sithlord2
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When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am

After ending up yet again with a corrupt sd-card, my patience is officially over. I want the Raspberry Foundation to admit their boards destroy sd cards, and I expect them to come up with a solution.

1. It's not a PSU issue.

I'm using a 5V -2.5A psu that came with an official kit.

2. It's not a quality issue of the SD card

Cheap cards will corrupt after a few days. High Quality cards will corrupt after a few weeks. You cannot leave a Rapberry Pi on for a month 24h/24h without corruption. Using high quality cards only delays the inevitable. I've used Sandisk, Duracell, and other well-known manufacturers sd-cards, they all fail in after a few weeks of 24/7 use.

3. It's not related to a specific Pi model

I own the original PI, the Pi 2, Pi 3, and Pi Zero. The only one that didn't fail (yet) is the Pi Zero, but I assume it's only a matter of time. I'm keeping an eye on it.

4. It's a known issue

Google raspberry pi and destroyed sd cards, and you'll get plenty of hits... And the attempts to blame it on the user (it's your sd card, it's your psu...). It's not a user issue, it's time Raspberry Foundation finally gets this.

5. USB boot is not a workaround

Because people with a Pi, Pi Zero and Pi 2 don't have a USB boot option.

Final words

I was hoping I could use the Pi as small linux computer that is suitable for 24/7 use. I now know this will never be the case. If there are alternatives (being able to use the raspberry camera module would be a nice bonus), I would like to know. I'm willing to pay extra, that's not an issue.

I'm just tired of building stuff on a platform that destroys my hardware eventually. I'm about to send the bill of all my sd cards that I spent money on to the Raspberry Foundation and ask for compensation. UK is still a EU country, I live in a EU country, the EU has strict rules about this. You just can't sell hardware that destroys users' stuff and get away with it.

mattmiller
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:32 am

There's 15 million Pis out there so some SD cards are going to get broken - what percentage is up for debate but sounds like you've been very unlucky

IN the early days SD card corruption was a BIG issue but eventually got under control

I've got 4 PiZero around the house that run 24/7 and have been for about 2 years so based on my experience - they seem to be reliable

I also use PiZeroWs on robots and not noticed any issue

Now I only have one Pi3 myself and I don't run that 24/7 365 but it hasn't corrupted SD cards either

In the last 12 months - I've binned one (out of about 12) microSD cards

PS I forgot about the 3 cheap cards I bought from China - they failed very quickly or didn't work in the 1st place - I learnt my lesson - I use a mixture of Samsung,Kingston and SansDisk

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:40 am

mattmiller wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:32 am
There's 15 million Pis out there so some SD cards are going to get broken - what percentage is up for debate but sounds like you've been very unlucky
Wrong, there are over 18 million Pi's!

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DougieLawson
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:50 am

I've run RPis since 2012, all of my machines are powered up 24/365. In all that time I've had one 32GB SDcard go bad and that was before the RPF folks fixed some of the SD handling code in the firmware (bootcode.bin, start.elf etc.)

So your conjecture is false in my case.

If you have a full price SDCard from Sandisk, Toshiba or Kingston (or other well known make) and you have a good quality power supply which delivers a reliable 5.1V @ 2.5A then you won't have any SDCard problems running latest Raspbian Stretch with the current apt-get kernel.

The only rule is shutdown cleanly (sudo shutdown -h or sudo poweroff or click the icon on the taskbar widget), wait for the ten green LED winks before pulling power.
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allfox
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:52 am

I think Google "raspberry pi destroy sd cards" is a bad idea, because Google is so capable that would even give you devil's whisper. You'll almost never feel alone when you ask Google.

How about Google "raspberry pi uptime" instead?

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:58 am

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
Cheap cards will corrupt after a few days. High Quality cards will corrupt after a few weeks. You cannot leave a Rapberry Pi on for a month 24h/24h without corruption.
I have several Pi's of all models all running 24/7 and have been for years.
I find them to be super reliable.
Mostly Samsung cards.

I'd say its user error. See Dougies post about shutting down cleanly.

B.Goode
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:02 am

You cannot leave a Rapberry Pi on for a month 24h/24h without corruption.
I hear your frustration and pain, and clearly - based on other postings to these forums - you are not alone.

