Lucas Raspberry
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Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 am

It would be very important to have an EMMC Flash memory in Raspberry B classics. An EMMC Fash memory, which is in the very high-value Computer module 1, 3, Lite Raspberry. Why do we need to pay for the very accurate choice of Computer Module + Compute Module IO Board V3 if we want EMMC Flash? I would have paid 10 euros more for a Raspberry B or B + if it had EMMC Flash 4 or 8 GB, where I can mount the operating system. I would also like to have USb contacts internally (similar to the GPIO Pins) so I can add internal USB devices (eg camera usb). I would like pp to be pins. This does not add cost to the construction of Raspberry

PP27 USB VCC
PP28
PP35 VCC + 5V
PP36 USB D-
PP39
PP40
PP41 USB D +
PP42 USB D-
PP43 USB D +
PP44 USB D-
PP45 USB D +
PP46 USB D-
PP47 USB D +
PP48 GND
PP49 GND
PP50 GND
PP51 GND

Thank you very much

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:09 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 am
It would be very important to have an EMMC Flash memory in Raspberry B classics. An EMMC Fash memory, which is in the very high-value Computer module 1, 3, Lite Raspberry. Why do we need to pay for the very accurate choice of Computer Module + Compute Module IO Board V3 if we want EMMC Flash? I would have paid 10 euros more for a Raspberry B or B + if it had EMMC Flash 4 or 8 GB, where I can mount the operating system. I would also like to have USb contacts internally (similar to the GPIO Pins) so I can add internal USB devices (eg camera usb).
You do not appear to understand how the CM/CM3/CM3L fit in the Raspberry Pi picture. They are meant for industrial and embedded uses. If you really want have eMMC on the Pi board (e.g. CM or CM3), or you'd prefer more eMMC by putting it on the carrier board (CM3L), you can design a carrier board with whatever features you want, but it won't be a mainstream make-them-by-the-million Raspberry Pi.
I would like pp to be pins. This does not add cost to the construction of Raspberry
Supporting evidence nowhere in sight.

wh7qq
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:18 am

There are other small SoC based hacker boards that are a bit more expensive and power hungry than the RPi but do feature eMMC's. If it is really so important, they are out there and if you can't live without it, you can deal with the reduced level of support (this forum and all the ancillary hardware, hats etc. that only work for the RPi). In the mean time, a USB memory or an SSD with a USB adapter are your options if the uSD is such a problem for you. By the way, the eMMC memories are really $$$ relative to an RPi.

klricks
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 am
...... if it had EMMC Flash 4 or 8 GB, where I can mount the operating system....
It is more important to have the general use RPi which can't be 'bricked' by software or bad memory locations in flash.....
Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 am
......
I would also like to have USb contacts internally (similar to the GPIO Pins) so I can add internal USB devices (eg camera usb). I would like pp to be pins. This does not add cost to the construction of Raspberry
...
The PP Test pads are on the outer layer only. If through holes and pins were added they would have to go through all 6 layers of the PCB and displace what is already there. The entire board would need to be rerouted to accommodate the pins. Not a trivial task even for automated software. There are already many features of the SOC which are not implemented because there is no room for the tracks.
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated RPiOS Buster w/ Desktop OS.

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thagrol
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:03 pm

You're overlooking on major disadvantage of eMMC when compared to SD cards: all flash storage has a limited life. When an SD card fails you replace it and carry on. When eMMC fails you have to replace the entire Pi. More expense and more difficulty especially if the Pi is at a remote location or embeded in a project.

That said, at a guess it can be used by disabling the onboard wifi (if any), routing the secondary SD interface to the GPIO (definitely possible but I forget which ALT functions and which pins) and connecting your eMMC to that.

As for your USB request, it ain't gonna be simple. Traces would need rerouting which means board redesign. Can't see it happening for what is likely to be a minority requirement. Just unsolder the USB connectors yourself and fit headers. Or DIY adapters from the many USB A male breakouts available on, say, ebay.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:27 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 am
It would be very important to have an EMMC Flash memory in Raspberry B classics. An EMMC Fash memory, which is in the very high-value Computer module 1, 3, Lite Raspberry. Why do we need to pay for the very accurate choice of Computer Module + Compute Module IO Board V3 if we want EMMC Flash? I would have paid 10 euros more for a Raspberry B or B + if it had EMMC Flash 4 or 8 GB, where I can mount the operating system. I would also like to have USb contacts internally (similar to the GPIO Pins) so I can add internal USB devices (eg camera usb). I would like pp to be pins. This does not add cost to the construction of Raspberry

