mattmiller
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:57 pm

The $8 boards run quite well.
Could direct us to $8 boards that "runs quite well"

I played with a few (orange ones) last year and gave up - mainly to do with very little GPIO pin Python software support and VERY flaky WiFi

If things have changed and we have an alternative to a PiZeroW I'd love to know about it

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 pm

bitbank wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm
ulink wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:44 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:19 pm
Not really, very few competitors benefit from this, if any. There's no money in it for them at this level of pricing.
That's right at the $5 level (at which I can't buy more than one piece...).
But there ARE (more than one...) rpi zero like parts using quad core cpu's at the $7...$8 level. I think only a few advantages are left against the allwinner crap these days: Raspbian (mainline kernel) and the big community.

Unfortunately, things are changing quickly.
Actually, that advantage is now gone too. Armbian (a community supported Debian Linux project) is shipping a newer Linux kernel than RPI uses (4.14) for a large collection of non-RPI ARM SBCs. 4.14 includes support for ARM SoCs (including Allwinner chips). The $8 boards run quite well. There are many factors to consider when choosing your hardware. For non-educational purposes, the ARM SBC marketplace is full of good options besides the RPF. I'm not saying that the Chinese vendors don't use unfair practices, but the quality and support are less of an issue with many.
Latest bleeding edge Pi kernel is 4.14 if you want to compile it yourself (or rpi-update? not sure) We tend to update fairly frequently.

Most Chinese sellers provide no support at all, it's simply not possible at these low price levels. Knock up a design, throw it out to the market, leave it, knock up the next design, throw it out on the market. Backward compatible? Who needs it. FCC compliance? Well, they've heard of it.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. As someone once said.

There's are reasons we have sold over 18M devices, and are still selling by the truckload. And we are not sitting on our laurels - there some interesting stuff in the pipeline, over the next few years.
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mattmiller
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:04 pm

I find that hard to believe or that one would have to police it. There are just a handful of official retailers and presumably they are all trustworthy and would generally do what the Foundation asked of them. If it were a condition of a partnership agreement then they could generally be trusted to abide by it.
+1

I think its fair to say that between RPi and the retailers there is/has been ambiguity and since everyone are professionals, its hard to imagine that this was an accidental error that has been missed for 2 years

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:26 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:57 pm
The $8 boards run quite well.
Could direct us to $8 boards that "runs quite well"

I played with a few (orange ones) last year and gave up - mainly to do with very little GPIO pin Python software support and VERY flaky WiFi

If things have changed and we have an alternative to a PiZeroW I'd love to know about it
Tried to send you a PM about this because it's going off-topic, but you've disabled PMs :(
Contact me for more info...
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:35 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:04 pm
I think its fair to say that between RPi and the retailers there is/has been ambiguity and since everyone are professionals, its hard to imagine that this was an accidental error that has been missed for 2 years
They abided by the one per customer rule previously - and some retailers apparently still do - so perhaps they have simply misunderstood the situation. A quick phone call or email should clear things up, let them know what the rule is, rectify the situation.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:53 pm

A quick phone call or email should clear things up, let them know what the rule is, rectify the situation.
Stop pulling the tiger's tail :)

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:42 pm

ulink wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:44 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:19 pm
Not really, very few competitors benefit from this, if any. There's no money in it for them at this level of pricing.
That's right at the $5 level (at which I can't buy more than one piece...).
But there ARE (more than one...) rpi zero like parts using quad core cpu's at the $7...$8 level. I think only a few advantages are left against the allwinner crap these days: Raspbian (mainline kernel) and the big community.

