Nathidraws
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:22 pm

Ok so anyways :shock: :lol:

Back to the original question?

Although there have been a lot of good points about why Raspberry Pi used ARM instead of x86.

I really do thank you all for your inputs. :mrgreen:
A curious folk.

timrowledge
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:27 pm

thagrol wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:17 pm

Given that ARM development started in 1983, it find it unlikely that anyone in the RPF was invloved with that.
Me. Involved in ARM stuff from near the beginning, Pi stuff from early on. Always Smalltalk.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

Nathidraws
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:01 am

I compiled all the points that were made in this forum post as of 6th December 2018:
Excluded points made by others if already pointed out beforehand
Btw this was pretty fun to make. :)
jamesh wrote:
  1. Very cheap
  2. Extremely common
  3. Used in mobile phones
  4. x86 processor would have put the pi at four times it's price
    drgeoff wrote:
  5. x86 couldn't be powered by a low cost power supply
  6. Rare to find x86 as small and vaguely similar
  7. ARM is much more suited, in part because it doesn’t run Windows.
    echmain wrote:
  8. Freedom from the Meltdown and Spectre attacks
    HawaiianPi wrote:
  9. Power efficient
  10. Could be run from phone chargers (not recommended with Pi3 series)
  11. Used in lots of embedded applications as well (your router, smart TV, etc.)
  12. Running Linux means there is lots of free software
  13. More recent Raspbian Stretch Desktops include the Recommended Software package installer, which is arguably easier than Windows

  14. How to install software on a Pi:
    - Run "sudo apt install <package>"
    - Run the program you installed
  15. Windows has the extra step of re-booting; very few things require that in Linux and you don't have to stop doing anything else while you updating
  16. GPU built in
    Heater wrote:
  17. Installing Raspbian is less of a nuisance
  18. Variety of software is large

    DavidS wrote:
  19. ARM is RISC, so no microcode layer, making it possible to keep the design simpler for the same performance.
  20. RISC OS is ARM only, and the first OS for the ARM (still around)
  21. ARM assembly language is simple to learn and a joy to program in (unlike x86 assembly)
  22. ARM has been a 32-Bit CPU since its introduction in 1985 (no GDT/LDT/TSS on ARM)
  23. One of the best desktop computer CPU archetectures around
  24. ARM will not run x86 Windows OS's
After the second page, I felt as if it went off topic, so I stopped looking for points after that page.
Then again, I think this is definitely a good amount of information to back up ARM.
Thank you all for your inputs. I greatly appreciate every one of you. :D
A curious folk.

Heater
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:25 am

@DavidS,
That would be like saying that the x86 port of ReactOS did not exist in 2002 ... so it exists (just not really of any use yet).
Exactly. To all intents and purposes it does not exist yet.

@mfa298
If you have previously done the Windows 10 Upgrade then you can install direct to Windows 10 (no need to start with Win7 and upgrade). Obviously if you've yet to do the upgrade then you'll need to do the upgrade process once (but only once).
Also, exactly.

But neither of those were the situation I was describing.

The machine in question was being tossed out by the office that had used it. It came with no disk drives. Because companies and people can be fussy about what data leaks out in their discarded media. It of course had the blue sticker on the side displaying it's Win 7 license key.

So the problem at hand was how to salvage that machine by:

1) Installing Win 7 using that product key.

2) Upgrading to Win 10.

I guess you have never tackled that particular problem.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:59 am

hippy,
If Raspbian required a licence key to upgrade you would have had to install the earlier version first to install the later. Your are conflating licensing issues with ease of installation.
If this, if that. What are you talking about? Can we stick to reality?

Licensing issues are a fundamental part of the problem here.

If Raspbian required a licence key I would not be using it and I suspect no one else either.
There are plenty of ways to install and activate Windows 10 without having to install an earlier version first.
I'm glad to here it.

I did ask you already but I can try again. Given a machine with a fully paid up Win 7 license and blank disk drives, how do you get Win 10 installed on it?

I am no Windows guys so despite my extensive googling around I did not find a solution better than the one I described.
Maybe you have some particular reasons for doing it the way you did, couldn't do it how others would, couldn't just plug an RJ45 in and get a network connection that way and avoid having to find drivers, but most people don't encounter the difficulties you faced.
See above. A machine with no disks and no OS is not going to be talking over that RJ45. Except for the BIOS trying to boot from the net at start up if that is possible and one configures it.

