Lynbarn
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:01 am

The ePetition I launched - with 1100 signatures already (well beyond my expectations) - is now fully fledged, and has taken on a life of its own. Although it originated from Raspberry Pi, it doesn't mention the Foundation directly, as the issue it seeks to get addressed is far more widespread, and seems to have struck a cord in several other spheres. Thanks to all who contributed positively.

However, some of the posts on this thread have, quite frankly, been disappointing, and far from projecting the aims, aspirations, and achievements of the Foundation, they have painted their posters in a somewhat ugly light. I'm sad to have been any part of that.

Whilst it is obvious that some have very strongly held views, I don't believe this is the correct place to air them.

Several disscussion groups I belong to have a rule along the lines of "no discussing religion or politics". All I will add here is: Thank God* we didn't get onto religion!

Can I respectfully suggest to the Forum Admins that this thread is now drawn gently to a close. It has served its purpose.

 (* by "God", I mean whoever or whatever you consider to be the arbiter of all things)

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meltwater
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:14 am

I agree, (there are some really bad posts been made on this)..but it is the same on the blog post comments and the other thread "pushed the button" thread.

I guess religion or politics thing holds true here, as for other comments, please consider if they are going to offend others if so keep it to yourself.  The site is not a school debating site, or a place to fight with others, it's about assisting and aiding the goals of the foundation or projects using the R-Pi.

I would expect bans to be handed out quite freely soon, because it has to be clear to people normal forum rules are there for a reason.
______________
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TheTap
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:33 am

meltwater said:


The site is not a school debating site,.....


It is a bit, surely ?

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meltwater
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:37 am

TheTap said:


meltwater said:


The site is not a school debating site,…..


It is a bit, surely ?


"Oh no it's not!" in a panto-style

No problem with debating which bit pattern will send a ASCII char over RS232, but some things people will not agree on and are very personal beliefs and that is fine, but there are other sites for those kind of fights.
______________
http://www.themagpi.com/
A Magazine for Raspberry Pi Users
Read Online or Download for Free.

My new book: goo.gl/dmVtsc

Meltwater's Pi Hardware - pihardware.com

Like the MagPi? @TheMagP1 @TheMagPiTeam

jltgordon
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Signed e-petition and sent letter to MEP's MP etc.. One reply so far...

Thank you for your email of 11 January citing the work of the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

 I have seen some material in the press about the release of this small single circuit computer, and I wish the Foundation success in its endeavours. A distinction in whether the parts are taxed but the completed product isn’t maybe because officials feel it is difficult to trace the end use of the relevant parts to ensure they are used for a charitable purpose. Nonetheless I have written to the UK Treasury for a full explanation and I will be happy to revert when I receive a response.

 Yours sincerely,

 Sir Graham Watson MEP
Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar

The Liberty, Old Kelways, Langport TA10 9SJ

bradburts
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:19 pm

I had a quick look shortly after Liz posted.

As far as I could gather the import duty on some components was around 2.5%.

My quick reading however was that the duty on many electronic components was 0%.

It was just a scan read but I gained the impression that most of the expensive components would attract 0% duty. Minor components such as resistors and capacitors would be charged however.

I cannot now find the reference......

What figures are we talking about?

Shorack
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:47 pm

I can't shake the feeling that there is simply a mistake somewhere.

Assuming it is a protective policy, it does not make sense at all.

Also, it's exactly the inverse of protectionist policies in other industries such as automotive. (where the complete product is taxed more, to give the incentive to local assembly)

Then again, politics does produce weird results from time to time.

Final point: jltgordon's approach is absolutely the way to go.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:58 pm

Are you seriously suggesting that governments work in a logical fashion? There will be a benefit to someone, somewhere but I doubt whether the ordinary citizen was considered.