Unfortunately, things are changing quickly.
An ad for this: http://www.newark.com/beagleboard/bb-po ... 91720&cmp= popped up today. Note that the SoC is pretty close to the one on the Pi0/Pi0W, it lacks at least one major feature of the Pi0/Pi0W (HDMI output), though it has some features the Pi0/Pi0W lack. Beaglebones were, last time I saw actual numbers, the second highest volume sales in the SBC market, running about 5% of Pi sales. And the price on this very small Beagleboard? $25.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:53 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:43 pm
One thing which would be nice to know is if the Foundation has any intention of forcing the 'one per customer' rule on retailers, ending the $5 and $10 zero ' one per order' regime some appear to be running.
I don't think there is a way to do that. It would require a central location with a list of all buyers. That would, in turn, require that the vendors cooperate to the extent of supplying that data to *somebody*. On top of that, at least in the US, it might be considered to be restraint of trade, and--therefore--a violation of Federal law, with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) getting into the act. Indeed, some of the existing practices are questionable as restraint of trade and price fixing.
Last year I indicated myself and some colleagues were thinking of buying direct at the above $5 and $10 prices, re-selling to others in bulk. That was a serious notion but, if retailers are allowing multiple $5 and $10 zero purchases, one per order, that's an obstacle to undertaking such a venture.
You scheme might very well work so long as you can hold the shipping charges down. If, for instance, you could sell Pi0s for $10 each, when you get to two or three of them, it might be cheaper because there would be a single shipping charge, plus the buyer would avoid the need to make multiple orders and wait varying lengths of time for them to arrive.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:00 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:27 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:26 pm
Our official line is one PER CUSTOMER, but we simply don't have the manpower to police it
I find that hard to believe or that one would have to police it. There are just a handful of official retailers and presumably they are all trustworthy and would generally do what the Foundation asked of them. If it were a condition of a partnership agreement then they could generally be trusted to abide by it.
Even if every vendor strictly enforced the "one per customer", simply ordering one from each different vendor would would bypass the constraint to a degree. Then there is Microcenter. If someone lives in reasonable proximity to one of their stores, just walk in periodically and buy one. for cash. How would the store track that? "Gee, you look familiar" is hardly and enforceable sales practice.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:10 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:35 pm
mattmiller wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:04 pm
I think its fair to say that between RPi and the retailers there is/has been ambiguity and since everyone are professionals, its hard to imagine that this was an accidental error that has been missed for 2 years
They abided by the one per customer rule previously - and some retailers apparently still do - so perhaps they have simply misunderstood the situation. A quick phone call or email should clear things up, let them know what the rule is, rectify the situation.
I can only recall one report of a vendor holding the line at one (ever) per customer, and that was quite recent. Prior to that, and the official word to that coming down from On High, the practice was always "one per order". Even when I noted in a Forum thread that vendors were limiting orders to one Pi0 *or* one Pi0W (rather than one of each in the same order), there was nothing said about only one per person...ever. It's been a while since I ordered a Pi0 or Pi0W, but there is--I think--an excellent chance that I could go back to vendors I've used before and place an order and no one would even blink.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:29 pm

As for support and stability.
While it's mentioned up there that other have this support from a community.

How does this extend to industry and beginners?
Surely the largest markets for the Pi ( no idea as no info available afaik).
Beginners want ease of use and ease of learning.
Industry want good support directly from the manufacturers (possibly long term support) with stability of the product and at least reassurance.

How do the others compare for this, not just from tinkerers/advanced makers?

But anyway we have what they give by their rules.
Don't like it, try something else.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:00 pm
Even if every vendor strictly enforced the "one per customer", simply ordering one from each different vendor would would bypass the constraint to a degree.
Absolutely; the best which could be done is one per customer per retailer. It's about doing the best one can, limiting as far as is feasible, not expecting the impossible.

It should be fairly easy to tell if a prior order came in on an account, used the same credit card, was for a customer's home address or delivery address which had already received one. It won't stop everyone from wrangling a second order from the same retailer, won't stop people co-opting others to buy on their behalf, but would cut it down drastically, make it far more difficult to avoid the rule.