PP27 USB VCC
PP28
PP35 VCC + 5V
PP36 USB D-
PP39
PP40
PP41 USB D +
PP42 USB D-
PP43 USB D +
PP44 USB D-
PP45 USB D +
PP46 USB D-
PP47 USB D +
PP48 GND
PP49 GND
PP50 GND
PP51 GND

Thank you very much

Totally irrelevant post after EU stated in the 3A+ blog:

In some ways this is rather a poignant product for us. Back in March, we explained that the 3+ platform is the final iteration of the “classic” Raspberry Pi: whatever we do next will of necessity be less of an evolution, because it will need new core silicon, on a new process node, with new memory technology.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/new-pr ... 3-model-a/
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Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:25 pm

thank you very much

chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:20 pm
EMMC storage is very expensive compared to an SD-card, that is why a compute module has a strictly limited amount of it.
so expensive that even a 20$ SBC from other boardmakers can deliver 8GB of it.. :lol: [/sarcasm]
mahjongg wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:20 pm
Also simply relying on it would make the PI "brickable".
as the trend goes for all other SBCs simply put the eMMC on an module with a connector? Sell an extra eMMC to USB adapter for a few bucks and it's unbrickable.. ;) and the best of it.. you can sell different sizes of eMMC modules, depending on budget and needs..
mahjongg wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:20 pm
Finally there is no simple way to load initial code into the EMMC without a second card interface, and a supported card slot, and the mechanism used by the compute module for such a case, and for initial programming of the EMMC storage isn't really suitable for the general public.
there is.. see above

eMMC isn't that hard.. and a bunch of boardmakers are building boards with it.. All boardmakers in those days should provide it as a module and not per-soldered that doesn't make sense..
wh7qq wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:18 am
There are other small SoC based hacker boards that are a bit more expensive and power hungry than the RPi but do feature eMMC's. If it is really so important, they are out there and if you can't live without it, you can deal with the reduced level of support (this forum and all the ancillary hardware, hats etc. that only work for the RPi). In the mean time, a USB memory or an SSD with a USB adapter are your options if the uSD is such a problem for you. By the way, the eMMC memories are really $$$ relative to an RPi.
there are even cheaper ones which offer eMMC (also a fruity pi).. for the rest of your post.. no they're not more powerhungry yes most of rpi hats can also be driven by other boards.. it's just a question of finding the bits here and there to get in working.. USB sticks for rootfs is mostly a bad idea (random IO just sucks mostly) and an SSD attached to a pi is IMO a waste of money.
A reliable SD-card from a well known card maker will perform better than a usb-stick and you don't waste the only usb you have on the pi (shared with network). I've seen quality SD-Cards running on Pi's for more than 3 years 24/7 without any failures.. If you're concerned about your data make backups... always a good idea.
thagrol wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:03 pm
You're overlooking on major disadvantage of eMMC when compared to SD cards: all flash storage has a limited life. When an SD card fails you replace it and carry on. When eMMC fails you have to replace the entire Pi. More expense and more difficulty especially if the Pi is at a remote location or embeded in a project.
or it is on a module and can be replaced similar as a SD-card... :lol: lifetime can be enhanced by reducing write amplification... (e.g. log2ram or trash swap and use zram)..

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:31 pm

TL;DR.

Suffice to say, we are very unlikely to put EMMC on the standard boards, there just isn't the demand for it (and no, three people in here does not constitute demand). It's a cost that would put the price up for everyone (even if only a little), and be used by few. The SD card system works fine.
As an interesting side point, the first 200k or so Pi's ever built had the display connector on. And yet we had at that point no display to connect it to. Most of those boads never saw a display, and yet $0.25 (or whatever the cost of the connector is) was spent. That's $50k profit wasted. So even a tiny adition toboard cost can make a huge difference to the bottom line. And puting EMMC on every board is NOT a cheap exercise so the overall costs would be very large.

