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Burngate
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:21 am

Now that is interesting. I've not found that page, before - it seems to be aimed at shop managers, etc. rather than the general public.

It would seem to be reasonable to expect an outlet that sells batteries to accept used ones for disposal, but how that would work for on-line sales I don't know.

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:43 am

Burngate wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:32 am
It depends on where you are.

Batteries generally contain nasty elements that shouldn't go to landfill, but how you deal with them is difficult.
I'm lucky; my local Tesco's has a used battery recycling point. Your mileage will definitely vary.
I've read that the materials in LiPo batteries are non-toxic, in contrast to NiCd.


But this data sheet suggests there are some things in there that should be treated with care.
Lithium cobalt oxide: Odorless blue-black powder - cobalt and cobalt compounds are considered to be possible human carcinogens. By International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC): May irritate eyes, skin, nose, throat and respiratory system and may cause allergic skin sensitization.

https://system.na3.netsuite.com/core/me ... e&_xt=.pdf
Some Li Ion batteries contain toxins
Physics researchers at Virginia Commonwealth University have discovered that most of the electrolytes used in lithium-ion batteries—commonly found in consumer electronic devices—are superhalogens, and that the vast majority of these electrolytes contain toxic halogens.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2014-10-li-ion-ba ... y.html#jCp
This looks like a good source of info on Li Ion and LiPo safety.
Mishandling  of  LiPo  batteries  can  lead  to  fire,  explosions  and  toxic  smoke  inhalation.

http://www.uvm.edu/safety/sites/default ... safety.pdf

wolf.z
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:35 pm

On mystery and hysteria concerning lithium-ion cells.

All that lithium batteries out there use different chemistry with execption for their anode, mostly made from carbon. The cathode is an oxide from varying metals. In case of a so called thermal runaway it is mostly the anode carbon burning, as the lithium in a lithium battery is just %. That is why stories on using water for exstinguishing burning lithium cells are so confusing.

If lithium cells go the thermal runaway, most of the exothermal energy comes from: the thermally unstable cathode is releasing it's oxygen, reacting directly with the carbon of the anode. That fire is that hot, exstinguishing with water all of a sudden creates much vapour possibly helping spreading toxic additional chemistry from the cells. However, if a cell of a huge battery pack is burning, there might be a little chance of preventing the other cells from also burning by cooling them with much water. It is not the water accelerating a huge lithium fire, just a bit.

So best is, to let the cell burn till burnt out if there is no danger of further fire. Second best to use sand as an attempt to keep the surrounding from catching fire. Third best, use even water. But keep in mind this will eventually help spreading toxic fume. In no way one is able to exstinguish the fire, as the cathode is delivering oxygen inside the overheated cell.

The most unstable chemistry available used is cobalt dioxide. A thermal runaway may start from 130 - 150°C. So one better should keep those cells well below 70°C, as using a battery will heat it up. Other commercially available chemistry is much more robust temperature-wise. That's one reason why so many different lithium cell chemistries are existing.

Discharging the lithium battery mainly prevents from huge internal currents in case of internal shorts, introduced by many ways of mistreats of the cells before. No stored energy - no short circuit current. Basically a fully discharged lithium cell won't be able to initialize the thermal runaway any more. But do this discharge with low discharge current as an external short possibly could easily help building an internal short with pre-damaged areas inside, causing the thermal runaway to start.

And don't try to recharge fully discharged lithium-ions. That may cause another process for starting a fire.

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:36 pm

The TLDR version seems to be you put Lithium Polymer batteries in water safely because they don't contain lithium metal but at least some Lithium Ion batteries do contain metal that could ignite in water. So make sure you know what your battery is.

wolf.z
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:44 pm

PiGraham wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:36 pm
...but at least some Lithium Ion batteries do contain metal that could ignite in water...
Aha, which one metal?

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joan
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:25 pm

We are talking about LIPO batteries. Put them in salted water.

Worrying about LIPO batteries containing Lithium burning in water is like worrying about salt burning in water because it contains Sodium.

Heater
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:48 pm

Never mind the water. LIPOs go on fire and burn very well without water.

That is why MS sends you flame retardant packaging in which to return swelling Surfaces and Laptops. And then gets them picked up by courier service.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:58 pm

joan wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:25 pm
We are talking about LIPO batteries. Put them in salted water.

Worrying about LIPO batteries containing Lithium burning in water is like worrying about salt burning in water because it contains Sodium.
No It isn't.
Don't just assume that all white crystals are salt. Not all lithium batteries are LiPo, people may not be aware so don't just talk about LiPo.

