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DarkPlatinum
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Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:01 pm

Just looked on Amazon and it says I can buy a 128GB class 10 A1 sandisk ultra for £22! It makes the pre formatted 32 GB NOOBS card look like a rip off! When did SD cards get so cheap?!
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Joel_Mckay
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:10 pm

If it is legitimate and can pass an F3 scan, than it is probably using MLC flash.
MLC flash has a fraction of the sector write count limit before failure, and should not be considered for a system that often modifies contents of the drive.

Regular SLC has over 10x the lifespan on average, and you can read more here:
https://forums.sandisk.com/t5/Mobile-me ... d-p/332885

"Cheap" and "Inexpensive" often have two distinct meanings.
You probably want to stick with SLC cards for your pi... ;-)

Cheers,
~J~

jahboater
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:16 pm

Joel_Mckay wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:10 pm
"Cheap" and "Inexpensive" often have two distinct meanings.
You probably want to stick with SLC cards for your pi... ;-)
Please could you suggest some high performance, reasonably priced, and easily available, SLC cards?
By high performance I mean A1 class or better (1500 IOPS+).

My SD cards seem to last forever (years) despite only taking a few obvious steps to reduce system writes.
In fact I don't believe I have ever "worn" one out and I have been using Pi's since day one.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:58 pm

Twenty two pounds?
That's not right, you can buy 512 gigabyte cards for $0 from China
https://i.imgur.com/nEeu6N2.png

Don't expect them to last long or even be 512GB
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:40 am

Please could you suggest some high performance, reasonably priced, and easily available, SLC cards?
By high performance I mean A1 class or better (1500 IOPS+).
SLC and A1? I don't think that exists.
What is the biggest SLC card, 8GB?
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/pro ... l-sd-cards

A1 means it has a better controller optimized for lots of small writes?
If you don't do lots of writes then A1 is not important.
Raspbian does do many more writes compared to PiCore which is optimized as a read only OS.
Lots of reliability of the SD card depends on the OS.

For 128GB, use external USB SSD drive?
For more reliability boot from small SLC SD card, then load rest from SSD?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

jahboater
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:14 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:40 am
A1 means it has a better controller optimized for lots of small writes?
If you don't do lots of writes then A1 is not important.
More importantly, lots of random reads:
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overv ... index.html
SD cards are/were designed for writing large amounts of data in devices such as cameras.

The new A1/A2 class is more appropriate for use as a computer system disk (where 4k random read performance is king).

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bensimmo
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:38 am

Prices have been steadily dropping and Amazon prices pop up and down.
The newer A2 cards are making the A1 prices drop.

But it is just a general drop overall, the comparable USB drives have dropped just as much.
SSD are also dropping back to what they used to be four or so years ago,but that's because new SSD tech has come along and they are premium prices.

It's a royal pain when you only need an 8/16GB pi card but the 32 is not much more ;-)

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mooblie
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:28 am

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:38 am
It's a royal pain when you only need an 8/16GB pi card but the 32 is not much more ;-)
What we all need here is a legitimate source of high quality, old stock, 8GB cards, that some distributor we can trust has left over, and wants to offload cheaply - but they're actually high quality cards of a previous era.

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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:48 am

mooblie wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:28 am
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:38 am
It's a royal pain when you only need an 8/16GB pi card but the 32 is not much more ;-)
What we all need here is a legitimate source of high quality, old stock, 8GB cards, that some distributor we can trust has left over, and wants to offload cheaply - but they're actually high quality cards of a previous era.
8GB in this age is almost non existent. 16 gb is cheap. See: https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... ds=sd+card

Anyone need a 400 gb SD? only £100 :)
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jahboater
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am

Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)

£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card

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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:53 am

jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)

£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
People with 8GB sd cards are trying to save the environment :lol:
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mikerr
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:15 pm

jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)

£5.99 here for a 16GB sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
Amazon still sell 8GB cards for £3.18 ...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Verbatim-44081 ... 00CBAUI40/
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:27 pm

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:53 am
jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)

£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
People with 8GB sd cards are trying to save the environment :lol:
How so? If they have 2 8GB cards to make the equivalent of one 16GB card, they have twice the plastic to dispose of when they die (which will be sooner than the 16GB version)
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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:30 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:27 pm
DarkPlatinum wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:53 am
jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)

£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
People with 8GB sd cards are trying to save the environment :lol:
How so? If they have 2 8GB cards to make the equivalent of one 16GB card, they have twice the plastic to dispose of when they die (which will be sooner than the 16GB version)
It was a joke :)
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HawaiianPi
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm

jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)
And there is more room for wear leveling (so the larger card should last longer).

jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
Even cheaper on this side of the pond ($6.59 US = £5.08).