We've sold 23M Pi's so far, give us some credit we know what we are doing, and have a fairly good handle on the market place.
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thagrol
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm

chwe wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 pm
wh7qq wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:18 am
There are other small SoC based hacker boards that are a bit more expensive and power hungry than the RPi but do feature eMMC's. If it is really so important, they are out there and if you can't live without it, you can deal with the reduced level of support (this forum and all the ancillary hardware, hats etc. that only work for the RPi). In the mean time, a USB memory or an SSD with a USB adapter are your options if the uSD is such a problem for you. By the way, the eMMC memories are really $$$ relative to an RPi.
there are even cheaper ones which offer eMMC (also a fruity pi).. for the rest of your post.. no they're not more powerhungry yes most of rpi hats can also be driven by other boards.. it's just a question of finding the bits here and there to get in working.. USB sticks for rootfs is mostly a bad idea (random IO just sucks mostly) and an SSD attached to a pi is IMO a waste of money.
A reliable SD-card from a well known card maker will perform better than a usb-stick and you don't waste the only usb you have on the pi (shared with network). I've seen quality SD-Cards running on Pi's for more than 3 years 24/7 without any failures.. If you're concerned about your data make backups... always a good idea.
"furity pi" != Raspberry Pi, and the above appears to contradict your entire argument for eMMC.
thagrol wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:03 pm
You're overlooking on major disadvantage of eMMC when compared to SD cards: all flash storage has a limited life. When an SD card fails you replace it and carry on. When eMMC fails you have to replace the entire Pi. More expense and more difficulty especially if the Pi is at a remote location or embeded in a project.
or it is on a module and can be replaced similar as a SD-card... :lol:
At which point I fail to see any advantage over an SD card. You'd be moving from something pretty much universally supports to something supported only on a single piece of hardware.
lifetime can be enhanced by reducing write amplification... (e.g. log2ram or trash swap and use zram)..
Again, applies equally to an SD card based system.
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chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:28 am

I don't argue pro eMMC.. :D there are scenarios where it makes sense.. there are others where it doesn't make sense.. but arguing that eMMC makes a board 'brickable' just shows that those people don't follow what happens in SBC world besides RPis. More or less all recent designs in those days have eMMC as a module and they offer different sizes.
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm
chwe wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 pm
wh7qq wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:18 am
There are other small SoC based hacker boards that are a bit more expensive and power hungry than the RPi but do feature eMMC's. If it is really so important, they are out there and if you can't live without it, you can deal with the reduced level of support (this forum and all the ancillary hardware, hats etc. that only work for the RPi). In the mean time, a USB memory or an SSD with a USB adapter are your options if the uSD is such a problem for you. By the way, the eMMC memories are really $$$ relative to an RPi.
there are even cheaper ones which offer eMMC (also a fruity pi).. for the rest of your post.. no they're not more powerhungry yes most of rpi hats can also be driven by other boards.. it's just a question of finding the bits here and there to get in working.. USB sticks for rootfs is mostly a bad idea (random IO just sucks mostly) and an SSD attached to a pi is IMO a waste of money.
A reliable SD-card from a well known card maker will perform better than a usb-stick and you don't waste the only usb you have on the pi (shared with network). I've seen quality SD-Cards running on Pi's for more than 3 years 24/7 without any failures.. If you're concerned about your data make backups... always a good idea.
"furity pi" != Raspberry Pi, and the above appears to contradict your entire argument for eMMC.
why? cause I know boards which run reliable with SD-cards? even my el cheapo eMMC board runs mostly on SD-Card cause I do development and testing, SD-Card is just faster for development.. (okay, it has 3 sdio interfaces so it's no problem to have wifi, eMMC and SD-Card at once, and due to BROM code it's failsave even when I mess up eMMC on it - as most boards with more SDIO interfaces)..
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm
At which point I fail to see any advantage over an SD card. You'd be moving from something pretty much universally supports to something supported only on a single piece of hardware.
which is wrong too.. some of them are compatible even in between of different boardmakers.. things getting better here just open your eyes. ;)

For sure most of it can be achieved with SD-cards as well.. but once you set up your stuff.. it might be interesting to have everything on a fast eMMC module which performs still often better than sd-cards (even the A1/A2 rated ones). eMMC modules are often a bit more expensive than sd-cards but it might be worth. Counterfeit sd-cards are common never heard that someone fakes eMMC modules (just not enough business to make here.. :D ).
Except my NAS and some cheap IoT nodes (doesn't offer eMMC), all my 24/7 SBCs are run from eMMC.. during development and 'board bring up' they mostly run on SD-Cards cause I flash them quite often and I don't want to spend time setting up eMMC programming (e.g. different for all SoCs I work with).

but you can build an unbrickable SBC with eMMC.. The RPi is probably to limited in interfaces for such boards (e.g. not enough SDIO interfaces)...

