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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Firstly, Louis Rossman spends his life fixing Mac's for a living.

Secondly, yes, Macs are repairable. By authorized Mac repair centers at great expense. See for example: "Apple REFUSED to Fix our iMac Pro:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

Finally, news fresh in today: "Apple's New Proprietary Software Locks Will Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros"
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... ent-repair.
Yes I know about this dude. He does talk about the faults in apple products. He can't really say faults about windows products because there is a vast majority of windows laptops. Apple products are engineered well, they might have a few problems here and there but what laptop doesn't?

Saw this video before. Even though apple could not fix their computer due to not enough people being trained, Apple still has the best customer service out there.

I am aware that apple does these things mainly for business, but third party repairs don't usually come with quality. For example a couple of years ago i took my iphone 4s to a third party dealer to get the screen replaced. Comparing it to my friends iphone4s, you could see it was of a lower resolution. Going straight to apple will ensure you quality. If you dont wanna spend 1000s on repairs, get AppleCare.

I've had 3 windows desktop computers from 2006-2012. Each computer died within 2 years. I got a iMac 21.5 " in 2012, its still up and running like the day it was turned on. 6 years+ with a Mac. Yes Macs are not good for gaming, only multitasking. My dad also bought a Macbook pro in 2012, still running fine, only thing needs replacing is the right speaker.

Anyways this forum post was not to talk about Apple and microsoft.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:59 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:21 pm
I can think of three developments that would please me (note that I'm not saying the RPF *should*, let alone *must*, use these features). Start with going OLED. Second, increase the resolution. Third, add a larger screen. Unless and until any of that happens (and it may not be in my lifetime), when I find something I want to do where the 7" screen works, that's what I use and I'm happy to have it.
I like your pragmatism. I agree with you. However the 7" display was released sometime before September 2015, so it's been the only display for 3 years. The leading edge and the trailing edge have shifted considerably since then. Even if we allow the argument that the Pi exists solely for educational purposes, it is worth asking whether a teenage learner is going to find working with a 480p display so relevant, compared to the OLED or higher resolution display you mentioned. I'm reminded of how even the most ardent Apple fanboys complain that the Mac Mini is 4-year-old technology.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:09 pm

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:59 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:21 pm
I can think of three developments that would please me (note that I'm not saying the RPF *should*, let alone *must*, use these features). Start with going OLED. Second, increase the resolution. Third, add a larger screen. Unless and until any of that happens (and it may not be in my lifetime), when I find something I want to do where the 7" screen works, that's what I use and I'm happy to have it.
I like your pragmatism. I agree with you. However the 7" display was released sometime before September 2015, so it's been the only display for 3 years. The leading edge and the trailing edge have shifted considerably since then. Even if we allow the argument that the Pi exists solely for educational purposes, it is worth asking whether a teenage learner is going to find working with a 480p display so relevant, compared to the OLED or higher resolution display you mentioned. I'm reminded of how even the most ardent Apple fanboys complain that the Mac Mini is 4-year-old technology.
Is it worth pointing out that the Pi itself is more like 10 year old tech? So far, all Pi SoCs are fabbed on a 40nm process. When was the last time Intel used anything that big?

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:18 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:37 pm
When the Pi first came out, I had a project in mind. My only question was whether or not the Pi could handle the assigned job with it. So I bought a Pi and tested it. Turned out to--pretty much just barely--have the chops to do what I wanted it to.
There are other issues though. Primary in my mind is the question of the essential mission of the Rpi foundation. If it is educational then its efforts shouldn't stagnate. Some bits of hardware are more relevant to education and can maybe be updated more frequently i.e. the Rpi itself. But if you think about what projects can't be undertaken because some piece of hardware is insufficient i.e. the 7" screen was released 3 years ago, any project that isn't attempted is a missed educational opportunity, or delayed because it may require resorting into options that are sketchy like a bare display on eBay or Alibaba that may be dead on arrival. (Although one could say there's a lesson learned even in that case, albeit not a technical one.)

