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liz
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Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:48 am

We've (with Broadcom's help) open sourced the ARM userland. More at http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/2221 - hurrah!
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cave
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:17 pm

nice,

hopefully this helps
Simon's accelerated X development thread
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... =63&t=4649
http://cavebeat.blogspot.co.at

asb
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:35 pm

Also check out http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/ ... 35262.html and (optionally) enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4jnaznUoQ as part of your celebration.

shortcircuit
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:48 pm

That is indeed a big step in the right direction, thank you !
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Bakul Shah
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:32 pm

Excellent news! Congratulations and Thanks to all involved @ RPF & Broadcom! [BTW, I tried posting this on the blog entry for this but attempts from Opera as well as Safari failed]

Edit: looks like it got through to the blog entry. Thanks!

BTW, nice to know you guys are following the Plan9 work! Its GUI needs are pretty modest so this won't make a huge difference but may be now we can get openGL on it! [Don't anyone hold their breath though].

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Wizard
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Hear, hear!!!

So a "small" open source-ish SoC board project can impress Monoliths like Broadcom to actually deviate from NDA processes and let us have a butcher at the code! :D

Many thanks for this step and this will for sure ensure the future for Raspberry Pi!

I'm now warming up my Android build server and shall have a go at it ;)
Raspberry Pi - finally a worthy replacement for A500!!!

toxibunny
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Lots of talk on the frontpage, but hardly any here.

Can someone explain please, what does this *mean*?

For example - does it now mean that the bare-metal, baking pi guys can use openGL instead of just a framebuffer? If so, then that's awesome...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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cheery
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Re: Big open news!

Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Eben said this in slashdot: "To help people get the most out of this, we hope to sponsor some efforts to formally document the interface exposed by the GPU over the next few months."

I looked into userland and wrappings for opengl functions seem to end up to: khronos_server_lock_func_table, khronos_server_unlock_func_table

I did not find these from the sources I had. Where are they defined? How are these RPCs handled anyway? I guess that's a good starting point for it all. If not, pass an another.

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:27 am

Liz, Edben, everyone at RPF, Broadcom,

What fantastic news. Well done.

I'm going to order another Pi just to celebrate and as a big thank you. Well, that and I'm greedy for more RAM.

The Pi just gets better and better.

As usual, when something good is announced a lot of whiners turn up. This time it's "It's not open enough, the intersting code is in the binary firmware blob, bla bla bla"

There may be some truth in some of that but as far as I'm concerned:
a) That is firmware for the GPU. It may as well be in a ROM on the GPU or even have been implemented as VHDL/Verilog i.e. to actually be the harware. Logically it makes no difference.
b) If the FSF says it would be acceptable if the blob were in a ROM I would not like to argue points of the definition of "free software" with them.
c) I don't care if it never is actually in a ROM. I can always write protect the copy I have for all time if I want. I can always check it is not changed by using md5sum.
d) Yes us greedy free software types would like everything opened up, but come on this is a huge step.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:01 am

Yeah, if the PI had a hard-disk they probably would have wanted the source code of the firmware in the hard-disk, but I don't see PC using FOSS advocates asking for that from the Hard-dik manufacturiers.

AFAIK No computer is completely free of proprietary software, not even if you forego a HD, and use a SSD instead, because that too has firmware running things inside. Even SD-cards have some sort of microcode running inside!

Not to speak of things like WiFi adapters, that often need to have (proprietary) firmware uploaded to them.

I sympathise with open source and FOSS, but you can take things to extremes, and become FOSS zealots.

In fact it seems the more you give to these people the harder they complain! :roll:

Fact is that this move makes it much more easy to write code for the PI, not only drivers, but complete OS's, and yes, it means that bare metal programmers can get the same access to all the capabilities of the hardware that Linux has. So bare metal programmers can get capabilities beyond writing to frame-buffers, and RiscOS can become a real alternative. :D

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:41 am

I get confused by the ever changing meaning of common terms.

"Firmware": It used to be that firmware was the software you burned into ROMs. You could only do it once, once a bit was burned it was burned. Hence it was firm ware rather than mallable soft ware.

Then firmware became changable with the use of EEPROMS and FLASH memory and so on.

Now firmware is just another, very soft, file sitting in my file system. The only thing that makes it firm is that I don't have the source code and tool chain to sensibly modify it.

"User land": It used to be that user land was code that runs with user level permissions in user memory space. As opposed to kernel code that was protected from users in the kernel memory space and had kernel level access to everything so that it could tweak the hardware directly.

In this announcemnet "user land" seems to be refering to the driver software which is in fact run in kernel space on linux at least. The "not user land" seems to be the firmware that is used by the GPU hardware.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:17 am

Ok go ahead and try to bring some facts into the confusion and make it more confusing LOL.