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am

chwe wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:28 am
I don't argue pro eMMC.. :D there are scenarios where it makes sense.. there are others where it doesn't make sense.. but arguing that eMMC makes a board 'brickable' just shows that those people don't follow what happens in SBC world besides RPis. More or less all recent designs in those days have eMMC as a module and they offer different sizes.
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm
chwe wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 pm


there are even cheaper ones which offer eMMC (also a fruity pi).. for the rest of your post.. no they're not more powerhungry yes most of rpi hats can also be driven by other boards.. it's just a question of finding the bits here and there to get in working.. USB sticks for rootfs is mostly a bad idea (random IO just sucks mostly) and an SSD attached to a pi is IMO a waste of money.
A reliable SD-card from a well known card maker will perform better than a usb-stick and you don't waste the only usb you have on the pi (shared with network). I've seen quality SD-Cards running on Pi's for more than 3 years 24/7 without any failures.. If you're concerned about your data make backups... always a good idea.
"furity pi" != Raspberry Pi, and the above appears to contradict your entire argument for eMMC.
why? cause I know boards which run reliable with SD-cards? even my el cheapo eMMC board runs mostly on SD-Card cause I do development and testing, SD-Card is just faster for development.. (okay, it has 3 sdio interfaces so it's no problem to have wifi, eMMC and SD-Card at once, and due to BROM code it's failsave even when I mess up eMMC on it - as most boards with more SDIO interfaces)..
thagrol wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm
At which point I fail to see any advantage over an SD card. You'd be moving from something pretty much universally supports to something supported only on a single piece of hardware.
which is wrong too.. some of them are compatible even in between of different boardmakers.. things getting better here just open your eyes. ;)

For sure most of it can be achieved with SD-cards as well.. but once you set up your stuff.. it might be interesting to have everything on a fast eMMC module which performs still often better than sd-cards (even the A1/A2 rated ones). eMMC modules are often a bit more expensive than sd-cards but it might be worth. Counterfeit sd-cards are common never heard that someone fakes eMMC modules (just not enough business to make here.. :D ).
Except my NAS and some cheap IoT nodes (doesn't offer eMMC), all my 24/7 SBCs are run from eMMC.. during development and 'board bring up' they mostly run on SD-Cards cause I flash them quite often and I don't want to spend time setting up eMMC programming (e.g. different for all SoCs I work with).

but you can build an unbrickable SBC with eMMC.. The RPi is probably to limited in interfaces for such boards (e.g. not enough SDIO interfaces)...

At this point in time eMMC is not going to happen for the currently available Raspberry Pi SBC's. So as already stated further discussion is not needed.

Regards other SBC's having eMMC, good for them but do they sell millions ?
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chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:21 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
At this point in time eMMC is not going to happen for the currently available Raspberry Pi SBC's. So as already stated further discussion is not needed.
you must have some insider knowledge here.. normally people here are quite surprised what the 'new RPi' will have. :lol:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
Regards other SBC's having eMMC, good for them but do they sell millions ?
that is always a boring argument.. Do they have to sell million devices to have sometimes better ideas? I don't think so. Remember Compaq? they also sold millions.. :lol:

Sometimes it makes sense to look outside the natural habitats to catch up concepts and ideas. Does it finally make sense for the RPi? not my decision.. There are enough people in marketing and engineering in the RPi company to decide if it's worth. They've some experience with the CM3 and realized that it have some drawbacks but also some benefits. But there are good solutions out how to build unbreakable eMMC based SBC. Those boards are available and people even sell them. Maybe not millions but that's a non-argument.

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:29 am

chwe wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:21 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
At this point in time eMMC is not going to happen for the currently available Raspberry Pi SBC's. So as already stated further discussion is not needed.
you must have some insider knowledge here.. normally people here are quite surprised what the 'new RPi' will have. :lol:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
Regards other SBC's having eMMC, good for them but do they sell millions ?
that is always a boring argument.. Do they have to sell million devices to have sometimes better ideas? I don't think so. Remember Compaq? they also sold millions.. :lol:

Sometimes it makes sense to look outside the natural habitats to catch up concepts and ideas. Does it finally make sense for the RPi? not my decision.. There are enough people in marketing and engineering in the RPi company to decide if it's worth. They've some experience with the CM3 and realized that it have some drawbacks but also some benefits. But there are good solutions out how to build unbreakable eMMC based SBC. Those boards are available and people even sell them. Maybe not millions but that's a non-argument.
Did you miss my post above?
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:35 am

chwe wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:21 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
At this point in time eMMC is not going to happen for the currently available Raspberry Pi SBC's. So as already stated further discussion is not needed.
you must have some insider knowledge here.. normally people here are quite surprised what the 'new RPi' will have. :lol:

You missed the "currently available" I stated, do you want to borrow my glasses ?
:roll:
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chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:29 am
Did you miss my post above?
Indeed that one got missed... Sorry for that.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:31 pm
TL;DR.

