Gumik
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm really looking forward to playing with the raspberry Pi. I would also like to get one in order to make an XBMC box and was wondering if it can handle full blu-ray playback, or full blu-ray rips or is it too much ?

Thanks in advance,

Gumik

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meltwater
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:35 pm

From the demo videos, the GPU can handle it 1080p etc, but you will have to handle the legal side of BluRay playback/ripping yourself I believe (apparently a long running thing with linux in general, as BluRay needs licencing etc, so plenty of other places to find info about it).
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Gumik
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:22 pm

Thanks for your answer. Yes I know it can handle 1080p but there is a world between a 1080p trailer which is heavily compressed and a full blu-ray with a really high bitrate. What do you mean about legal side of Blu-ray playback/ripping ? XBMC can playback blu-ray on linux.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Gumik said:


Thanks for your answer. Yes I know it can handle 1080p but there is a world between a 1080p trailer which is heavily compressed and a full blu-ray with a really high bitrate. What do you mean about legal side of Blu-ray playback/ripping ? XBMC can playback blu-ray on linux.


I can't be sure (only going from what I read) but the GPU is powerful enough (it's a media player SoC, as used in the Roku media player I believe).  I'll let a beta board owner confirm it though, as clearly I can't.

I'm no expert on this either, so perhaps I am wrong, but you need a licensed product to decode commercial BluRay's legally (otherwise you are breaking copy-protection).  As far as I know, XBMC has to use ripped content without DRM before playing or use a licensed program such as PowerDVD.  For home recorded BluRay discs, I've no idea if the same DRM is applied or not, it may well depend on the source content.

Again, others will no doubt have more info.
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Gumik
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:57 pm


I can"t be sure (only going from what I read) but the GPU is powerful enough (it"s a media player SoC, as used in the Roku media player I believe).  I"ll let a beta board owner confirm it though, as clearly I can"t.


Oh nice to know, I'll look into it.


I"m no expert on this either, so perhaps I am wrong, but you need a licensed product to decode commercial BluRay"s legally (otherwise you are breaking copy-protection).  As far as I know, XBMC has to use ripped content without DRM before playing or use a licensed program such as PowerDVD.  For home recorded BluRay discs, I"ve no idea if the same DRM is applied or not, it may well depend on the source content.


Yes I think you're totally right. I thought the new XBMC version could read blu-ray on linux but it doesn't seem to be the case.

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jojopi
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:56 pm

Also, BD players are required to support both H.264 and VC-1.  I have seen nothing to indicate that the Pi will support VC-1.  (The GPU is probably capable but the Foundation may wish to avoid any additional patent licenses for redundant codecs.)

I do not know what percentage of BDs actually use VC-1.

Manabu
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:02 pm

meltwater said:

I can"t be sure (only going from what I read) but the GPU is powerful enough (it"s a media player SoC, as used in the Roku media player I believe).  I"ll let a beta board owner confirm it though, as clearly I can"t.
Yeah, many people are interested in the level of suport for H.264 decoding. Up to what bitrate, what level, what DPB, what profile/features? Like, Tegra 2 that says it can decode "1080p H.264", but that can't even handle properly some 720p main profile files ( weightp), let alone blu-ray .m2ts or common blu-ray rips.

meltwater said:

I"m no expert on this either, so perhaps I am wrong, but you need a licensed product to decode commercial BluRay"s legally (otherwise you are breaking copy-protection).  As far as I know, XBMC has to use ripped content without DRM before playing or use a licensed program such as PowerDVD.  For home recorded BluRay discs, I"ve no idea if the same DRM is applied or not, it may well depend on the source content.

Again, others will no doubt have more info.


Well, it depends if it is illegal in your country to break copy-protection. And even then you can question it under the premises of Fair-Use (or whatever it is called in a given country). I don't think there will ever be a commercial BluRay player for raspberry pi.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:56 pm

Manabu said:





Yeah, many people are interested in the level of suport for H.264 decoding. Up to what bitrate, what level, what DPB, what profile/features? Like, Tegra 2 that says it can decode "1080p H.264", but that can't even handle properly some 720p main profile files ( weightp), let alone blu-ray .m2ts or common blu-ray rips.


I'm just trying to find out what information can be released about This, but as a teaser, i don't think comparing it to the Tegra 2 does the 2835 any favours!
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Manabu
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:06 pm

JamesH said:


I'm just trying to find out what information can be released about This, but as a teaser, i don't think comparing it to the Tegra 2 does the 2835 any favours!



Sure! I hope so. I was only pointing out how vague can be "1080p H.264 decoding support".

Well, the things I asked are all information that I could find out after a couple of tests once I get the board. But it would be nice to know in advance, and save me the work, as this information sure is available somewhere.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:12 pm

Manabu said:


JamesH said:


I'm just trying to find out what information can be released about This, but as a teaser, i don't think comparing it to the Tegra 2 does the 2835 any favours!


Sure! I hope so. I was only pointing out how vague can be "1080p H.264 decoding support".

Well, the things I asked are all information that I could find out after a couple of tests once I get the board. But it would be nice to know in advance, and save me the work, as this information sure is available somewhere.