But it doesn't help your case to make assertions that can so easily be disproven. I have had an RPi of some model or other running 24 hours a day since mid-2014, about 3.5 years. I have never had a microSD card spontaneously corrupt or go read-only.

gordon77
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:34 am

Some people seem to be unlucky, I've never had a SD card fail in a Pi.

Have you considered a UPS, eg the PICO, to give clean shutdowns in the event of power fails?

Gordon

sithlord2
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am

I always do a clean shutdown, that's not the issue. I always use qualified psu's. Sometimes corruption occured while my pi was running in the middle of the day, suddenly filesystem corruption everywhere, and even e2fsck wouldn't be able to fix it.

I think I went through 4 or 5 corrupted sd cards in one year. These were from well-known vendors, as I already explained.

I'm a Linux System engineer, I managed thousands of servers all around the globe. Not that I want to brag, but I want to make clear I'm certainly not a Linux "noob".

To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?

pcmanbob
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:52 am

I have never had an SD card go read only , still using the same full size SD card in my pi 1B's and one of them ran 24/7 for 2 years and had several un-commanded shutdowns due to power failures and its still good.

When I got my pi B+ had to change to micro SD cards have only ever used Kingston Micro SD cards god 12 of them including the original one from the pi B+ and never had a failure got 2 x pi 2B running 24/7 both writing data on a 2 minute and 15 minute cycle without problems, one using raspberry psu and one using 9v psu with DC-DC converter feeding the pi.

3 of my SD card are used for looking at problems people have here so they are constantly having software install/removed, data written and being re-flashed.

guess I have just been lucky or others are just unlucky.
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mattmiller
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 am

To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues:
We are not claiming, we are stating facts :)
I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
Aah - maybe we are getting to a place where we can square this circle?

My 24/7 ones are running MQTT - turning NeoPixlels off/on depending on cheerlight hashtags or waiting for IR codes to remote relay/transcode IR sighnals around the house

I also use Pi a lot in robots turning motors off and on

So probably not what would be termed "write-heavy" apps

But - I'm no expert on SD cards but AFAIH they wear out - they are not "lifetime" components.

So if your use case is for "write-heavy" applications - then I can see how you could be running into problems

Pi are sold as educational computers for people to mainly use for Python programming exercises

If your running the sort of apps thats making heavy use of sd card - the laws of physics is going to catch up with you

I believe the solution in such cases is to make your file system read-only or use USB/SSD drives

mfa298
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am
To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
Like others here I've not has any real issues (certainly not with the pi2 and pi3), and some of those are comparatively write heavy loads (certainly in terms of iops even if not throughput - lots of small log messages and similar).

I've had some issues on the original pi1s but that's almost certainly down to as card quality.

All my pi2/pi3s run on SanDisk cards bought from reputable suppliers (not just looking for the cheapest options that are more than likely fakes)

Going back to the write heavy then that could easily be the issue (depending on what you call write heavy). If you used those same sd cards in you servers with the same sort of write load then they would likely fail in the same way does that also mean your server is faulty? Or does that mean your using the wrong tool for the job?

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DougieLawson
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:10 pm

For large data volumes the only sane option is chromium plated spinning things in a RAID array.
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asavah
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:13 pm

3 Pi's (B+,2B,3B) have been running 24/7/365 for years, no UPS, good PSUs.
I develop my own hobby linux os, sdcards get fully reimaged _often_, fs is ext4 rw.

Only 1 sdcard (Transcend) went read-only on me in _all_ the time.

Suggestion: stop buying cheap||fake crap sdcards, spend a few quids||bucks more on decent ones (personal preference: samsung and apacer)

kaksi
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:17 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
1. It's not a PSU issue.

I do not count the destroyed cards... 100% of times when the electricity went down.

What about your power line?

gordon77
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:23 pm

Do you get any surges /spikes on the power line? Even the best psus will not stop them getting to your Pi, maybe try a mains filter.

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:23 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am
To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
Its true for me, I do take some steps to reduce the writes, for example /tmp and /var/log as tmpfs, commit=600 on the ext4 mounts, noatime.