Suffice to say, we are very unlikely to put EMMC on the standard boards, there just isn't the demand for it (and no, three people in here does not constitute demand). It's a cost that would put the price up for everyone (even if only a little), and be used by few. The SD card system works fine.
well if eMMC is on it people will use it.. :shock: but as said.. there are enough engineers and marketing people in the RPi company to decide what you think fits best in the RPi world. :) The only thing which doesn't count (together with the millions sold argument) is that eMMC makes a board brickable.. That's just wrong.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:31 pm
As an interesting side point, the first 200k or so Pi's ever built had the display connector on. And yet we had at that point no display to connect it to. Most of those boads never saw a display, and yet $0.25 (or whatever the cost of the connector is) was spent. That's $50k profit wasted. So even a tiny adition toboard cost can make a huge difference to the bottom line. And puting EMMC on every board is NOT a cheap exercise so the overall costs would be very large.
not sure if mine was under the first 200k (I assume cause when it arrived the prices on ebay for a pi were in the range of 100$ each.. It saws once a display (a few months back when I had a RPi display in my fingers). Problem here is the price. You've probably the sold units for the board and the display.. I would assume that even for recent Pi's sold Pis to sold displays will be somewhere 10:1 or 20:1. There are HDMI displays in the same price-range with similar resolution.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:35 am
You missed the "currently available" I stated, do you want to borrow my glasses ?
:roll:
completely fine with the one I have thanks.. :geek:
At least they would call it RPi 3++ :mrgreen: :lol:

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 pm

chwe I really don't understand your argument. On the one hand you appear to be pro eMMC but part of you argument contradicts this. You've later stated "I don't argue pro eMMC" so which is it?

You also claimed that there are SBCs available that use eMMC and cannot be bricked but have failed to supply any examples of "But there are good solutions out how to build unbreakable eMMC based SBC. Those boards are available and people even sell them"

Given what jamesh has said, this thread is something of a moot point. I'd just like to understand exactly what you're arguing for and to see examples of the SBCs you claim exist.

If you want eMMC on a Pi add it yourself, though you may have to loose the onboard wifi to do so, or use the CM or CM3.
Arguing with strangers on the internet since 1993.

Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm

as the Computer module Raspberry has emmc, I think the problems mentioned for emmc are no more than sd.

Many Pi such as Orange pi pc plus use emmc and have won many users. Perhaps in the future it would be good to design an extension to the GPIO with an EMMC boot for Raspberry B +. Whichever price it may be, it will be very useful in many applications. I believe it will be a unit that will be bought by many.

The know-how comes from the Raspberry Computer module. it may not take a lot of development costs

I wish a Happy New Year
Lucas

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:22 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm
as the Computer module Raspberry has emmc, I think the problems mentioned for emmc are no more than sd.

Many Pi such as Orange pi pc plus use emmc and have won many users. Perhaps in the future it would be good to design an extension to the GPIO with an EMMC boot for Raspberry B +. Whichever price it may be, it will be very useful in many applications. I believe it will be a unit that will be bought by many.

The know-how comes from the Raspberry Computer module. it may not take a lot of development costs

I wish a Happy New Year
Lucas

As has been stated ad-infinitum RPT are more than aware of what is and what is not feasible as well as cost effective. :shock:
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm
as the Computer module Raspberry has emmc, I think the problems mentioned for emmc are no more than sd.

Many Pi such as Orange pi pc plus use emmc and have won many users. Perhaps in the future it would be good to design an extension to the GPIO with an EMMC boot for Raspberry B +. Whichever price it may be, it will be very useful in many applications. I believe it will be a unit that will be bought by many.