Well, I have all the information but I am not sure what I am allowed to release, once I know I will write it up here.
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:29 pm

The GPU can decode and display main profile level 4.1 H.264 1080p30 content with ease.

However that's probably not what you are asking.

Keeping the GPU fed with content at 40Mbit/s is tricky. It's got to come from sdcard, USB, or network.

Due to licensing issues, the GPU will likely not decode the audio. The ARM is capable of decoding the audio, but six channel audio decode takes a fair amount of its processing power.

Presumably you want subtitles rendered? Some nice GUI overlay? There's also demuxing the container file.

So, the GPU side - no problem.

The ARM side - needs to be done with care.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:35 pm

So what Dom is saying is that 40MBit/s is perfectly feasible for the GPU. And that is above standard blu-ray bitrates.

Take that Tegra 2 (and indeed 3).
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:23 pm

So the video is ok but what about the audio?

If you want a HTPC you may well like to have the audio 'pass-thru' via HDMI for a receiver (ONKYO TX-NR609) to decode and amplify.  This allows the receiver to decode the Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 or more likely for blu-ray Dolby Digital HD and DTS Master 7.1.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:26 pm

Bluray is 1080p Level 4.1 High Profile. A subset of High Profile, but Main Profile won't do. And the video bitrate can get up to 40Mbps for the video (I have one of those).

I hope that an external HD (the most probable source for a very high bitrate video, besides ethernet) will be able to stream 40+mbps via the USB bus. I haven't thought about the ARM core being the botleneck, but yeah, this might prove to be a problem...

Yes, some nice subtitles rendered by libass and overlayed  over the video would be very nice to have.

And this made me remember one question that was asked in another forum: why the trailer in the demonstration video of raspberry pi is being launched from command line? Is this a choice, a current software limitation, or a permanent limitation?

Gumik
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:05 am

These are very interesting comments ! Nice to know that the GPU has the power to decode Blu-ray. I just read that at first the hardware decodding will be available in a home-made player and then in long term maybe gstreamer.

Unfortunately that means XBMC ( mplayer ) will never be a viable option for blu-ray playback since it won't be supported ?

Will then your home-made player be able to directly play Blu-ray ISO ( like XBMC by launching the movie directly ) and handle subtitles correctly ?

About the audio part, in the FAQ It is written AUDIO JACK, is it an analog or optical jack ? Can something like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Optica.....pd_cp_ce_1 be used to send DD and DTS through for the AV receiver to decode it ?

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:53 am

Manabu said:


Bluray is 1080p Level 4.1 High Profile. A subset of High Profile, but Main Profile won't do. And the video bitrate can get up to 40Mbps for the video (I have one of those).

I hope that an external HD (the most probable source for a very high bitrate video, besides ethernet) will be able to stream 40+mbps via the USB bus. I haven't thought about the ARM core being the botleneck, but yeah, this might prove to be a problem...

Yes, some nice subtitles rendered by libass and overlayed  over the video would be very nice to have.

And this made me remember one question that was asked in another forum: why the trailer in the demonstration video of raspberry pi is being launched from command line? Is this a choice, a current software limitation, or a permanent limitation?


Dom's numbers are not the full story. It can go up to 50MBits/s High profile I believe. The GPU is not the bottleneck - getting the data to the GPU is the bottleneck. The GPU is also quite capable of multiple layers of graphics on top of the video, including subtitles. Doing lots of 3D at the same time might be a struggle at high bitrates, you may start hitting memory bandwidth issues. That's pretty extreme though.

We will be providing a player whilst a decent library is developed to link with the standard players out there - there is a graphical one and a command line one, not sure which will be provided.
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:54 am

Gumik said:


About the audio part, in the FAQ It is written AUDIO JACK, is it an analog or optical jack ? Can something like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Optica.....pd_cp_ce_1 be used to send DD and DTS through for the AV receiver to decode it ?


Yep the audio is analogue.  The adaptor you link to is specific for supported hardware, I wouldn't expect you'd get enough control of the audio output in order to change it into a suitable digital signal to use that.

However, there is an I2S audio digtial output via one of the GPIO pins, but not sure what additional hardware is needed for optical out, but there are several threads and people wanting to do this, so hopefully it'll be possible in time.

Alternatively, the easier option (potentially) is to use a USB soundcard with direct digital output, as long as the drivers are available it should work.
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:57 am

Gumik said:


These are very interesting comments ! Nice to know that the GPU has the power to decode Blu-ray. I just read that at first the hardware decodding will be available in a home-made player and then in long term maybe gstreamer.

Unfortunately that means XBMC ( mplayer ) will never be a viable option for blu-ray playback since it won't be supported ?

Will then your home-made player be able to directly play Blu-ray ISO ( like XBMC by launching the movie directly ) and handle subtitles correctly ?

About the audio part, in the FAQ It is written AUDIO JACK, is it an analog or optical jack ? Can something like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Optica.....pd_cp_ce_1 be used to send DD and DTS through for the AV receiver to decode it ?