After all, what's the point of having a rule if there's no intent to apply it. It just becomes Corporate BS, detached from reality, Fake News.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:57 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:10 pm
I can only recall one report of a vendor holding the line at one (ever) per customer, and that was quite recent.
For the UK: The Pi Hut are enforcing the "One per customer" rule for Zero and Zero W -

https://support.thepihut.com/hc/en-us/a ... y-Pi-Zero-

Pi Supply also say "Please Note: there is a limit of one Pi Zero per customer", and the same for Zero W -

https://www.pi-supply.com/product/raspb ... zero-v1-3/
https://www.pi-supply.com/product/raspberry-pi-zero-w

Pimoroni state "This product is limited to 1 per order" for Zero and Zero W -

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero
https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-w

ModMyPi also state "Maximum 1 Unit Per Order" for Zero and Zero W-

https://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/ra ... ry-pi-zero
https://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/ra ... o-wireless

One doesn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see who's sticking to the "One per customer" rule and who isn't when those who don't are publicly stating they don't.

It shouldn't take much policing either. Simply tell them what the rule is. If two can stick to the rule and enforce it then the other two can just as well.

It doesn't look good for the Foundation if they have retailers who simply won't play by the Foundation's rules. If I had official retailers refusing to play by my rules I'd be telling them I'll be looking for alternative retailers who would. Such a threat would normally be enough to slap a professional business back into line, and good riddance if they won't play by the rules; they wouldn't be the sort of people I'd want to do business with.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:00 pm

One per customer, one per order, who cares really. You can't bulk buy them and order and customer are near enough the same anyway.

There are many laws and rules in the UK that are not enforced or rarely enforced, it's not worth it compared to other more important (to the people enforcing it).
For a start two continuous subscriptions to MagPi get you two ZeroW (previously two Zero's).
That's direct from the Foundation.

You're squabbling over a few quid, it's not as if anyone is loosing out or RPF are seeing them sell 20 odd of them in one go.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:18 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:00 pm
it's not as if anyone is loosing out
Except they are. The business venture I and my friends conceived was to buy multiples at the higher price and re-sell at a higher price to others in bulk. The higher cost offset by reduced postage and convenience than buying multiples individually.

That is win-win all round; for the foundation, those who want bulk, with a small profit in it for us as well. But if people can buy as many as orders can be placed then why would they buy from us at a higher price when they can buy them cheaper over a longer time period ? A re-sell venture isn't viable.

So everyone loses out. The Foundation doesn't get our bulk order at the higher price, people who want to buy bulk in one order can't, and we don't make any profit facilitating that.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:29 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:57 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:10 pm
I can only recall one report of a vendor holding the line at one (ever) per customer, and that was quite recent.
For the UK: The Pi Hut are enforcing the "One per customer" rule for Zero and Zero W -

https://support.thepihut.com/hc/en-us/a ... y-Pi-Zero-

Pi Supply also say "Please Note: there is a limit of one Pi Zero per customer", and the same for Zero W -

https://www.pi-supply.com/product/raspb ... zero-v1-3/
https://www.pi-supply.com/product/raspberry-pi-zero-w
Unless their policies have changed in practice, I am not sure that it means what you think it does. One might consider testing it in practice. And specifically the Pi Hut policy...the stated reason is bogus. The reason *isn't* shortage of supply and hasn't been for pretty much the last year.
One doesn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see who's sticking to the "One per customer" rule and who isn't when those who don't are publicly stating they don't.
You can only tell where the stated policy is "one per order". There is no way to tell if the companies saying "one per customer" really mean what the RPF has said or whether their actual practice is "one per order".
It doesn't look good for the Foundation if they have retailers who simply won't play by the Foundation's rules. If I had official retailers refusing to play by my rules I'd be telling them I'll be looking for alternative retailers who would. Such a threat would normally be enough to slap a professional business back into line, and good riddance if they won't play by the rules; they wouldn't be the sort of people I'd want to do business with.
I think a rather more critical issue here is if the Foundation is attempting to impose a rule that they have no way to enforce. I can think of two better approaches right off... One would be restate the rule as "this is what we would like (but can't enforce)" or if the Foundation arranged with the retailers to only sell a Pi0/Pi0W at the discounted price with a coupon, and the coupons would only be available from the RPF. Accompanying a coupon arrangement it would be a very good idea to announce a "regular price", that is a non-coupon price. Granted this wouldn't have worked out of the gate when there was a genuine shortage.

