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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:15 pm

megadrive,
I'm disgusted. Don't bother replying, nothing anyone can say can justify this.
Be disgusted then.

You are demanding that someone supplies computers to you at a dirt cheap price and for no profit. Nothing you say makes people not wanting to do you that favor "unjust".

I think it pretty damn good of the Pi Foundation to do it at all.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:38 pm

Why do we need to justify our pricing policy?

If you don't like it, don't buy. That's how a free market economy works, and has been working since the Zero was released.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:19 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:38 pm
If you don't like it, don't buy. That's how a free market economy works, and has been working since the Zero was released.
A free-market economy is characterised by laws which ensure the consumer gets to decide for themselves how much of a particular product is needed instead of having that decision made for them by a central authority such as a government or manufacturer.

Unrelated to free-market concerns, some societies may also have enacted rules to counteract discrimination based on race and ethnicity. These rules might prevent a manufacturer of retail products from deciding which people are allowed to buy how much of their product.

From what I understand, letting each individual decide what they personally need is further supported by
  • A game-theoretic analysis which shows the resulting Nash equilibrium results in higher standards of living.
  • The principle of subsidiarity in which decisions should be made by the most-local competent authority.
Since rationing appears unfavourable from both economic and social justice points of view, it is not surprising that central control by a manufacturer to determine who gets how many Zeros meets with repeated astonishment.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:37 am

ejolson wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:19 am
A free-market economy is characterised by laws which ensure the consumer gets to decide for themselves how much of a particular product is needed instead of having that decision made for them by a central authority such as a government or manufacturer.
That's a load of crap, as product sales frequently limit quantities. Just look at recent Black Friday advertisements and you will find that many (likely most) will have purchase limits. New products also frequently have introductory or early release sale prices that are limited quantity (new movies on Blu-Ray or DVD, and new music on CD for example). This is not an uncommon practice. The only thing that's different with the Pi0/W pricing is that they are permanently on sale for the $5/$10 price.

While I don't disagree that this could have been handled better, it's not really all that unusual, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
Last edited by HawaiianPi on Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:50 am

ejolson.
Since rationing appears unfavourable from both economic and social justice points of view, it is not surprising that central control by a manufacturer to determine who gets how many Zeros meets with repeated astonishment.
What?

In this wonderful free market economy I can try to make whatever I can and try to sell it at whatever price I like. Maybe that is a sustainable business, maybe not.

That is not "central control" that is me deciding how to run my business.

Why would we expect the Pi Foundation to behave differently ?

How is this unfavourable from an economic or social justice point of view?
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:40 am

ejolson wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:19 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:38 pm
If you don't like it, don't buy. That's how a free market economy works, and has been working since the Zero was released.
A free-market economy is characterised by laws which ensure the consumer gets to decide for themselves how much of a particular product is needed instead of having that decision made for them by a central authority such as a government or manufacturer.
There is frequently a limited amount of Ferraris made in order to maintain exclusivity. (Which is different from the case with the Zero, but roll with me here)

So you can buy a Porsche or a Lamborghini instead. Ferrari (or I guess Fiat) don't have a monopolistic position in the market where they can hinder other manufacturers to make gofastflashbling cars.

Similarly, you can buy other small SCB computers that can run Linux, and there is nothing the RPi foundation can do about that. So the whole premise is flawed.
Last edited by Technocolour on Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:17 am

Technocolour wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:40 am
There is frequently a limited amount of Ferraris made in order to maintain exclusivity.
There's even more to it than that. Some Ferrari models can only be purchased by invitation. In other words, even if you can afford one, you can't buy it unless Ferrari says so (they send out exclusive invitations to purchase certain models, and if you weren't invited, dealers will not sell you one). I think Bugatti has done that as well. But that's quite an extreme example of OEM sales restrictions.

Anyway...the point is, the Pi Zero series was not intended to be the basis for commercial products, and the $5/$10 Pi Zero/W pricing is restricted. If you want to purchase large quantities there are options (at higher per-unit pricing), and if you want small quantities, you have far fewer options (Micro Center will sell you more than one, with multiples costing more than the initial $5/$10, and only in-store).
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:10 am

My take on the matter is that Eben wanted to prove that it was possible to build and sell a computer for little or no cost - which he did by giving it away as a free gift on the printed copies of the MagPie magazine.