SD cards obviously do not have the expected lifetime of an enterprise class SSD. If you are doing excessive writes, use a USB mounted SSD or spinning rust disk, and don't blame the foundation for your poor design.
Last edited by jahboater on Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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bensimmo
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:23 pm

Is this more the SD cards are the issue, you are using them for what they are not designed for and not warrantied for either.
It's the SD cards at fault (I can give you my usage and complete abuse of kids pulling power all the time and say none have gone from big brands from reputable stores, the higher use mine get is sane rapid datalogging and video recording for a short time).

Do you need to move to boot to Solid State/Spinning discs, which they have provided means for (even if some need a small SD card to boot from at the start)?

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allfox
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:28 pm

According to https://wiki.debian.org/SSDOptimization

If you are planning on doing a huge amount of writes (more than 40-50 GB per day), it is advised to avoid SSDs that use TLC NAND.

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jojopi
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:03 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am
To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
If you acknowledge that the problems result from heavy writing, then I do not see how it could be the Raspberry Pi "boards" that are at fault, as opposed to the software you were running.

Did you track how much data you were actually writing, at the block level (vmstat, sar -b, tune2fs -l |grep Lifetime, etc)?

One difference between continuous use in something like a dashcam and in a Pi is the choice of filesystem. I would be inclined to the drop the ext4 journal completely if I expected a lot of writes. e2fsck takes very little time on an SD card anyway. Neither FAT nor exFAT employ journalling by default.

klricks
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:48 pm

Since 2012 I have had 3 issues with SD card corruption. All fixed by re imaging.

1- Not powering off correctly (2012)
2 - Experimenting with overclocking
3 - Ran out of disk space during an upgrade

I run at least one RPi 24/7/365.
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated Raspbian Stretch w/ Desktop OS.

sithlord2
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm

Okay, I had a few moments to relax, and allow me to apologize first. I was quite pissed off, as an important component of my home automation system broke down (it was on the corrupted sd-card that was in my Pi 3).

I'm going to start with a fresh batch of high-quality sd-cards (and usb on the Pi 3), and do some more testing.

It's just that after 4 or 5 broken sd cards, you start to question things.

For those running 24/7 Pi's, can you tell me which manufacturer and models you are using?

Sorry, my frustration got the upper hand here... :oops:

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:26 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm
For those running 24/7 Pi's, can you tell me which manufacturer and models you are using?
Mostly Samsung EVO, or EVO Plus now.
I see these appear to be available with a minimum size of 32GB now (on Amazon anyway).

If heavy usage is your problem, you could perhaps:-

1) boot off USB disk (agreed, thats a problem on old Pi's).

2) mount your SD card read-only, do the initial boot off it, but run the system from any disk.

3) mount the SD card as normal, and just do the heavy data I/O to the external disk.

The OS doesn't write very much to the card, or it would affect everyone. So it is presumably an app you are running thats writing heavily to the SD card. In which case the easiest option (3) should help.

As I said in a prior post, you can do things like add commit=600 say to any ext4 mounts to flush dirty blocks every 10 minutes instead of every 5 seconds. This reduces writes and increases the performance (it allows delayed allocation to work properly). But obviously you are at greater risk on power cuts. Mount /tmp and /var/log as tmpfs (in virtual memory).

Perhaps get your app to write to a tmpfs disk and you periodically save the data to a real disk.

hippy
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:17 pm

Long up-time may be what avoids corrupting the cards. Long up-time doesn't indicate anything about other use cases.

Just pointing out the logical fallacy rather than apportioning blame.

Pi's can indeed have long up-times, claims to the contrary are not correct.

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bensimmo
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:26 pm

As above perhaps alter the way you write to the cards, I assume it all data logging.
I know for our fast datalogging with rockets and other things I have it setup in the program that the looking to RAM is collected then after so many lines or time it will write it all out to disk.
Not only does this mean it can get on with other things, but also I hope look after the SD card better. Wether that last part is true and just pie in the sky doesn't actually matter to me. ;-)
Also as a thought, can you write to the 'cloud' or a local network? For backup and/ or as a file server instead of a local drive.

Samsung EVO and particularly the EVO+, though there is now a newer EVO Plus and I've not tried them.
Sold by Amazon, from Amazon not one of the third party companies.
Though a quick card test to see if it can write to all the card (see checking fakes) if you buy from anywhere else.

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