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:25 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:09 pm
Is it worth pointing out that the Pi itself is more like 10 year old tech? So far, all Pi SoCs are fabbed on a 40nm process. When was the last time Intel used anything that big?
Holy frijoles. Another interesting point about the SoC is that unlike the Intel CPUs, it isn't vulnerable to Spectre and a slew of other exploits. This is a reason to consider the ARM in general in lieu of Intel/AMD.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:38 pm

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:04 pm
I have to disagree with this statement. Apple does not make badly engineered products. They are not unreliable. They are repairable. Some of their products can be overpriced but not massively since they make many of their product parts themselves. I know your trying to make a point :P
Apple's great innovation was the physical Apple Store, which gives many phone and laptop owners a feeling of security because even if the device fails, there's a place to go to where hopefully they'll be fair. I compare this to my experience with a Toshiba laptop, where I was forced to repeatedly drive to the only tiny shop near me that repaired their junk, and which was reimbursed by Toshiba by the hour worked which is why they had the laptop for 2 months and attempted to repair it maybe 5 times, replacing nearly every part of it. With Apple overseeing its own in-house repairs, there's far less chance for shenanigans and they have to keep the hardware quality high enough to minimize costs. That said, they have found many other ways to play games.
- Preventing small shops from repairing laptops by various means.
- Putting refurbished parts into laptops and giving only a 3 months warranty on them (in the fine print).
- Sending returned laptops to a non-Apple factory that may or may not be installing malware on them.
- Not replacing new-but-defective Apple products bought from 3rd parties like in phone stores.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:45 pm

hippy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:35 pm
That doesn't mean it's perfect, doesn't preclude the potential for it being better, but it's certainly not doing badly for what it is.
Yes the actual Pi 3B+ is not bad when used with a heatsink. I just hope they'll continue improving the display. 3 years putting out a small 800x480 display is long enough.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:58 pm

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:45 pm
hippy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:35 pm
That doesn't mean it's perfect, doesn't preclude the potential for it being better, but it's certainly not doing badly for what it is.
Yes the actual Pi 3B+ is not bad when used with a heatsink. I just hope they'll continue improving the display. 3 years putting out a small 800x480 display is long enough.
If you really think keeping the same product on the market for 3 years without some sort of refresh is too long, I suggest that you design and being to market a display you'd prefer....and bring out a replacement no less often than every two years.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:58 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:13 pm
Apart from anecdotes of my own Apple experiences, which prove nothing, I point to the following evidence to back my assertions:...
Need I go on?
I would add that in every discussion with salespeople at Apple Stores-- I tend to linger and chat with them to get their honest takes on things-- the foisting of dongles on Macbook/pro users, and expensive keyboards and pens on iPad Pro users, seems to be accepted as purely a cynical greedy move to extract cash. It doesn't fulfill their reputation of being dedicated to improving user experience. Jobs is gone, Apple is floundering, albeit profitably because our lizard brains like shiny things.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:01 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:58 pm
If you really think keeping the same product on the market for 3 years without some sort of refresh is too long, I suggest that you design and being to market a display you'd prefer....and bring out a replacement no less often than every two years.
Would that require a trip to Shenzhen? My lungs have trouble with smog. But I'll be happy to pay Rpi for a better display, this being the theme of the thread.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:01 pm
I'll be happy to pay Rpi for a better display
If you are serious and can present a well researched, viable business case for it, be willing to fund what that would cost to research, design and develop, including extra staff costs, I am sure Eben or someone in the RPF or RPT would be delighted to talk to you.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:14 am

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:18 pm
There are other issues though. Primary in my mind is the question of the essential mission of the Rpi foundation. If it is educational then its efforts shouldn't stagnate.
If there is one thing about the RPF/RPT that I'm reasonably sure of, it's that they are not stagnating. Or to put it a more traditional way, they are not resting on their laurels. I could understand why the RPT wouldn't want to take on another screen project. They had enough trouble getting the current one working (and, at that, the first iteration of the controller lacked a planned feature: the ability to adjust the backlight; but that was fixed in the second iteration of the controller). They are a rather small organization on the hardware development side.

It has been stated that they think they have already grabbed the "low hanging fruit". That is, the easy to do enhancements are done. Whatever comes next is harder. I'm sure they are very busy working on what comes next. The only thing anybody can be reasonably sure is being worked on at this point is the Pi4B. I can think of several other things I'd like to see them do, and I've mentioned at least a couple of them in various threads, but at the end of the day, they have pretty clear ideas of where they're going and what they want to release. They just don't tell *us* what those plans and goals are.