Please do tell how you would have proceeded from there? If there is an easier way I would like to know.
Similarly if you had wanted to keep what you had under Jessie of Wheezy without copying stuff off and back later, you would have had to upgrade to Stretch rather than making a fresh install of Stretch.
Now you have changed the subject to that of ones own files and backups etc. God help those that live without backups.
You are not comparing like to like.
That is true.

One is very secret, expensive and complex to install.

The other is very open, free (not just in money terms) and easy to install.

I guess that was my point.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:07 am

Why do people repeatedly claim nonsense about Windows needing to reboot after you install a program.
The last time I had to do that was waaaay back with Windows XP, a decade ago.
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DavidS
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:27 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:07 am
Why do people repeatedly claim nonsense about Windows needing to reboot after you install a program.
The last time I had to do that was waaaay back with Windows XP, a decade ago.
You have not installed any primary device drivers lately have you? if you attempt to keep using Windows 10 after installing a video driver for a new graphics card, and uninstalling the driver for the onboard, you will need to reboot or you will crash withing 100 hours. There are ways to do this in Linux and most other OS's without rebooting, and remaining stable.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

Will5455
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:39 am
Nathidraws wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:45 am
pootle wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:36 am


Rofl, what a complicated installation process - why isn't it just 1 step like on linux?
I know I know :?
While the difference on how software installs are handled is a good point, that is a consequence of using Linux, and is actually independent of the choice of an ARM processor as opposed to an x86 design.

What ARM really brings to the table is low cost and low power requirements. Since there are a lot more ARM designs that have at least a GPU built in, that is also a cost, board space, and power savings advantage.

Really, when you get right down to it an ARM design is going to be cheaper than an x86 design. If your target market is kids--where their parents are buying something the kid may accidentally destroy--keeping to end device really cheap is a very big advantage. As it happens, being able to sell the boards at such a low cost also opens up a great many uses that wouldn't happen with a more expensive board (and didn't; prior to the launch of the first Pi, the most popular SBC in the DIY/maker community was the Beaglebone at $90). The low cost also made it feasible for people with projects that need multiple Pis to make that happen. My first "project" involved 6 Pis.
but most intel processors have onboard gpu as well?
I do strange things and am sometimes the techhead stereotype.
deal with it!

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DavidS
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:58 am

I personally feel we have gotten enough off topic. So all the way back on point.
Nathidraws wrote: I compiled all the points that were made in this forum post as of 6th December 2018:
Excluded points made by others if already pointed out beforehand
Btw this was pretty fun to make.
Looks like a prety complete list of the advantages mentioned in this thread.
After the second page, I felt as if it went off topic, so I stopped looking for points after that page.
Then again, I think this is definitely a good amount of information to back up ARM.
Thank you all for your inputs. I greatly appreciate every one of you.
You are quite welcome.

There are a number of advantages to using the ARM in any implementation for a desktop computer, workstasion, or server, hence why you see so many.

There are a lot of other advantages to using the ARM that are not mentioned in this thread, though I do not think anyone could put a complete list of advantages without spending a good deal of time researching just that one topic.

Glad we were able to help to some extent anyway.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

hippy
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:06 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:59 am
I did ask you already but I can try again. Given a machine with a fully paid up Win 7 license and blank disk drives, how do you get Win 10 installed on it?
You hit Google. Or you go straight to the Microsoft Windows 10 Download page and choose the ISO installer download. If you can't figure out how to get that you hit Google again. You download it, burn it to DVD, you boot it and follow the instructions.

You don't need to use the target machine to download; you can use whatever you used to download the Windows 7 drivers. You could probably even use a Raspberry Pi.

You can use your target machine if you want to without having to install Windows. You can install Linux on that or boot a Live Linux CD and download the ISO image with that.

I'm struggling to believe you couldn't have figured this out with your experience, knowledge and background; but now you know.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:06 am

This post has gone way off topic.

Bottom line is EU worked for old Broadcom in Cambridge at the point in history he decided to make a SBC so children would experience the joys of coding which had been lost in the 1990's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcom_Corporation

Therefore it just so happened that old Broadcom had a division devoted to VideoCore which had added an ARM CPU to create a family of SoC's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore

Old Broadcom were supportive and the rest is history.