It wasn't originally intended to be a successful product that would sell in huge numbers.

I could be wrong.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:01 am

I like the socialist principle of Pi Zero availability; that everyone is entitled to one and no more. The only limitation being how many have been produced.

That's been a little diluted by some resellers allowing people to buy multiple Zeroes as long as they are bought singularly and separately. But it still hinders those with huge wads of cash scooping up all there is and denying others their opportunity to obtain one.

The 'Free with MagPi' launch wasn't quite so wonderful as individuals often grabbed all they could leaving none for anyone else. The rules around purchase now avoids that.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:10 pm

Is $15 for a ZeroWH really such a horrendous price? You get a lot for that price.

Tbh if we were to change the one per customer limit for the Zero, we would do it by increasing the price, so arguing about it is a zero benefit game.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:42 pm

megadave wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:19 pm
... this ludicrous rule that makes this either impossible or outrageously expensive.
A few years ago, a guy came up with the idea of selling computers so cheap they could be considered throw-away items.

Now some people are complaining about having to spend less than that, if they want more than one.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:48 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:10 pm
Is $15 for a ZeroWH really such a horrendous price? You get a lot for that price.

Tbh if we were to change the one per customer limit for the Zero, we would do it by increasing the price, so arguing about it is a zero benefit game.
I think charging $14 for either the Zero W in quantities or the Zero would, in fact, solve the problem: Many people don't want the header and some people don't want the WiFi radio. No one likes the waste of shipping individual units and most would be happy for the foundation to get the extra money.

On the other hand, you may be right that it's only about the money. One time I suggested to make Zeros with different coloured circuit boards. Who on this forum would buy multiple Pi Zero W computers if they were manufactured using raspberry-red coloured circuit boards for $14 dollars each? What about pink? What about blue? White, black, purple, orange or yellow?

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:54 pm

ejolson wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:48 pm
Who on this forum would buy multiple Pi Zero W computers if they were manufactured using raspberry-red coloured circuit boards for $15 dollars each?
Not me.

I have as many Zeroes as I need. In fact I'm slightly embarrassed that I managed to buy a few more than I was supposed to be able to. I'd prefer that the money went to the Foundation to support their educational causes. I can only justify this to myself because I have worked hard to support the Pi through the forums and the educational aims through Code Club and other volunteer work.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:44 pm

ejolson wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:48 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:10 pm
Is $15 for a ZeroWH really such a horrendous price? You get a lot for that price.

Tbh if we were to change the one per customer limit for the Zero, we would do it by increasing the price, so arguing about it is a zero benefit game.
I think charging $14 for either the Zero W in quantities or the Zero would, in fact, solve the problem: Many people don't want the header and some people don't want the WiFi radio. No one likes the waste of shipping individual units and most would be happy for the foundation to get the extra money.
We would be happy to sell you large quantities of Zero's/W's at WH prices. Contact [email protected]. Would need to be a decent sized order, in the hundreds. There's a backlog at the moment though due to all production aimed at Pi4 until recently.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:00 pm

Some people would be willing to do that, Jamesh (I would), but I also think some (most) people aren't prepared to buy several hundered when they only want five.

Perhaps someone here is prepared to buy them in bulk via the method mentioned above and resell them in smaller quantities?
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:06 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:00 pm
Some people would be willing to do that, Jamesh (I would), but I also think some (most) people aren't prepared to buy several hundered when they only want five.

Perhaps someone here is prepared to buy them in bulk via the method mentioned above and resell them in smaller quantities?
I'm sure that would be possible. However, I sure the person doing it would also get many claims of price gouging, even though that would not be what is happening. Mind you, there's currently a 1.3 Zero on Ebay for £10.19 prior to any bids going in.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:24 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:06 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:00 pm
Some people would be willing to do that, Jamesh (I would), but I also think some (most) people aren't prepared to buy several hundered when they only want five.