The know-how comes from the Raspberry Computer module. it may not take a lot of development costs

I wish a Happy New Year
Lucas
Total development costs would be large - this is something most people do not realise. Even a minor change to the board may require changes to the production line, especially the testing stations - that is always expensive. A major change like this, even if not particularly difficult to design, would require a lot of work (and hence money) over and above the design/development. Lets say $300k as a ballpark. So assuming a few dollars profit per board (lets say 3 to match our dev costs - I do NOT know if that is accurate). We would need to sell an EXTRA 100k boards beore we broke even. Now take in to acount the development engineers have been working on this instead of the Pi4, for example, so the Pi4 is delayed by two or three months. That costs a LOT. So lets say we now need to sell 200k boards before we break even. And now the Pi4 has come out, people don't want the Pi3, any more....Of course, perhaps its posible to design in EMMC in the Pi4. BUT, once again,. we are adding costs to the board for every single user who buys it, not just those who want it.

Its is NOT simply how much it costs to develop the change. There are a LOT of variables.
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:18 pm

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm
as the Computer module Raspberry has emmc, I think the problems mentioned for emmc are no more than sd.

Many Pi such as Orange pi pc plus use emmc and have won many users. Perhaps in the future it would be good to design an extension to the GPIO with an EMMC boot for Raspberry B +. Whichever price it may be, it will be very useful in many applications. I believe it will be a unit that will be bought by many.
Have you ever worked with a Compute Module (CM or CM3)? They are intended for completely different uses that the main Pis. In an industrial/embedded environment it makes sense. In a classroom or a hobbyist setting, not nearly so much.
The know-how comes from the Raspberry Computer module. it may not take a lot of development costs
Supporting facts not in evidence.

chwe
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:17 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 pm
chwe I really don't understand your argument. On the one hand you appear to be pro eMMC but part of you argument contradicts this. You've later stated "I don't argue pro eMMC" so which is it?
There's no black and white here.. why must it always be the one or the other? Seems to be trendy in those days. For the schools and those parts I (partly) agree that SD-cards are a cheap and when bought quality ones reliable solution. If you ever did a 'board bring up' (bringing linux to a new SBC) you'll probably flash a few images until most of the stuff works, cause eMMC for different SoC differs (e.g. MT7623 has different needs in partition layout than a RK3399) development on SD-Card is (for me) a way easier than doing it directly on eMMC (most of those SoCs have some flash tools to burn stuff on eMMC even when you brick something, but those flashtools differ and I don't want to mess with all those different tools - the goal is always to provide an SD-Card image which then can be copied 'on a living system' to eMMC or whatever is possible with the SBC/SoC - cause the linux project I'm tied to doesn't support the RPi I'm not that familiar what would be possible with the Pi but different story). For all SBCs which run 24/7 with a bit of load I would always prefer eMMC, it's faster and once working one of the biggest issues we have with users is gone.. e.g. using random shitty SD-Cards which don't work reliable (counterfeit or just slow as hell so that an apt-get upgrade needs 5 times longer than on a reliable one - I bought some cheap SD-Cards just to get a feeling what can go wrong - pro tip, test them with F3 and if they've bad sectors, back to the seller. Buy A1 rated cards ).
thagrol wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 pm
You also claimed that there are SBCs available that use eMMC and cannot be bricked but have failed to supply any examples of "But there are good solutions out how to build unbreakable eMMC based SBC. Those boards are available and people even sell them"
normally the mods here don't like it if someone writes about other SBCs than the Pi.. but let's give it a try.. :lol:
Example for a unbrickable SBC with soldered eMMC: OrangePi PC+ (8gb eMMC for roughly 30$). The bootorder is always SD-Card, eMMC, SPI so even if you break stuff on eMMC, insert an SD-Card and it will boot from the card in case there's a SPL capable u-boot on it.
just a speed comparison using iozone (running a 4.14.78 kernel with a debian stretch, iozone -e -I -a -s 100M -r 4k -r 16k -r 512k -r 1024k -r 16384k -i 0 -i 1 -i 2):

16gb sandisk A1 rated SD-Card (so not the cheapest crap you can find, and the cards I always use for reliable systems):

Code: Select all

                                                              random    random     bkwd    record    stride                                    
              kB  reclen    write  rewrite    read    reread    read     write     read   rewrite      read   fwrite frewrite    fread  freread
          102400       4     3719     3895     7724     7695     7643     2351                                                          
          102400      16     5734     8347    15140    14910    14770     5466                                                          
          102400     512    14384    17060    22461    22424    22398    15872                                                          
          102400    1024    17652    16479    22923    22892    22667    17697                                                          
          102400   16384    17775    17058    23196    23194    23193    18323  
8gb eMMC:

