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:11 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:18 pm
I wonder if it is possible to expose an EMMC compatible interface via an unpopulated header? Or perhaps this can already be done via the GPIO header. I would imagine the Pi 4 would have at least 2 SD/MMC interfaces so it shouldn't be that difficult to route one out to a header. Not sure about the cost implication of doing this though.
Last time I checked the SDIO interface could be exposed on the GPIO but you'd lose access to the onboard wifi.
I had a feeling that might be the case. I don't use the wifi interface anyway. Pi 4 should be a pretty major upgrade IO-wise. Not sure if they will continue running the ethernet via USB - it would keep the cost down I guess, and USB 3.x would not be much of a slowdown. The priority for USB is clearly to use a "host class" interface this time. The one in all Pi's so far was never designed to be used with multiple devices in host mode, hence why it took a lot of effort on the software side to get it working as well as it does.

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