The advantage of using BCM2835 was the wealth of talent and support from EUs colleagues (many who now work at PiTowers).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Upton


Bottom line it was just easier to work with old Broadcom VC4 / ARM CPU than having to learn x86............

.....great people in a organisation is a huge advantage !
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Heater
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:12 am

hippy,
You hit Google.
Be serious. Do you really think that I, a user of google since it was just a PC under the desk of Larry Page in Stanford university in 1998, did not think of that?
...go straight to the Microsoft Windows 10 Download page and choose the ISO installer download...
You mean this one: https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/softwar ... /windows10

Which says:
To get started, you will first need to have a licence to install Windows 10.

Which obviously I did not have at the time.
You don't need to use the target machine to download;
Very true. I used my regular Linux PC to download the Win 7 image to get the machine started. And then the drivers Win 7 needed to get on the net and commence the upgrade to Win 10.
I'm struggling to believe you couldn't have figured this out with your experience, knowledge and background; but now you know.
Actually I don't know. If you can write a simple page describing how to go from blank PC and a Win 7 licence key to an up and running Win 10 installation in any way simpler than I did it I would really like to read it.

Have you actually ever done this?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

grininmonkey
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:59 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:12 am
You mean this one: https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/softwar ... /windows10

Which says:
To get started, you will first need to have a licence to install Windows 10.
It says that, but you can install it... it will have a warning and if you do not set a valid product key within 30 days.... it will lock you out. I used that ISO and once installed and setup etc.... I bought a key online via the option from MS via following the links from the Product Key screen.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:04 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:35 am
mperf3kt,
Why do people repeatedly claim nonsense about Windows needing to reboot after you install a program.
The last time I had to do that was waaaay back with Windows XP, a decade ago.
I don't recall that anyone has mentioned that particular issue here yet.

I suspect you are right though. A lot of software can be installed without a reboot.

Makes no difference, Win 10 will download and install updates every other day and ask you to wait for it to reboot itself !
I know this tangent is off topic, but just to substantiate some claims, my Windows 10 laptop has not rebooted itself nor installed updates, since March. I do not experience these issues other users experience, because I customised my install and forcibly reject updates and rebooting without consent.

As to new device drivers, no I have not had to in a long time. Most people don't need to, Windows has generic drivers for just about everything (part of why it's so huge)
The only time you need to install specialist drivers is if you want the special features the manufacturer's drivers come with, which may need a reboot, but let's face it - nobody buys a new GPU every day. It's something you'll do once every 5 years or more, if that. Likely, you'll buy a whole new computer instead.
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:13 am

Will5455 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am
but most intel processors have onboard gpu as well?
No. Some do, but not "most". The ones with built in GPUs are intended for cheap systems. (Granted, that's the space the Pi is in, but Intel systems aren't *that* cheap.)

Nathidraws
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:15 am

DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:58 am
Nathidraws wrote: Thank you all for your inputs. I greatly appreciate every one of you.
You are quite welcome.

There are a lot of other advantages to using the ARM that are not mentioned in this thread, though I do not think anyone could put a complete list of advantages without spending a good deal of time researching just that one topic.

Glad we were able to help to some extent anyway.
:D

Also yeah, I agree.
A curious folk.

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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:06 am
This post has gone way off topic.

Bottom line is
  1. EU (Eben Upton) worked for old Broadcom in Cambridge at the point in history
    -
  2. he decided to make a SBC so children would experience the joys of coding which had been lost in the 1990's
    -
  3. old Broadcom had a division devoted to VideoCore which had added an ARM CPU to create a family of SoC's
    -
  4. Old Broadcom were supportive and the rest is history
    -
  5. The advantage of using BCM2835 was the wealth of talent and support from EUs colleagues (many who now work at PiTowers)
    -
  6. It was just easier to work with old Broadcom VC4 / ARM CPU than having to learn x86
    -
  7. great people in a organisation is a huge advantage !
:) Thank you for the information

Also I was gonna ask what everyone meant when they were saying EU, but then I saw a wiki page in the post you made that's URL said Eben Upton.
:P
A curious folk.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:23 am

Nathidraws wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:06 am
This post has gone way off topic.

