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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:48 pm
by jamesh
LeMoog wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:19 pm
Hmm, tweaked 3B with PoE and new LAN chip, it is a shame that they didn't include an option for more RAM like the original Acorn B+.

Given that the Organisation's intended market (electronic project hobbyists and education) then less is OFC more but the question is, can education and electronic projects alone maintain the RPi, it certainly didn't for the beeb

Those that remember Acorn ( B+ and Master as a stop gap whilst they created the ARM for the Arch) will also remember what it cost Acorn. Even after the ARM came out and was the best micro computing CPU of the time, Acorn had already lost control of their market

My thinking is that it might be worth the Org finding out if the markets they are willing to support is sufficent to keep the organisation going when all the other customers move on to better things. The Pi still has the most optimised ARM linux and open hardware documentation but it is ultimately for tech that has moved on and I for one know what happens next if nothing changes.
It might be worth considering that we sell about 5M Pi's a year, and have a great engineering team, along with people who know both the educational AND commercial markets very well.

Then ask yourself, are we really sitting on our backsides doing nothing whilst competitors (who singularly fail to sell 5M devices a year) overtake us?

Look on the B+ as an evolution of the 3B rather than an entirely new model (although its a great upgrade). Entirely new will have to wait a bit longer, but don;t worry, its on its way, but the development of a fast, robust, certified product takes time.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:49 pm
by jamesh
supra wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:38 pm
I already orderd today. Can I ask you question, please. Can I used my 32gb microcard from my older rpi-3 to newest rpi-3B+?
Do an update/upgrade cycle and it should be fine.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:52 pm
by tkaiser
supra wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:38 pm
Can I used my 32gb microcard from my older rpi-3 to newest rpi-3B+?
Yes. But you need to upgrade it to latest software available now. Only this will ensure that the stuff living in /boot/ will be recent enough. So do an 'sudo apt update' / 'sudo apt upgrade' now to get at least latest version of 'raspberrypi-bootloader' package before inserting the SD card into your new board.

PS: That's an assumption that it's 'raspberrypi-bootloader' that does the magic. But if you update everything you should be save.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:57 pm
by tkaiser
Raspberry Paul wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 pm
Interesting to note that some news outlets are saying the new board INCLUDES POE. All it has is a new set of headers - that can be used for POE.
And an appropriate MagJack of course since otherwise PoE would be useless :)

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:58 pm
by rolandvagyok
Is it possible to configure the 3B+ to use the 5.9GHz bandwidth for communication?

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:03 pm
by DougieLawson
supra wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:38 pm
I already orderd today. Can I ask you question, please. Can I used my 32gb microcard from my older rpi-3 to newest rpi-3B+?
You need the latest Stretch update (sudo apt update; sudo apt -y dist-upgrade).

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:03 pm
by hippy
MattHawkinsUK wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:22 pm
More stuff for the same money. What is there not to like?
That is the best one line synopsis I have seen.

There is a price to be paid for having better capabilities in terms of increased current draw but that's no surprise; that usually is the price which has to paid. Apart from that it doesn't seem that the 3B+ is any way worse than the 3B, and is in fact better all-round, and for the same price.

It would have been nice if there were even more better things but there are limitations which can only be addressed with an entirely new SoC design rather than an incremental improvement of the old. It may only be an incremental improvement but it is better than nothing.

People should perhaps be grateful they have got anything new or upgraded at all as none of it is essential to fulfil the educational goals of the Foundation, and some have argued that it's not even in the remit of those educational goals to deliver what they have.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:26 pm
by Heater
tkaiser,
Welcome to Gigabit Ethernet then where passive PoE as you are used to doesn't work any more ;)

GbE uses all 4 cable pairs so 'shoving power into it' is not the greatest idea... already curious whether RPi's PoE HAT will be more expensive than the TL-POE10R we usually use with GbE and SBCs...
Do what?

If I can't just hang the Pi off an ethernet cable with PoE shoved up it and have it work, without any expense, bulk,complication of a PoE board on the Pi then the whole idea seems kind of pointless.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:28 pm
by alphanumeric
MattHawkinsUK wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:22 pm
More stuff for the same money. What is there not to like?
Ditto to those comments.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:35 pm
by gregeric
Partial schematics at https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... ematic.pdf show that the enable pin of the new power management IC, MxL7704, is brought out to the RUN header. So true low power standby(<10uA quoted for the PMIC) should be possible with wakeup eg by minimal circuitry from a RTC.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:36 pm
by Heater
Feahnor,
...it's really outdated to the point of not being competitive nor useful in 2018. And you have to accept that people are not happy with it.
Funny that, I find the Pi very useful for all kind of things. Mostly it has more performance and features than the task assigned to it needs. Millions of people, like me, are very happy with that.

Now, I'm glad you are here. Clearly you have found other small SBCs that are more "competitive" and "useful". I would be very grateful if you could let me know what they are. Thank you.

Of course I suspect you have not. Else you would be chatting on that products forum, not this one.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:55 pm
by PiGraham
gregeric wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:35 pm
Partial schematics at https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... ematic.pdf show that the enable pin of the new power management IC, MxL7704, is brought out to the RUN header. So true low power standby(<10uA quoted for the PMIC) should be possible with wakeup eg by minimal circuitry from a RTC.
MaxLinear have a short article on their chip in Pi3B+.
The MxL7704 enables the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ to be more compact and flexible. The PMIC’s I2C interface communicates with the computer’s on-board SoC for dynamic voltage scaling, status monitoring, sequencing control and PGOOD routing. These unique features provide the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ with more knowledge and control of power status and performance than previous systems using discrete power management solutions.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/maxlinea ... 00048.html
No hints about deep sleep though. That would be very interesting.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:56 pm
by jamesh
Heater wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:26 pm
tkaiser,
Welcome to Gigabit Ethernet then where passive PoE as you are used to doesn't work any more ;)

GbE uses all 4 cable pairs so 'shoving power into it' is not the greatest idea... already curious whether RPi's PoE HAT will be more expensive than the TL-POE10R we usually use with GbE and SBCs...
Do what?