Saying that the RPF/RPT "must" do this or that, or that they "must" come out with such-and-such a device puts one in mind of the very old adage: Don't teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am

1. The display uses PWM for its backlight control.
2. We are not stagnating. We have plenty of development going on.
3. 2 lane Dsi is capable of at least 720p. It's easy enough to work it out
4. We still sell plenty of the current display, so clearly enough people like them
5. Development of a new product takes quite a long time, especially ensuring supply chains are solid and manufacturing costs make the product cost effective.
6. I doubt we would release a LCD without a touchscreen.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:11 am

.....doubt we would release a LCD without a touchscreen.
Makes sense for most people these days, I just don't use them, they don't seem to work for me.

I've tried a couple of different tablets, (& the touch screen computers that the Government installed), hardly ever worked for me either!
I must be unique, as nobody else seems to have any trouble with touch screens. :lol:

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:03 am

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:38 pm
- Sending returned laptops to a non-Apple factory that may or may not be installing malware on them.
- Not replacing new-but-defective Apple products bought from 3rd parties like in phone stores.
Where did you read about installing malware? I have never heard about this?

Personally for the second option im neutral on this. Apple does not really know if the phone shops are using legit parts, but Apple should repair the phones either way.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:55 pm

Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:02 am
Question: why not sell a 13.3-inch display, which is the minimal size for productivity.
One thing to remember is the majority of those using a Pi for productivity purposes don't demand a small display and don't need a touch screen either and are perfectly happy using standard monitors and TV's up to 60" or more which are readily available. Second hand 19" monitors supporting full 1080p are available at bargain basement prices, £5-£10 in the UK.

I would imagine that the RPF 7" touch screen display is intended for those who want touch, and there's a range of third party products for those who want smaller. A huge chunk of use cases are therefore covered.

Th main use for a large touch screen is in the role of a larger laptop, which the Pi isn't particularly well suited to anyway. It's a niche that isn't necessarily in the RPF's remit to fulfill.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:04 am

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:03 am
Where did you read about installing malware? I have never heard about this?
Personally for the second option im neutral on this. Apple does not really know if the phone shops are using legit parts, but Apple should repair the phones either way.
Returned items go to a 3rd party for repackaging and are then sold at Walmart, Target, AT&T stores, etc. You can tell because the 3rd party never shrink wraps as well as Apple/Foxconn, and there's usually dust under the plastic.
Regarding malware, it's just deduction; I bought an iphone at AT&T, it started acting quite badly on the 2nd day, and Apple was keen to get their hands on it... And based on my grilling of them to get at their motives I deduced they suspected malware.

Regarding Apple doing repairs, so long as repair shops use genuine Apple parts, should be fine. However it's been discovered that Apple does not write device drivers with any thought to the possibility that an aftermarket part like a touchscreen may itself contain malware, so it's now considered essential to only use true Apple replacement parts. This is another reason to only go with official parts from any manufacturer, even RPi.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:23 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
5. Development of a new product takes quite a long time, especially ensuring supply chains are solid and manufacturing costs make the product cost effective.
Not to mention that, because the way the Pi market appears to work, any new device requires parts that will stay in production for an extended period of time. This is not always easy

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:36 am

hippy wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:55 pm
Njord wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:02 am
Question: why not sell a 13.3-inch display, which is the minimal size for productivity.

Th main use for a large touch screen is in the role of a larger laptop, which the Pi isn't particularly well suited to anyway. It's a niche that isn't necessarily in the RPF's remit to fulfill.
The 3B+ is just good enough for productivity in my opinion but yes, for a laptop solution it is maybe 1/2 cm too thick if the goal is thin. But anorexic laptops seem to be an unhealthy fad.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:41 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
1. The display uses PWM for its backlight control.
That's too bad. I'll have to steer clear of it then.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
3. 2 lane Dsi is capable of at least 720p. It's easy enough to work it out
Great. I was having trouble determining the bandwidth of 1 lane. Do you know it?
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
6. I doubt we would release a LCD without a touchscreen.
How about a e-ink display with a touch screen?