BTW great news and congratulations RPF.
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:04 am

Heater wrote:In this announcemnet "user land" seems to be refering to the driver software which is in fact run in kernel space on linux at least. The "not user land" seems to be the firmware that is used by the GPU hardware.
This is in fact user land code. The kernel driver was already open source. This is the source for the (previously binary-only) user land libraries that resided in /opt/vc/.
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:53 am

This is awesome news!. Well done the the Foundation and a big thankyou to Broadcom for releasing this source. I hope this is a sign of Broadcom and SoC vendors in general developing a more open attitude.

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liz
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:23 am

Thanks guys! I thought you might also find this Slashdot thread interesting; Eben rolled up a few hours in and wrote quite a lot in response to the questions there.
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:07 pm

Heater wrote:I get confused by the ever changing meaning of common terms.

"Firmware": It used to be that firmware was the software you burned into ROMs. You could only do it once, once a bit was burned it was burned. Hence it was firm ware rather than mallable soft ware.
Yes, one of the innovations of the PI that made its low price possible is that it doesn't contain any ROM, except a very tiny one in the GPU logic which only task is to read the rest of what is needed from a cheap SD-Card. Its for that reason that the PI also doesn't have a BIOS.

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:48 pm

Well, I tried to respond to the bi 'ol thread o' twattishness on the front page, but it seems to be b0rked.

Anyroadup, well done to the Foundation, and to Broadcom, for doing something outstanding.

And particularly well done to Liz / Eben and all those responding on the aforementioned big 'ol thread for not telling Luc "respek mah authoriTEH" Verhaegen to get *ahem* "stuffed". Mind you, if you decide to do so retrospectively, Theo de Radt could do with a poke up the fundament as well.

Simon

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liz
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:01 pm

Have to admit - I did have to step away from the computer and go and get a glass of wine at that point. I really wouldn't have minded if he'd been prepared to debate politely, but the DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM? thing...drove me to drink.

(I do know who Luc is. I have quite a lot of nuanced opinion about Luc.)
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:06 pm

Heh. I /didn't/ know who he was, but I do now.

"Do you know who I am?"

"Yes, you're a #$)&^!_&$^&%NO CARRIER

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:18 pm

tufty wrote:Well, I tried to respond to the bi 'ol thread o' twattishness on the front page, but it seems to be b0rked.

Anyroadup, well done to the Foundation, and to Broadcom, for doing something outstanding.

And particularly well done to Liz / Eben and all those responding on the aforementioned big 'ol thread for not telling Luc "respek mah authoriTEH" Verhaegen to get *ahem* "stuffed". Mind you, if you decide to do so retrospectively, Theo de Radt could do with a poke up the fundament as well.

Simon
It honestly amazes me that when I go to other forums on the rpi, I'll find one guy who got banned that convinces everyone else that the "respek mah authoriTEH" via bans with anyone who disagrees with the foundation. I always want to send them to posts like the one yesterday, so much negativity towards a big step in the open source direction!
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:22 pm

Just saw a post on another forum where someone was commenting that the naysayers seem hell bent on wrecking a charity designed to help teach children, simply because they got banned from here (I've never regretted bans here - all thoroughly deserved, and I'm pretty easy going! Surprising few of them as well. Maybe one in 1000). Thought he had a good point.
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:30 pm

tufty wrote:Heh. I /didn't/ know who he was, but I do now.

"Do you know who I am?"

"Yes, you're a #$)&^!_&$^&%NO CARRIER
I'm reminded of the line from Good Morning Vietnam " You are in more dire need of a ********* than any white man in history. ".
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:31 pm

tufty wrote:Heh. I /didn't/ know who he was, but I do now.
Seems anything achieved by mere mortals is only worthy of his contempt...
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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:47 pm

jamesh wrote:Just saw a post on another forum where someone was commenting that the naysayers seem hell bent on wrecking a charity designed to help teach children, simply because they got banned from here (I've never regretted bans here - all thoroughly deserved, and I'm pretty easy going! Surprising few of them as well. Maybe one in 1000). Thought he had a good point.
you're doing a great job here, it's really hard to inspire and celebrate a community, the pi forums are one of the best places online to hang out with others who share the desire to help people of all ages and skill levels.

thanks james!

ladyada (and adafruit team)

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Re: Big open news!

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:57 pm

adafruit wrote:
jamesh wrote:Just saw a post on another forum where someone was commenting that the naysayers seem hell bent on wrecking a charity designed to help teach children, simply because they got banned from here (I've never regretted bans here - all thoroughly deserved, and I'm pretty easy going! Surprising few of them as well. Maybe one in 1000). Thought he had a good point.
you're doing a great job here, it's really hard to inspire and celebrate a community, the pi forums are one of the best places online to hang out with others who share the desire to help people of all ages and skill levels.

thanks james!

ladyada (and adafruit team)
Hey speaking of great jobs, how about that Pi starter kit on your site? Looks like quite the impressive array of stuff to start learning some of the lower level GPIO things with the Pi.
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