Know the difference between LiPo, Li-Ion, LiFePo4 and Lithium primary cells.

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:00 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:48 pm
Never mind the water. LIPOs go on fire and burn very well without water.

That is why MS sends you flame retardant packaging in which to return swelling Surfaces and Laptops. And then gets them picked up by courier service.
They do indeed, and you can dump LiPo in water but you shouldn't do that with some other Lithium batteries, which can also burn very well without water.

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:04 am

Another form of Litium cell that may be safer than Li-Po or Li-Ion
LCB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJXRyWQgOY4


Capacity is low but flexibility and / or safety when damaged may be more important in some uses.

KanoMaster22
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Graham you have watched the same video as I did yesterday. LCBs do sound good and I have already emailed Prologium (the manufacturer) of these batteries to see if I can buy some. However, I can not access their website but from what I have read elsewhere they are not available yet for consumers to buy but are apparently already in a few products like this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/HTC-Power-Buil ... op?ie=UTF8). Maybe it won't cost a small fortune to pay for shipping for these batteries as they are safer than lipo!

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 am

KanoMaster22 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Graham you have watched the same video as I did yesterday. LCBs do sound good and I have already emailed Prologium (the manufacturer) of these batteries to see if I can buy some. However, I can not access their website but from what I have read elsewhere they are not available yet for consumers to buy but are apparently already in a few products like this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/HTC-Power-Buil ... op?ie=UTF8). Maybe it won't cost a small fortune to pay for shipping for these batteries as they are safer than lipo!
Note that the LCBs have much lower capacity than Li-Po or Li-Ion.

Why do you think the HTC battery case is not Li-Po?

wolf.z
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:15 am

PiGraham wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:04 am
Another form of Litium cell that may be safer than Li-Po or Li-Ion
LCB
...
The LCB as well as the Li-Po is a Li-Ion battery. Do not mix up associations of common sense with Li ion=cylindrical cell and Li po=pouch cell. However, there are many approaches towards safer Li batteries. Today's safest widely commercial Li ion available is the LiFePo4 in means of thermal stability. Ceramic seperator LCB and non-burning non-graphite anode types probably will improve that, since all former improvements focused on cathode chemistry.
However, disposing today's Li batteries has to take care for the risk of self-igniting, lowered to almost 0 by discharging the battery, all in a non burning environment, since a lack of either cell imprint and knowledge for distinguishing cell chemistry of an actually damaged cell.

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:32 am

wolf.z wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:15 am
PiGraham wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:04 am
Another form of Litium cell that may be safer than Li-Po or Li-Ion
LCB
...
The LCB as well as the Li-Po is a Li-Ion battery. Do not mix up associations of common sense with Li ion=cylindrical cell and Li po=pouch cell.
It has nothing to do with the shape of the cell per se. It's about the chemistry and type of electrolyte and chemistry.
Lithium polymer cells have evolved from lithium-ion and lithium-metal batteries. The primary difference is that instead of using a liquid lithium-salt electrolyte (such as LiPF6) held in an organic solvent (such as EC/DMC/DEC), the battery uses a solid polymer electrolyte (SPE) such as poly(ethylene oxide) (PEO), poly(acrylonitrile) (PAN), poly(methyl methacrylate) (PMMA) or poly(vinylidene fluoride) (PVdF).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_p ... erminology
LCB uses solid ceramic.

KanoMaster22
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:40 pm

PiGraham wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 am
KanoMaster22 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Graham you have watched the same video as I did yesterday. LCBs do sound good and I have already emailed Prologium (the manufacturer) of these batteries to see if I can buy some. However, I can not access their website but from what I have read elsewhere they are not available yet for consumers to buy but are apparently already in a few products like this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/HTC-Power-Buil ... op?ie=UTF8). Maybe it won't cost a small fortune to pay for shipping for these batteries as they are safer than lipo!
Note that the LCBs have much lower capacity than Li-Po or Li-Ion.

Why do you think the HTC battery case is not Li-Po?
I read it on a article about the batteries here - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 45258.html. To save you reading through it here is the quote -
First commercial final product embedded LCB is a power flip case of hTc One Max, an official accessory made by hTc

PiGraham
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Re: How to dispose of broken lipo

Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:01 am

Thanks for the link. Not much mention of LCB. Seems the flip case has been around 5 years and this is the first I've heard of LCB technology.

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