W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:41 am

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:36 pm
Now can we stop this, and instead discuss how many Pink Ponies fit on a 40nm (or 28nm, or ...) trace....
As many as want to. Next question.

ejolson
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:24 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
By flipping the Silicon, the chip connections are no longer in the same places they were...at least, they aren't unless a mirror image operation was also carried out, and we have heard nothing about *that* being done.
I vote for the flipping being compensated by a mirror image in the silicon. Keeping the pin outs in the same locations is almost a necessity for a legacy part. I wonder what the real story is.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:09 am

ejolson wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:24 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
By flipping the Silicon, the chip connections are no longer in the same places they were...at least, they aren't unless a mirror image operation was also carried out, and we have heard nothing about *that* being done.
I vote for the flipping being compensated by a mirror image in the silicon. Keeping the pin outs in the same locations is almost a necessity for a legacy part. I wonder what the real story is.
Nobody is talking about flipping the GPIO and other physical pins, they're talking about the connection between SoC and the board.

In any case, the whole point is moot. If you want a Pi2b+, rip the wifi/bluetooth chip off yourself and you're probably going to be happy enough.
User experiencing technical difficulties.

LuisMateo
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 am

Hello, on the new RPI 3b+ , Is the wifi heatsink an antenna?

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bensimmo
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:23 am

LuisMateo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 am
Hello, on the new RPI 3b+ , Is the wifi heatsink an antenna?
The silver Raspberry bit?
That's a container to modularise it (or whatever the legal term is).
The antenna is then funny circuit bit to the left of it (with gpio pins at the top)
Made in UK near it on the topside and runs a bit under the black connector.
Turn it over and all the other text is written over it.

jamesh
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:46 am

OK, no more talk on the 2B+ stuff above please - this is a 3B+ thread. Start new thread if you wish, but keep it off this thread.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

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TimG
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:19 am

ejolson wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:24 am
I vote for the flipping being compensated by a mirror image in the silicon. Keeping the pin outs in the same locations is almost a necessity for a legacy part. I wonder what the real story is.
The components under the CPU have (roughly) the same layout as previously, so I reckon you must be right.

hippy
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:01 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
The bigger issue here is that the actual Silicon chip has been "flipped". That is, it is in the package upside down compared to the old package ... By flipping the Silicon, the chip connections are no longer in the same places they were...at least, they aren't unless a mirror image operation was also carried out, and we have heard nothing about *that* being done.
The few SoC pins I did check on the 3B+ schematic seem to be in the same place as they were on the 3B so the notion of simply having 'flipped the silicon' does not seem to be correct.

Flipped and mirrored seems the most likely option to me, building layers of silicon downwards rather than upwards.

Just because they haven't said something was done does not mean it wasn't. There seems to be a lot of extrapolation as to what was done from a few throwaway comments on how better heat dissipation was achieved. We are all just guessing.

jamesh
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:14 pm

I believe the chip itself its pretty much exactly the same, its the packaging that has changed. ie the thin gold wires than connect the silicon to the package pins (BGA) are rerouted since the silicon is the other way up in the package.

Or something like that. Might be some metal layer changes to make that happen (easy to do), but not, I think, anything in the silicon itself (difficult to do).

Next time I see someone I'll try and find out more.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

jdb
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:21 pm

The silicon was mirrored and the top metal layers of the wafer were altered slightly.

Bond pads (where wires would have connected) are turned into "bumps" that solder on to the chip substrate - the interposer that goes between the silicon and the PCB underneath. The top metal layers were modified to add power/ground bumps over the ARM CPUs and in a few other important places so that the path that current has to take to get to the power-hungry areas of the chip is as short as possible.

The key feature of the flip-chip design is that the parasitic inductance on the power/ground connections is much less - meaning voltage droops a lot less when under load.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:20 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:23 am
LuisMateo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 am
Hello, on the new RPI 3b+ , Is the wifi heatsink an antenna?
The silver Raspberry bit?
That's a container to modularise it (or whatever the legal term is).
The antenna is then funny circuit bit to the left of it (with gpio pins at the top)
Made in UK near it on the topside and runs a bit under the black connector.
Turn it over and all the other text is written over it.
The antenna is the dimly seen triangle embedded in the PCB. It where there is no conductor in that particular layer. It's a "cavity antenna", just like the Pi0W.

The shiny bit is an RF shield.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:24 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:21 pm
The silicon was mirrored and the top metal layers of the wafer were altered slightly.

Bond pads (where wires would have connected) are turned into "bumps" that solder on to the chip substrate - the interposer that goes between the silicon and the PCB underneath. The top metal layers were modified to add power/ground bumps over the ARM CPUs and in a few other important places so that the path that current has to take to get to the power-hungry areas of the chip is as short as possible.

The key feature of the flip-chip design is that the parasitic inductance on the power/ground connections is much less - meaning voltage droops a lot less when under load.
Thank you for that information.

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davidcoton
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:11 pm

+1.
While in one sense the info is not important to users, I for one find it fascinating to discover what can and has be done.
Thank you for the work itself and for the insight.
"Thanks for saving my life." See https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1327656#p1327656
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drgeoff
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:26 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:21 pm
The silicon was mirrored ...
Probably relatively quick and easy to do when the design is done with a high level tool. Long gone are the days of taping out layouts on clear plastic sheets.

_matteo
Posts: 3
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm

Hi,

I'm a total noob on the subject but I've been excited by all the possible usage of the PI.

Now I want to try by myself, starting from a basic media station / retropie console.

I would like to purchase the last version of raspberry. Since it has been released a week ago and I cannot find any pre-packaged kits, what should I check to know if a case is compatible?

Thanks a lot for your support!!