Bottom line is
  1. EU (Eben Upton) worked for old Broadcom in Cambridge at the point in history
    -
  2. he decided to make a SBC so children would experience the joys of coding which had been lost in the 1990's
    -
  3. old Broadcom had a division devoted to VideoCore which had added an ARM CPU to create a family of SoC's
    -
  4. Old Broadcom were supportive and the rest is history
    -
  5. The advantage of using BCM2835 was the wealth of talent and support from EUs colleagues (many who now work at PiTowers)
    -
  6. It was just easier to work with old Broadcom VC4 / ARM CPU than having to learn x86
    -
  7. great people in a organisation is a huge advantage !
:) Thank you for the information

Also I was gonna ask what everyone meant when they were saying EU, but then I saw a wiki page in the post you made that's URL said Eben Upton.
:P

No problem, sometimes the simplest answers are better than hyperbole :D
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:47 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:13 am
Will5455 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am
but most intel processors have onboard gpu as well?
No. Some do, but not "most". The ones with built in GPUs are intended for cheap systems. (Granted, that's the space the Pi is in, but Intel systems aren't *that* cheap.)
I think most probably do now, away from servers. They are also used for number crunching.
The Cores, The Pentiums, The Celerons, The Atoms all have them.
Xeon* and Itanium don't

(I believe the Xeon E do have one)
Some of these CPU's are not cheap, unless <$500 / 14 Pi3 is cheap for a CPU.

Even the AMD built on chip 'discrete GPU' versions still have the on board one

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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:56 am

Windows 10 doesn't update itself very often, it's not as often as all the update on Android for everything (only the main OS never really update unless you are lucky ;-))

They have weekly patch days that updates are put out, you can choose the way this is done or if to delay or ignore (not on the Home version though, they take charge to look after you, most are security updates) you don't often need to reboot, it just plods along. I often need to reboot Raspbian to have it's updates take effect.

You can get a free license if you run in the Preview Program, whole OS update do happen, very regularly on Fast Ring, but not so often on Slow Ring.
But that's why it's free, you giving your usage data away and may have bugs (there is an even slower ring iirc).

It not quite like the old days of the old Win7 and before days. Win10 is a nice product to use.

You do not need a license to install, you can skip that part (last time I tried they didn't make it very obvious) you also don't need a Microsoft Account, well unless you are in the preview program.

Why bother though, if you are happy with what you are using now.
Also it's just an operating system, nothing life threatening, so have fun, use if you want or not.

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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:12 am

Please stay on topic, discussing the merits/cons of windows is way off topic, and I have deleted a few "low hanging fruits", I don't want to trim off whole branches. :x

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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:04 pm

...
a little More on topic ;)
but still off on a bit of a tangent
could the same be done with x86
some answers WRT: benefits from using ARM?
could be lurking in the that topic :idea:
..
ohh O.O
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=129251#p921927
Is this a continuation of the now locked "pi vs. tablet" by gsts which became "x86 vs ARM" debate in the general discussions area?
..
pi vs. tablet %%aka%% x86 vs ARM

so it looks like it could be informative and on topic :D


... :| if the software / licensing was irrelevant
then
this :arrow: developer.arm.com/open-source
link would nay exist.

hippy
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:24 pm

  • x86 couldn't be powered by a low cost power supply
  • ARM is much more suited, in part because it doesn’t run Windows.
  • ARM will not run x86 Windows OS's
The first isn't true: The HUDL2 tablet and other devices use an X86 and run from batteries or low cost power supply.

The second is subjective at best.

The third isn't necessarily a benefit.

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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:40 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:24 pm
  • x86 couldn't be powered by a low cost power supply
  • ARM is much more suited, in part because it doesn’t run Windows.
  • ARM will not run x86 Windows OS's
The first isn't true: The HUDL2 tablet and other devices use an X86 and run from batteries or low cost power supply.

The second is subjective at best.

The third isn't necessarily a benefit.

This whole thread is subjective and there is no right or wrong answer......
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hippy
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Re: Are there any benefits from the Raspberry Pi using ARM?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:12 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:12 am
To get started, you will first need to have a licence to install Windows 10.
Just to round this off; since November 2017 Windows 10 activation on a virgin install has accepted Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 keys. That was still working earlier this year.

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