Code: Select all

                                                              random    random     bkwd    record    stride                                    
              kB  reclen    write  rewrite    read    reread    read     write     read   rewrite      read   fwrite frewrite    fread  freread
          102400       4     6785     7433    16816    16721    14114     4923                                                          
          102400      16    10407    26416    40161    40196    35028     9794                                                          
          102400     512    12861    39032    68940    68963    68948    17984                                                          
          102400    1024    16797    40088    70652    79246    75305    22743                                                          
          102400   16384    22623    41067    80902    81621    78402    40529   
The SD-Card interface for H3 boards isn't known as a speedy one in sequential write speeds. But that's not really important for an OS.. more important are the small block sizes in random read/write for logs etc.. And that's a quality card.. The whole story would look completely different if we talk about garbage cards where an eMMC easily outperforms an SD-Card by a factor of 10..

SBCs with eMMC as a module:
[*]LaFrite (a SBC without SD-Card but 16MB SPI flash and mainlined hardware accelerated video-decoding - not of interest for me but a nice push in opensource video-decoding)
[*]LePotato (same vendor, a bit older, with an SD-Card interface as well)
[*]Renegade & Rock64 (a RK3328 based one providing USB3, a cool little board for USB3 based cheap nas boxes)
[*]several RK3399 based boards e.g. the RockPi with 'rpi formfactor' (except it's USB-C PD capable) but a lot more horse power on all purposes, NanoPi M4, Renagade Elite or RockPro64.

Obviously the RK3399 based ones are a bit more expensive that the RPi, they also deliver much more horsepower.. The libre boards are in the same price-range than a RPi and except LaFrite, they all provide an SD-Card interface as well.
thagrol wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 pm
If you want eMMC on a Pi add it yourself, though you may have to loose the onboard wifi to do so, or use the CM or CM3.
don't have a need for it.. :lol: there are (for me) more interesting boards when it comes to eMMC.
jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:16 pm
Lets say $300k as a ballpark. So assuming a few dollars profit per board (lets say 3 to match our dev costs - I do NOT know if that is accurate). We would need to sell an EXTRA 100k boards beore we broke even. Now take in to acount the development engineers have been working on this instead of the Pi4, for example, so the Pi4 is delayed by two or three months. That costs a LOT. So lets say we now need to sell 200k boards before we break even. And now the Pi4 has come out, people don't want the Pi3, any more....Of course, perhaps its posible to design in EMMC in the Pi4. BUT, once again,. we are adding costs to the board for every single user who buys it, not just those who want it.
well the whole calculation looks a bit weird to me.. But well I never designed a SBC so now idea what it would cost.. :lol: Just bring up a RPi with eMMC doesn't make sense indeed.. But you might consider it when you decide the outdated Videocore4 SoC where you've to deal with so many limitation that you mostly maxed it out with the RPi 3b+... and then adding another 0.25$ for an eMMC connector additionally to the display connector probably make sense.. :D You don't need to solder eMMC on the board which is kind of outdated in those days.. but provide an connector and sell some extra eMMC modules might be interesting.. who knows..
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 am
At this point in time eMMC is not going to happen for the currently available Raspberry Pi SBC's. So as already stated further discussion is not needed.

Regards other SBC's having eMMC, good for them but do they sell millions ?
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:35 am
You missed the "currently available" I stated, do you want to borrow my glasses ?
:roll:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:22 pm
As has been stated ad-infinitum RPT are more than aware of what is and what is not feasible as well as cost effective. :shock:
once you've something more to tell than just different sorts of "please be silent" it might be worth to post something here.. but the last messages from you might just help me to miss the interesting posts.. :roll:

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thagrol
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:40 am

chwe wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:17 pm
thagrol wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 pm
If you want eMMC on a Pi add it yourself, though you may have to loose the onboard wifi to do so, or use the CM or CM3.
don't have a need for it.. :lol: there are (for me) more interesting boards when it comes to eMMC.
So why are you arguing so strongly for it? Playing Devil's advocate I guess.

<jamesh quote skipped for brevity>
well the whole calculation looks a bit weird to me.. But well I never designed a SBC so now idea what it would cost.. :lol: Just bring up a RPi with eMMC doesn't make sense indeed.. But you might consider it when you decide the outdated Videocore4 SoC where you've to deal with so many limitation that you mostly maxed it out with the RPi 3b+... and then adding another 0.25$ for an eMMC connector additionally to the display connector probably make sense.. :D You don't need to solder eMMC on the board which is kind of outdated in those days.. but provide an connector and sell some extra eMMC modules might be interesting.. who knows..
jamesh's calculations look fine to me even though they're back of an envelope.