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:12 am

Njord wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:41 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
1. The display uses PWM for its backlight control.
That's too bad. I'll have to steer clear of it then.
If that's a problem, you probably have to stay away from *all* LED backlit screens.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
6. I doubt we would release a LCD without a touchscreen.
How about a e-ink display with a touch screen?
Do you know if anyone has even tried that? While e-ink is an interesting technology, from what I've seen it has some problems. First, it's monochrome, or very nearly. Second the the response for changing the image is slow. Third, no one seems to be making displays that get out the "tiny" (< 4") range. I really can't see the RPF going after an e-ink display...at least not until the technology matures a lot more.

And on a semi-related note (i.e. I don't want to make a separate post, so I'm going to cobble it onto this one)...

Note that the RPF likes to assure people that specific products will continue to be available. This extends to a commitment that the CM, CM3, CM3L boards will be available for purchase at least through 2023. Think about what that means for the production of the SoCs on those boards.

Earlier in the thread, you bemoaned the fact that after 3 years, the 7" display is all there is. Now try turning that around...if you use them, isn't it refreshing that after 3 years you can still get the same unit for either new use, or to replace a failed one? Given that the expected lifetime of the panel was given as 20K hours, in theory a 7" display purchased when they first came out is getting near the end of its expected service life if it is run 24/7. Now I haven't been running my alarm clock with the display that long (it's been about 8 months in this configuration...so far), but is does operate all the time, so I take comfort in the fact that 3 to 5 years down the road, if the panel fails...I should be able to replace it.

If something new comes along in the mean time...a 7" 720p or a 10" panel...that's all well and good, but being able to maintain existing setups in running order for an extended period of time is a big plus as far as I am concerned.

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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:39 am

Njord wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:41 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
1. The display uses PWM for its backlight control.
That's too bad. I'll have to steer clear of it then.
Pwm can run at almost any frequency, so quite plausibly above the range thar causes your tinnitus.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
3. 2 lane Dsi is capable of at least 720p. It's easy enough to work it out
Great. I was having trouble determining the bandwidth of 1 lane. Do you know it?
DSI runs at up to 500MHz, and is transfers data on both clock edges, so 1Gbit/s per lane.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:59 am
6. I doubt we would release a LCD without a touchscreen.
How about a e-ink display with a touch screen?
There are third party small e-ink displays for the Pi out there. As others have said, there is the issue of finding a reliable source of displays that will be available for several years to come.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:06 am

Some what off topic but whist we are talking screens and Apple:
Apple's war on refurbishing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA_em-0VYWY

I did not mean to bring the focus on to Apple. It was just an example in my attempt to understand our OPs question. The are millions of companies selling millions of products that millions of people like to buy. Many of them have me scratching my head and wondering why. Other examples might be Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Ikea, etc, etc...

At the end of the day companies like to make money and consumers get what they want, everyone is happy.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:22 am

I'm not sure where screen dimensions come into "productivity"
At my job, I use a square 5*5 inch touchscreen and it's more than adequate for me to be "productive"
On my Pi, I prefer a 5" screen because I intend it to be portable. I cannot imaging shoving a 10 inch or bigger screen in my pocket. I am productive in my social life by using a 5inch Android smartphone, more than adequate.

So I ask, what, to you, is "productive"?
It sounds like you want to make an art tablet.
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Re: Why sell a 7" screen?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:01 am

7" displays in tablets are still popular, it was once also the size to have.
8" have largely become the more normal size, mainly as bezels have reduced.
10" are a different level of tablet user.

Resolution is low on the old 7" they sell but it was 2015 when it came to market and I assume a least a year or so in development ?.
Which is the tail end of the initial 7" tablet market (and the screen is from around that era, the Nexus/Asus screen which it is pretty similar to)

If you don't believe the 7 & 8" market is popular?, then just look at Amazon, they wouldn't sell them if they were not.
Through the Fire7 is £30 to £50 quid depending on the time of year and may make a better remote Pi screen now, given it's cheaper than the bare screen.

From someone who uses 7, 8 and 10 in tablets.
8" is the nicer everyday size.

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