Note also that there were posts right from the beginning of people buying multiple copies of the MagPi with the Pi0 attached...and nothing was said about it. The whole "one per person" really looks like a post hoc effort to contain demand after it was realized that people really did want multiple Pi0/Pi0W boards and were willing to do whatever it took to get them. In part, the RPF has been a victim of its own success.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:15 am

Just out of interest, how much would people be willing to pay for zero w bought in bulk? But at lower levels than the current bulk limitations? Wondering whether to buy a load and sell on.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:18 am

Don't we already have that in the form of the pre-soldered headers version ?
Pi Zero W is £13.99 and available in quantities of 20

(not actually been in stock for a while though )
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:24 am

mikerr wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:18 am
Don't we already have that in the form of the pre-soldered headers version ?
Pi Zero W is £13.99 and available in quantities of 20

(not actually been in stock for a while though )
Yes, that does appear to be the case. I believe stocks should ramp up imminently.

If you want bulk, then the header version appears to be the way to go.

Just do NOT expect to get bulk at $5 and $10, that is not going to happen.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:15 am
Just out of interest, how much would people be willing to pay for zero w bought in bulk? But at lower levels than the current bulk limitations?
Reading the thread (and some of the similar threads) I was starting to wonder if there's a case for selling bulk packs of Pi0 and Pi0w at whatever the actual price works out to. If there was a standard bulk pack (say 10 units) they could potentially be packaged up like that in the factory to then be sold like that via the various resellers. That should also help minimise handling costs and potentially be more environmentally friendly as well (less packaging needed).

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:44 am

Based on customers currently able to buy 10 Pi Zero W's, one per order, for £121, a bulk purchase of 10 Zero W's at £130 did not seem unreasonable.

That represents an effective £12.70 per item compared to the single £9.60 cost.

I believe people would pay £15 per Zero W for single or bulk quantities. That matches with eBay pricing and ModMyPi pricing for Zero W's with pre-soldered headers.

I also believe there is a viable but smaller market where hobbyists and home users would pay £20 per Zero W in bulk, but that's undermined by those potential customers being able to buy at half that cost through placing multiple orders with retailers; why pay £240 for 10 when you can get the same for £120 if prepared to wait a month or so to get those ?

Anything over £13 is having to compete with retailers selling multiples and bulk at that price and customers being willing to wait or purchase through multiple retailers to minimise cost.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:54 am

mfa298 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 am
I was starting to wonder if there's a case for selling bulk packs of Pi0 and Pi0w at whatever the actual price works out to.
That would be the best solution. $5 and $10 is too cheap to be viable to manufacture in quantity, having to buy hundreds is too many for home users and hobbyists. It is always claimed there is little profit made on a Pi so just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price. The profit would then be the same whether making Zeroes or Pi 3B's, the Foundation's revenue stream would not be adversely impacted. Everyone wins.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:21 am

hippy wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:54 am
..just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price. The profit would then be the same whether making Zeroes or Pi 3B's, the Foundation's revenue stream would not be adversely impacted. Everyone wins.
I'm pretty sure I suggested this some time back. We want the foundation to get profit for charitable purposes. The low headline price of the Zero is fun and a good headline, but people also want to buy them in more reasonable quantities while still supporting the foundation. The profit add then protects any loss from reduced 3B sales. I'm not at all sure Zero market is the same as 3B market....but I've seen that noted as a concern.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:46 am

The ZeroW with headers is a compact A+ minus a few little used (for the people targeted here) functionality but with WiFi and BT built in.

A+ are currently £20 @PiHut.

Given the ZeroW is less even at £15, that should be a start point with a max of £20.

The flaw is they've been available in for less and increasing the headline price even with headers is always a hard thing for customers.
I'm sure they'll forget after a bit.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:57 am

It is always claimed there is little profit made on a Pi so just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price.
Done.
If you require Raspberry Pi Zero in bulk, ModMyPi allow up to 20 unit purchases of the Raspberry Pi Zero with pre-soldered headers. Same with Rasperry Pi Zero WiFi.
.

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