The 32GB SanDisk Ultra A1 has dipped under $10 a few times this year (currently $9.59 on Amazon USA).

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:48 am
Anyone need a 400 gb SD? only £100 :)
At sizes larger than 128GB you'd be better off getting an SSD and USB adapter. It will cost less, perform better, and last longer.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

jahboater
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:56 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm
jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)
And there is more room for wear leveling (so the larger card should last longer).
Yes, also the larger sizes sometimes have sightly faster advertised speed.
The 128GB sandisk A2 is 90MB/sec write speed, the 64GB version is 60GB/sec write speed.
Perhaps because there are multiple chips which may be accessed in parallel.

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bensimmo
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm
jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
Given that 8GB cards either cost more, or are hard to get, I cant see the down side of getting a 16GB or 32GB card.
You don't have to use the space :)
And there is more room for wear leveling (so the larger card should last longer).

jahboater wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am
£5.99 here for a sandisk A1.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-microS ... GB+sd+card
Even cheaper on this side of the pond ($6.59 US = £5.08).

The 32GB SanDisk Ultra A1 has dipped under $10 a few times this year (currently $9.59 on Amazon USA).
...
Ours includes the 20% VAT
Does the USA one include Tax iirc you tend not to until checkout.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:52 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 am
Ours includes the 20% VAT
Does the USA one include Tax iirc you tend not to until checkout.
Almost certainly not. US prices are normally quoted without sales tax. This is a good thing, as the rates vary (wildly) across different sates, and some don't levy sales tax at all. There has been controversy for years over whether on-line retailers can or should charge sales tax when shipping across state lines. In California (where I live), if you aren't charged sales tax, then you are supposed to report the equivalent on your state income tax forms. This is--generally--more honored in the breach than actually observed.

All of that aside... Flash prices are definitely down. I recently upgraded the SSD in my wife's PC from 120GB to a 500GB Samsung 860 drive for just under $90. The other day, I got an ad for a 250GB HP SSD for $35 and today I got one that listed buying 2 120GB HP SSDs for $45.

I will have to see what Newegg is selling 16GB A1 SanDisk cards for... Probably won't be able to budget for them until next hear, though.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:17 am

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 am
Ours includes the 20% VAT
Does the USA one include Tax iirc you tend not to until checkout.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:52 pm
Almost certainly not. US prices are normally quoted without sales tax. This is a good thing, as the rates vary (wildly) across different sates, and some don't levy sales tax at all.
Yup, taxed at purchase time, but no sales tax for me here in Oregon. So I get the Amazon price, including free 2 day Prime shipping (okay, we do pay for Prime, but we get a lot more than free shipping).
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
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Ger_Pa
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:16 pm

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:01 pm
Just looked on Amazon and it says I can buy a 128GB class 10 A1 sandisk ultra for £22! It makes the pre formatted 32 GB NOOBS card look like a rip off! When did SD cards get so cheap?!
So you are comparing Sandisk a giant company that's owned by Western Digital an even bigger company that makes their own hardware to a much smaller company in the UK, that outsoruces the mfg of the sd card?
Of course they can put SD cards at a cheaper price than element14, there is no surprise there....
An SD Card 128 gb will range from 24 euros to 50 euros.

I got one of those 128 gb sandkisk from an official retailers and while not a bad sd card the specs are bit lower than other sd card that are bit more expensive. It never reachs the "UP TO 100 MB/s" unlike other that are bit more expensive, but even if doesn't reach the 100 MB/s it's very fast when it comes to run raspbian.