If I can't just hang the Pi off an ethernet cable with PoE shoved up it and have it work, without any expense, bulk,complication of a PoE board on the Pi then the whole idea seems kind of pointless.
The circuitry for PoE is expensive, if we added it to every base Pi, then the cost WOULD increase, for EVERYONE. So lets say 1% of buyers need PoE. At 5M a year, that's 950k Pi's with unnecessary circuitry on that the buyers have paid for. Lets say its costs $2 for the parts (I have no idea, its probably a lot more), if the prices stays at $35 we have spent $1.9M on parts that are never used. If we pass the cost on then 950k people per year have paid $2 more for their Pi than they needed to.

Daughter board is the way to go. Only to people who need it pay for it.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:59 pm
by tkaiser
Heater wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:26 pm
If I can't just hang the Pi off an ethernet cable with PoE shoved up it and have it work, without any expense, bulk,complication of a PoE board on the Pi then the whole idea seems kind of pointless.
Again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_ove ... ng_devices

With GbE only IEEE 802.3af or IEEE 802.3at are possible any more which requires exactly what you called 'expense, bulk,complication of a PoE board on the Pi' :)

Passive PoE with those cheap injectors/splitters is limited to Fast Ethernet max. Since the performance gains with LAN7515 are pretty low I'm clearly staying with RPi 3, Fast Ethernet and passive PoE :)

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:01 pm
by LeMoog
Regarding MPG2 hardware/codec support, will this be enabled on all P3B+ since last of MPEG2 patents expired?

Might be a nice little advantage for P3B+ over P3B

see: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/1 ... g2_patent/

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:03 pm
by hippy
tkaiser wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:11 pm
GbE uses all 4 cable pairs so 'shoving power into it' is not the greatest idea...
For GbE I believe the PoE power is phantom; both power and data on the same wires.

I imagine it is this, and also having to accept non-GbE connections with power on unused pairs which makes things complicated and potentially expensive, why there's going to be a PoE HAT and the circuitry is not likely to be fitted to the Pi board itself any time soon.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:05 pm
by hippy
PiGraham wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:55 pm
No hints about deep sleep though. That would be very interesting.
As would Wake-On-LAN.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:06 pm
by mikerr
Raspberry Paul wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 pm
Is the POE adapter actually available? I can't find it for sale anywhere and also can't find any pictures of it

Raspi.tv says "new header connector (labelled PoE) which attaches to another new official Raspberry Pi product – a power over ethernet board. This board will be available on launch day"
https://blog.hackster.io/the-new-raspbe ... 23de8a8f5f

Farnell have it listed at $25 :

http://cpc.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi ... dp/SC14884

while that seems expensive to me, its not available until April/May and price may change ?
it also blocks up all the gpio, so I'd hope it also gets a passthrough header eventually.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:10 pm
by Heater
tkaiser,
Thanks. I have been aware of that page for a long time though.

Thing is, there are lot's of PoE standard specs. Then there are lot's of devices that can use PoE that don't conform to any of those specs!

If there is a way to bodge passive PoE into the Pi then I'm happy.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:15 pm
by midol
why no USB3??? Lotsa fast devices would benefit
archive shows requests back to 2014, user satisfaction anywhere on the design list?

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:18 pm
by VeryNoob
Does the new power management setup have the ability to turn off the pi? So if you Sudo shutdown it drops into super low power mode? And maybe short the reset header to turn it back on?

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:20 pm
by scotty101
midol wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:15 pm
why no USB3??? Lotsa fast devices would benefit
archive shows requests back to 2014, user satisfaction anywhere on the design list?
Some people are never happy. You can't have everything. This is an incremental update using the same SoC repackaged :evil:

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:21 pm
by tkaiser
Heater wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:10 pm
Thing is, there are lot's of PoE standard specs. Then there are lot's of devices that can use PoE that don't conform to any of those specs!
Sure, but it's really that easy: as soon as there's Gigabit Ethernet involved (all 4 cable pairs used) then it's over with el cheapo PoE and only standards conforming and expensive PoE is possible any more. And honestly the $25 for the PoE HAT are what I expected (more expensive than what we use today: TP-Link's TL-POE10R that is of course even more bulky but also able to generate optional 9V or 12V)

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:21 pm
by DougieLawson
VeryNoob wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:18 pm
Does the new power management setup have the ability to turn off the pi? So if you Sudo shutdown it drops into super low power mode? And maybe short the reset header to turn it back on?
No. It works exactly like every other Raspberry.

You can short the RUN header to pull the /RESET line on the processor. That will wake it from a shutdown state. DO NOT hit the RUN header when Linux is booted, you may corrupt your SDCard by doing that.

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:23 pm
by 6by9
LeMoog wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:01 pm
Regarding MPG2 hardware/codec support, will this be enabled on all P3B+ since last of MPEG2 patents expired?

Might be a nice little advantage for P3B+ over P3B

see: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/1 ... g2_patent/
Previously covered, eg viewtopic.php?f=67&t=201449 and https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware/issues/939
Correctly stated in the article:
The company that had the patents wrapped up for licensing, MPEG LA, told the world the last US patent expired on 13 February here.
The US isn't the only country in the world - patents still exist in other regions, namely Malaysia and the Philippines. Unless we prohibit sales of Pis into those regions, then there are licence fees to pay.