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walney
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:20 pm

@shorack

It does make sense if what you are trying to protect is the electronic components industry, which was probably the case when it was introduced... it's just anachronistic now.

nichobb
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:05 pm

We also tend to leave bad laws/acts in place, long after it was relevant (I would say trade legislation should have a shelf life but that would probably cause trouble as well). The whole tax/duty is so complex because of all these peacemeal adjustments, most of which probably had some good aim at conception

Re: my previous post, I did get miffed. I didn"t mean to come across as saying it wasn"t a good petition, it was a comment on not deserving it. I"m white but my current GF is Chinese and a few before her was a Bengali (a smattering of others from various backgrounds but less serious), the number of times people that don"t know make a "joke" is beyond belief. Living with someone isn"t a prerequisite for disliking the views but it makes you take it personally. Hate to think how Chinese people felt reading some of the comments.

jonboy
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:50 pm

For those that dont import regularly one area to be careful of when importing is clearance fee's that carriers charge to cover the customs clearance data entry work.

These are levied per consignment so a finished article may have one fee (circa £45 for a commercial shipper, opposed to the £8.50 a domestic shipment may incur) on the batch.  There are also additional fees if a consignment involves many different types of commodity so grouping deliveries together will only mitigate the effect to a certain degree.

Start importing the components from different suppliers, ready to manufacture into a finished article here, and these sorts of fees will soon build up - even if the components incur zero duty.

Then you get onto handling fees  etc. etc.

LeeP
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:16 pm

Right, as I have access to a tax consultant (my dad), I thought I would put him to the test and he may have proved why it's worth paying for one:

"There is a special Customs relief known as Processing under Customs Control.  Essentially, where components are imported and ordinarily duty is payable, if those products are then used to manufacture a product that would have qualified as duty free i.e. a computer, then there is a relief provided on the imported components so that they do not attract duty."

Relevant page on HMRC

and on Business Link

I've sent details to the info address too.

So maybe that'll help for future manufacturing runs.

Sylvain
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:43 pm

LeeP said:


Right, as I have access to a tax consultant (my dad), I thought I would put him to the test and he may have proved why it's worth paying for one:

"There is a special Customs relief known as Processing under Customs Control.  Essentially, where components are imported and ordinarily duty is payable, if those products are then used to manufacture a product that would have qualified as duty free i.e. a computer, then there is a relief provided on the imported components so that they do not attract duty."

Relevant page on HMRC

and on Business Link

I've sent details to the info address too.

So maybe that'll help for future manufacturing runs.



Realy realy interesting !

That's in part why I was asking people to find the exact text, about that problem.

Thank you and your father,

Sylvain.

PS : "Tax consultant", that's probabably what I have called wrongly a "specialist lawyer" in my first message.

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Burngate
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:30 pm

As of just now, 1314 signatures, and 189th.

When I came to this forum, I thought I'd be learning about Linux.

But I've also been learning about how to produce and market a bit of electronic kit, and how a charity works.

And now about customs duty and tax law. And how central government works.

Funny old life.

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Burngate
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:57 pm

1510 signatures, 171st

budgieboy
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:35 pm

mebrew said:


Would it not have been more positive for you to have included in your petition, the exact reverse.

i.e. Items manufactured, complete, outside the UK to have attracted import duty. Thus making the benefit to UK manufacture greater.



+ 1 more!

Lynbarn
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:45 pm

budgieboy said:


mebrew said:


Would it not have been more positive for you to have included in your petition, the exact reverse.

i.e. Items manufactured, complete, outside the UK to have attracted import duty. Thus making the benefit to UK manufacture greater.


+ 1 more!



I'm not sure how that would have been better - That would mean Raspberry Pi's would have to be more expensive, regardless of where they were made or assembled. The idea, all other things being equal (which they aren't), is to equalise the duty of components and finished articles, so that the duty payable would be the same (ideally, at 0%), regardless of where they were actually made.

budgieboy
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:55 pm

Just me jumping in the water before looking. I was just acknowledging I had signed the petition. The recent post  by LeeP regarding the special Customs relief known as Processing under Customs Control seems a more profitable avenue for R Pi to persue.

Regards

Budgieboy

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Burngate
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:02 pm

1638, 159th

Paul7k
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:04 pm

all though i think its great if people in UK are able to get more work, i dont quite understand though why there is such an uprising for the Ras Pi going to another country to be built when this happends for 99% of devices most people have in their homes today, i dont believe i own a single device in my home (are there are many many devices in my home) that are made in britain which is electronic, and i asume its the same for most people as friends/family are also the same.

phones, tvs, radios etc are all commonly built in other countries, all though it would be really nice to see more british electronics, dont get me wrong it would be good for us but i dont mind the fact they are built be people who have more experience in doing so since they have built so much already.