Tech just get cheaper as the time goes by, that Sandisk, was around 80 euros last years... Even some of the "uber ultra elite" sd cards 128 gb by samsung are now 45 euros, when they were like 120 almost one year ago.
This is very good for everyone, but in the other hand getting smaller sd cards will be harder and expensive. This is mostly for legacy devices that may not like sd cards that are bigger than 8 gb....

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bensimmo
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:50 am

Premier Farnell (element14) has 3500 employees, that's not a small company, and they have a license to make the Pi and have (own) the manufacturing facilities at Embest where some of them are made.

WDC is a lot larger, but Premier Farnell is not a small company by any means.
Anyway Newark Element14 1500 employees.
SanDisk 8000 that's a lot of people just for SD cards.
(*According to the internet)


If it was PiHut or Pimoroni then yes, or even Raspberry Pi Trading with its 35/40 employees?

The SD card will not get up to 100MB/s on a Pi no matter what you do, if you get 35-40MB/s on a 3B+ and have the buss running at twice the normal rate (100 not 50) you are doing well.
That's not often an important factor with refused the Operating System, that's the A1 speeds you need to look at where 7-8MB/s is a good card.


The NOOBs cards will have been purchased before the prices dropped, it then takes someone time and setup to put noobs on there. That costs extra money, you're paying for convenience.

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bensimmo
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:54 am

Anyway as I was actually going to say.
Amazon has a large purchasing power to buy direct from SanDisk, it then stock and sells them on in the Amazon cheap way

Element14 doesn't have quite the power (probably) to buy them super cheap.
It then has them custom made with noobs/pi logos from some I have seen and then noobs placeds on it.
Last time I used one it was a SanDisk card iirc, of the lower end. But that was some years back.

Ger_Pa
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:57 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:50 am
Premier Farnell (element14) has 3500 employees, that's not a small company, and they have a license to make the Pi and have (own) the manufacturing facilities at Embest where some of them are made.

The NOOBs cards will have been purchased before the prices dropped, it then takes someone time and setup to put noobs on there. That costs extra money, you're paying for convenience.
That's why i said a smaller company, if they have 3500 employees, then if not mistaken they are catalogued as enterprise. Anyway is pretty much you like, they may had the stock before the prices droppeds, plus the effort to put Noobs and then ship it to the retailers.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:10 am

Ger_Pa wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:57 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:50 am
Premier Farnell (element14) has 3500 employees, that's not a small company, and they have a license to make the Pi and have (own) the manufacturing facilities at Embest where some of them are made.

The NOOBs cards will have been purchased before the prices dropped, it then takes someone time and setup to put noobs on there. That costs extra money, you're paying for convenience.
That's why i said a smaller company, if they have 3500 employees, then if not mistaken they are catalogued as enterprise. Anyway is pretty much you like, they may had the stock before the prices droppeds, plus the effort to put Noobs and then ship it to the retailers.
Size of company is not closely correlated with the number of employees. Better measures would income generated and income per employee.

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bensimmo
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Re: Whoa, cheap flash memory prices?!

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:10 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:10 am
Ger_Pa wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:57 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:50 am
Premier Farnell (element14) has 3500 employees, that's not a small company, and they have a license to make the Pi and have (own) the manufacturing facilities at Embest where some of them are made.

The NOOBs cards will have been purchased before the prices dropped, it then takes someone time and setup to put noobs on there. That costs extra money, you're paying for convenience.
That's why i said a smaller company, if they have 3500 employees, then if not mistaken they are catalogued as enterprise. Anyway is pretty much you like, they may had the stock before the prices droppeds, plus the effort to put Noobs and then ship it to the retailers.
Size of company is not closely correlated with the number of employees. Better measures would income generated and income per employee.
Yes but no, all depends on how you want to represent size.
Manpower is often a factor.
You could have 100 people in China lined up pressing buttons to stick noobs on a card.
Or one person in Sheffield doing the same job. (Maybe a slight exaggeration?)
Or somebody with tech that has built a machine to do it for you, and gives it away for free.
All bad examples...
Use could use square footage too.

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