Matteo

jamesh
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Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:30 pm

_matteo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm
Hi,

I'm a total noob on the subject but I've been excited by all the possible usage of the PI.

Now I want to try by myself, starting from a basic media station / retropie console.

I would like to purchase the last version of raspberry. Since it has been released a week ago and I cannot find any pre-packaged kits, what should I check to know if a case is compatible?

Thanks a lot for your support!!

Matteo
The official Pi case is DEFINITELY compatible! So I recommend that one!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:48 pm

_matteo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm
Hi,

I'm a total noob on the subject but I've been excited by all the possible usage of the PI.

Now I want to try by myself, starting from a basic media station / retropie console.

I would like to purchase the last version of raspberry. Since it has been released a week ago and I cannot find any pre-packaged kits, what should I check to know if a case is compatible?

Thanks a lot for your support!!

Matteo
Why a kit ? Depending on where you reside you should be able to buy...

RPi 3B+
Official PSU
Official Case
Quality SD Card

..from one place:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/
Adieu

alphanumeric
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:19 pm

Pimoroni have kits, https://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/raspberry-pi Other retailers likely do too.

_matteo
Posts: 3
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:33 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:48 pm
_matteo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm
Hi,

I'm a total noob on the subject but I've been excited by all the possible usage of the PI.

Now I want to try by myself, starting from a basic media station / retropie console.

I would like to purchase the last version of raspberry. Since it has been released a week ago and I cannot find any pre-packaged kits, what should I check to know if a case is compatible?

Thanks a lot for your support!!

Matteo
Why a kit ? Depending on where you reside you should be able to buy...

RPi 3B+
Official PSU
Official Case
Quality SD Card

..from one place:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/
Thanks for your help!
In Italy Amazon seems to be the best way.

I was looking at this but to be sure of the compatibility I will go with the official case. https://www.amazon.it/dp/B01N4BLIKS/ref ... SAbGBF3X38

What do you think about heat sinks? Are they essential?

Thanks and regards

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 17423
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:07 pm

_matteo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:33 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:48 pm
_matteo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm
Hi,

I'm a total noob on the subject but I've been excited by all the possible usage of the PI.

Now I want to try by myself, starting from a basic media station / retropie console.

I would like to purchase the last version of raspberry. Since it has been released a week ago and I cannot find any pre-packaged kits, what should I check to know if a case is compatible?

Thanks a lot for your support!!

Matteo
Why a kit ? Depending on where you reside you should be able to buy...

RPi 3B+
Official PSU
Official Case
Quality SD Card

..from one place:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/
Thanks for your help!
In Italy Amazon seems to be the best way.

I was looking at this but to be sure of the compatibility I will go with the official case. https://www.amazon.it/dp/B01N4BLIKS/ref ... SAbGBF3X38

What do you think about heat sinks? Are they essential?

Thanks and regards

The RPi 3B+ has better heat dissipation so heatsinks likely not required and ideally you should use the Official PSU:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbe ... le-now-35/

http://it.farnell.com/buy-raspberry-pi
Adieu

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jbeale
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:01 am

Just got my 3B+ in the mail. It came a lot faster after the order than the original Pi 1B did, back in 2012 :-).
Question: I guess it's "no-clean" and doesn't affect operation, but should there be this much flux residue on the backside?
Photo: https://photos.app.goo.gl/3FuGlU2RV1Soa26k2

MaxVMH
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:46 am

Right now I have a Pi 3B as webserver (Apache/PHP/MariaDB). It works great but I couldn’t resist buying a Pi 3B+. I’m looking forward to set up the Pi 3B+ as an Apache/PHP webserver and using my Pi 3B as a MariaDB server.

I ordered mine on monday, asked for delayed delivery (wasn’t home on tuesday) so it should arrive today (wednesday) :)
Webserver stack: 2x Pi 3B | 1x Pi 3B+ ||| Pi Zero W for fooling around

Working on a soccer prediction web app:
https://github.com/MaxVMH/mijnscore
Attempt at writing up-to-date tutorials on making a Raspberry Pi webserver:
http://blog.mijnscore.be/

k-pi
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:31 am

Well, my new Rpi3B+ came yesterday, in a cardboard box, (no bag), & works perfectly - loving being able to use 5G for my wifi connection, seems to make it a lot faster online, (compared to my RPi3B on 2G). :D

Edit: Forgot to mention, USB boot setup out of the box is working great. 8-)

MaxVMH
Posts: 113
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:30 am

MaxVMH wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:46 am
I ordered mine on monday, asked for delayed delivery (wasn’t home on tuesday) so it should arrive today (wednesday) :)
It just arrived :)
k-pi wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:31 am
Well, my new Rpi3B+ came yesterday, in a cardboard box, (no bag)
When I ordered my first Raspberry Pi 3B it came in a paper bag (inside a cardboard box of course). My Raspberry Pi Zero W and second Raspberry 3B just came without wrap or bag (but still in a cardboard box of course). I sometimes hear people talking about anti-static bags. Maybe that's for when they ship by plane? Or they come from the other manufacturer?
MaxVMH wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:46 am
Edit: Forgot to mention, USB boot setup out of the box is working great. 8-)
Yes, this is awesome since my only means to write an SD card is through my camera :lol:
Webserver stack: 2x Pi 3B | 1x Pi 3B+ ||| Pi Zero W for fooling around

Working on a soccer prediction web app:
https://github.com/MaxVMH/mijnscore
Attempt at writing up-to-date tutorials on making a Raspberry Pi webserver:
http://blog.mijnscore.be/

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jbeale
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Very happy to hear USB boot is working well. Is there any provision for handling the case of more than one USB device connected at once, or does it fail if the first enumerated USB mass-storage device is not bootable?

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