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Burngate
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:26 pm

1769 signatures, 154th. Also 17th on Treasury list.

Michael
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:24 am

div.uv-card { background: #fff; border: 1px solid #CED6E6; -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px; color: #5C5F66; font: normal 11px/1.3em "HelveticaNeue", Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0; max-width: 500px; padding: 10px 10px 5px 10px; text-rendering: optimizelegibility; zoom: 1;}div.uv-card:after { content: "."; display: block; height: 0; clear: both; visibility: hidden;}.uv-card-info { line-height: 1em; margin-bottom: 10px;}.uv-card-topic { color: #A0A6B3; display: inline-block;}.uv-card-status { background: #DBF0B4; -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px; color: #446600; display: inline-block; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; margin-right: 5px; padding: 3px 5px; text-transform: uppercase;}.uv-card-meta { float: right; list-style: none; line-height: 16px; margin: 0 0 10px 20px; padding: 0;} .uv-card-meta li { margin: 0 0 .7em 0; padding: 0; } .uv-card-meta img { border: none; vertical-align: bottom; }.uv-card-votes { background: #F9FAFC; border: 1px solid #DBDEE6; display: inline-block; -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px;}.uv-card-votes-button { background: #F3F6FA; border: 1px solid #A0A6B3; -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px; color: #293E66; display: inline-block; font-weight: bold; margin: -1px; padding: 3px 7px 3px 5px; text-decoration: none;}.uv-card-votes-count { display: inline-block; padding-right: 7px; margin-left: 3px;}.uv-card-comments,.uv-card-votecount { display: inline-block; padding: 3px 5px;}.uv-card-votecount {color: #576800;}.uv-card-title { color: #293E66; font-size: 15px; font-weight: bold; margin: 0 0 10px 0; padding: 0;} h2.uv-card-title a { color: inherit; text-decoration: none; }.uv-card-description { margin-bottom: 10px;} .uv-card-description p { margin: 0 0 .7em 0; padding: 0; } I suggest a campaign about ... 128 votes 5 comments Change import duty rules to encourage EU and British manufacturing An EU-based company importing electronic components from outside of the EU has to pay duty on those components (most are made in the Far East). If, however, a device is manufactured outside the EU from those same components, then imported into the EU, it does not attract import duty. A company ma...


...languishing on page 7 of the 38degrees campaign suggestions with 128 votes and 13th place on 'economy'.  If we can get that up to 700 votes, that places it in 3rd place on 'economy' and in the middle of page 2 overall.  That would give it a good chance of being picked up by the 38degrees team as a future campaign.

You can also tweet or facebook like the campaign from the link above.

Lynbarn
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:00 pm

Burngate said:


1769 signatures, 154th. Also 17th on Treasury list.



Oops! dropped to 155th (out of around 11,000) so not too bad after a fortnight!

1877 government ePetition signatures though, so sombody must think it worth pursuing!

Also, it's great to see that the "write to your MP" campaign is having such an impact!

Keep on writing and voting!

jltgordon
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:08 pm

This from Ashley Fox...

Thank you for your email of 11th January 2012 and I apologise for the delay
in replying to you.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation sounds like an excellent scheme and I fully
commend those involved with the project. As I am sure you are aware the UK
has a chronic shortage of engineers and scientists and anything we can do to
reverse this trend is sensible.

Could you please inform me to which particular regulation you are referring
in order for me to know where pressure needs to be applied?

Can anybody answer his question and I can then reply to him.

Thanks.

James.

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Burngate
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Re: Petition the government to "Change import duty rules to encourage British manufacturing"

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:54 pm

1960 signatures, 17th on the Treasury list, 155 overall.

Also 148 votes on 38degrees (still page 7 - I've voted, have you?)

Re. Ashley Fox's question to jltgordon, he could be pointed at the current petition, and to HMRC and http://www.sloanefox.freeserve...../taric.htm

Though since he's an MEP he might turn round and say it's not an EU problem it's one for the British Government. And Britiain says they can't do anything - it's EU rules ...

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