Linux doesn't support actual Blu-ray decoding. If you have a ripped file it can play that. The supplied player won't support Blu-ray - that would cost a lot in licencing if nothing else! The audio jack is analog, and fairly low quality. Best quality is HDMI out. As Dom said, to avoid (very expensive) licencing fees, we cannot do the audio decode on the GPU, so it would need to be done on the Arm and passed out to the GPU for HDMI. Or passed out of the analog audio output. Not sure yet how that will be managed.
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:41 am


Yep the audio is analogue.  The adaptor you link to is specific for supported hardware, I wouldn"t expect you"d get enough control of the audio output in order to change it into a suitable digital signal to use that.

However, there is an I2S audio digtial output via one of the GPIO pins, but not sure what additional hardware is needed for optical out, but there are several threads and people wanting to do this, so hopefully it"ll be possible in time.

Alternatively, the easier option (potentially) is to use a USB soundcard with direct digital output, as long as the drivers are available it should work.


Okay thanks for these infos. I thought of USB soundcard but it cost the price of the R-Pi or higher so that's kind of keeping me back.


Linux doesn't support actual Blu-ray decoding. If you have a ripped file it can play that. The supplied player won"t support Blu-ray – that would cost a lot in licencing


Won't support Blu-ray, but what about a Blu-ray ISO file ? I'm confused because when you say "If you have a ripped file it can play that" : yes Linux does but I don't know if you're still talking about Linux or the supplied player. Anyhow if the library you're developing could be used by Mplayer, It would be awesome and would mean a great deal for everyone looking for a mediacenter if XBMC is within reach.


The audio jack is analog, and fairly low quality. Best quality is HDMI out. As Dom said, to avoid (very expensive) licencing fees, we cannot do the audio decode on the GPU, so it would need to be done on the Arm and passed out to the GPU for HDMI. Or passed out of the analog audio output. Not sure yet how that will be managed.


Let's say we take the higher form available, DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD. I'm not familiar with it but would it require a heavy work from the CPU to just send it through HDMI for the AV receiver to decode it ? Since it's passthrough I think it wouldn't but as I said I'm not familiar with it. I wish it had a S/PDIF output but we can't have everything, it's already the greatest product one can dream for the price.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:23 pm

I believe an ISO files is a dump of the disk. This means it is still encrypted. The Raspi will NOT decrypt the file. Linux is not yet capable of decrypting the file.

Once it's decrypted, then the RasPi can play it.
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 pm

A BD image is typically DRM free, as is the plain folder structure. IIRC, BD and DVD DRM differ in the point they are applied, so an 'encrypted disc image' is not really possible without a lot of work. You either have a plain disc image or a image without any video data at all (or just an error message).

On Audio decoding: Is it possible to pass through the raw audio stream (usually referred to at 'bitstream output') without decoding it to LPCM (raw audio data) and thus bypass the licensing restrictions, or is the GPU even touching the audio bitsteam a licensing nightmare? SPDIF would only be feasible for stereo LPCM, or if the audio was decoded then re-encoded on-board (requiring another encoding license in addition to decoding) due to the bitrate limitations of SPDIF.

An old Archos PMP I owned had an interesting take on the decoder licensing issue: the player had all the physical and software gubbins needed to decode certain filetypes when sold, but the software key to allow you to use them was sold separately to cover the cost of the license. With the multiple-thousand-run scales the RasPi is aiming for
(and commensurate clout for negotiating unusually licensing deals), might this be an option to allow those who want to use it for media playback to do so, without raising the cost for everyone?

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:54 pm

So, if you have managed to make or get an BD ISO image (all 40GB of it), then its has already been decrypted? Or have I missed something?
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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:01 pm

Pretty much. While you can accidentally make an unplayable-wthout-mucking-about encrypted image of a DVD, with a BD the disc imaging software will almost certainly just flag up a "nope, ain't happening" error when you try without doing any decrypting. The "drag all the files from the disc to a folder" method will not work either, again unless you are already doing something to decrypt the disc.

AnyDVD-HD, the most popular method to do so, works pretty much transparently in the background so you can do all your imaging and drag & dropping without even knowing the encryption is there.

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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:40 pm



SPDIF would only be feasible for stereo LPCM, or if the audio was decoded then re-encoded on-board (requiring another encoding license in addition to decoding) due to the bitrate limitations of SPDIF.


Not only stereo LPCM. You can bitstream DTS and Dolby Digital through which should be included in every Blu-ray. Moreover when there is DTS-HD Master Audio it can send the DTS core stream ( which is way more than standard DTS, it's a 1,5 mbits/s track ) and if I'm not mistaken when encounting Dolby TrueHD it sends the Dolby Digital stream. So basically the only things you can't bitstream with SPDIF are "full" DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD, plus LPCM tracks superior to 2 channels.



So, if you have managed to make or get an BD ISO image (all 40GB of it), then its has already been decrypted? Or have I missed something?




Yes already decrypted.




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Re: Can It handle Blu-ray playback ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:57 pm

Why would you want SPDIF rather than HDMI now and in the future for (DTS, DD, DTS M,DD HD etc) audio + video?

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