What you seem to be failing to understand is that the cost of making any change is much higher than just the cost of the new component. In many cases that's actually the least of it.

Lets say the cost of the connector for an eMMC modules is $0.25. What about the cost of the following (in no particular order):
  • Engineer's time to redesign the board to make room for the connector and module.
  • Engineer's time to reroute all circuit paths for the above
  • Engineer's to test the above designs
  • FCC and other regulatory approval
  • Alpha and beta testing before you can even think of going further
  • Time for someone decide on connector specs
  • Time for sourcing new parts
  • Time for someone to design the changes to the production line
  • Lost production time while changes are made
  • Changes to test/QA procedures and hardware.
  • Staff retraining for the above
  • Potential increase in failure rate - more complex board so more fail production testing.
  • Hard/software creation so that the eMMC can be programmed easily and actually used.
  • Budget for rework of problems you didn't find in test (remember the issue with the POE hat?)
  • ...
You need to sell a lot of units to recover those costs, and as James has said there simply isn't the demand for it in the Pi's target audience.

This stuff is not specific to SBCs. Any mass produced product is going to have to ovecome a similar set of hurdles when something changes.

Obligatory car analogy: Imagine going to Ford and asking them to change thier wheel hubs so that you could fit your favourite 5 bolt alloys instead of their usual 4 bolt range. All they have toi do is drill an extra hole right?
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Lucas Raspberry
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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am

What you seem to be failing to understand is that the cost of making any change is much higher than just the cost of the new component. In many cases that's actually the least of it.

Lets say the cost of the connector for an eMMC modules is $0.25. What about the cost of the following (in no particular order):
Engineer's time to redesign the board to make room for the connector and module.
Engineer's time to reroute all circuit paths for the above
Engineer's to test the above designs
FCC and other regulatory approval
Alpha and beta testing before you can even think of going further
Time for someone decide on connector specs
Time for sourcing new parts
Time for someone to design the changes to the production line
Lost production time while changes are made
Changes to test/QA procedures and hardware.
Staff retraining for the above
Potential increase in failure rate - more complex board so more fail production testing.
Hard/software creation so that the eMMC can be programmed easily and actually used.
Budget for rework of problems you didn't find in test (remember the issue with the POE hat?)
...
You need to sell a lot of units to recover those costs, and as James has said there simply isn't the demand for it in the Pi's target audience.

This stuff is not specific to SBCs. Any mass produced product is going to have to ovecome a similar set of hurdles when something changes.

Obligatory car analogy: Imagine going to Ford and asking them to change thier wheel hubs so that you could fit your favourite 5 bolt alloys instead of their usual 4 bolt range. All they have toi do is drill an extra hole right?


xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement

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Re: Rpi with onboard EMMC storage

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:21 am

Lucas Raspberry wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 am
xxx Of all the above, I understand that the new versions of Raspberry will have no progress. It will be the same thing in a different size, as Raspberry Pi 3 Model A + is the same as Raspberry Pi 3 Model B +. We have no evolution and improvement
That's a bad comparison. The Pi3A+ is an evolution of the Model A+ (which is, itself, an evolution of the Model A). The only unique features it shares with the Pi3B+ are the SoC and WiFi.

The series you're looking--with changes over time--is: Model B, B+, Pi2B, Pi3B, Pi3B+. Each successive member of the series in more capable and usually has more features than it's predecessor. There will be progress with whatever comes next. May as well call it a "Pi4B" (though, in the expectation that it will include WiFi, I'd prefer it be called a "Pi4BW", leaving room for a non-wireless version that could be referred to as a "Pi4B").

Outside of the RPF and RPT, no one knows what evolutionary changes and improvements will be incorporated, though one can guess at a couple of things. Specifically, a 28nm node and an improved VC. The shift to a 28nm node may give us a higher clock speed, lower power requirement, or some mix of the two. What is unlikely is either fixed on board or a slot for removable eMMC. Note that I say "unlikely", not "impossible". I will say that I would be quite startled to see eMMC included on any Pi in the foreseeable future other than a CM.

If you really want eMMC on a Pi, go for the CM3. If you want it removable (or more than 4GB), go for the CM3L. In either case, you'll want to design a carrier board that supplies any other interfaces you're interested in.

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