Perhaps someone here is prepared to buy them in bulk via the method mentioned above and resell them in smaller quantities?
I'm sure that would be possible. However, I sure the person doing it would also get many claims of price gouging, even though that would not be what is happening.
If the colour were different, say white for the $14 version, that would alleviate any confusion about price gouging. People are willing to pay more for coffee that has a fair-trade label on it; maybe they would pay more for a special colour of Zero that indicates extra funds going to the foundation for education.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:35 am

I hadn't noticed this thread until now but can see it's a long runner. Wouldn't the solution be for the Pi organisation to scrap the PiZero as it currently is, release a PiZeroE for educational establishments at the £5 price for however many they need (even a whole classload), and sell a PiZeroC at £15-ish in whatever quantities people want ? I can't see the extra £10 is going to put off anybody buying one-offs ofr hobby use, whilst also allowing a legit way for commercial use as the product does have things other Pis don't.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:48 am

Small quantity pi zero exists as the WH version

Cutting or desoldering the header really isn't so hard if you want to slim it down.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:27 am

MikeDB wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:35 am
I hadn't noticed this thread until now but can see it's a long runner. Wouldn't the solution be for the Pi organisation to scrap the PiZero as it currently is, release a PiZeroE for educational establishments at the £5 price for however many they need (even a whole classload), and sell a PiZeroC at £15-ish in whatever quantities people want ? I can't see the extra £10 is going to put off anybody buying one-offs ofr hobby use, whilst also allowing a legit way for commercial use as the product does have things other Pis don't.

Subject has been covered and the outcome is always it is what it is and will not change:

Zero $5
ZeroW $10
ZeroWH $15 ( no limit on quantity )

Bulk quantities add around $5 to Zero & ZeroW

+ taxes & shipping / currency exchange rate




There are several other posts made over the last 5 years discussing.....

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=258807

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 5#p1240063
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:36 pm

MikeDB wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:35 am
sell a PiZeroC at £15-ish in whatever quantities people want ? I can't see the extra £10 is going to put off anybody buying one-offs ofr hobby use, whilst also allowing a legit way for commercial use
That is already available. The RPF/RPT aren't the obstacle here.

As Jamesh has noted, here and previously, the RPF/RPT are willing to sell Pi Zeroes at Zero WH prices in moderate quantities, so all resellers need to do is buy those and sell them. Job done.

And if official resellers aren't interested in doing that, any enterprising individual or business can step forward to make the best of that opportunity. If the money and quantities were right, I am sure the RPF/RPT would be open to discussing manufacturing any colour of PCB desired.

I had thought about doing it myself but I don't actually believe there's enough market for doing that, I am not business-minded enough to want to do it, and it would not be worth the effort for me. It's something which would best suit a business already selling to the public where it would be 'just another product' to add to their inventory.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:50 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:36 pm
I had thought about doing it myself but I don't actually believe there's enough market for doing that, I am not business-minded enough to want to do it, and it would not be worth the effort for me. It's something which would best suit a business already selling to the public where it would be 'just another product' to add to their inventory.
To add to that, if anyone were to set up a business to distribute bulk Pi0/Pi0W and/or replacement PMIC and/or any of the other things that can currently not be done in convenient quantities, either it would not be profitable, or if proved viable the "big guys" would jump in and wipe the new business out with their lower operating costs. It is probably a "no-win" venture. I'd love to be proved wrong, but it's too high risk for me.
(Also: I'm just shutting down one business, I really don't want another :o :shock: :roll: )
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:45 pm

Maybe the Pi Retail Store could lead the way; sell bulk quantities of Zeroes at WH prices, PMIC chips and other things we cannot currently get. It's 'in person availability' for now but would be a start, one way to measure whether there's any popularity or not. It's minimal risk and cost because they will be things taken from production inventory and can simply go back there if not sold.

I would have thought the chance to make a clear £10 profit per Zero at WH pricing would be too good to pass up and have said in the past that it could turn out the Zero becomes the most profitable board the RPF sell.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:57 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:45 pm
Maybe the Pi Retail Store could lead the way; sell bulk quantities of Zeroes at WH prices, PMIC chips and other things we cannot currently get. It's 'in person availability' for now but would be a start, one way to measure whether there's any popularity or not. It's minimal risk and cost because they will be things taken from production inventory and can simply go back there if not sold.

I would have thought the chance to make a clear £10 profit per Zero at WH pricing would be too good to pass up and have said in the past that it could turn out the Zero becomes the most profitable board the RPF sell.
Why would people buy a Zero instead of W or WH if they are the same price?
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:12 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:57 pm
Why would people buy a Zero instead of W or WH if they are the same price?
I cannot understand why people don't buy the WH when they want Pi0W in 2 to 200 quantities -- the fitted header can't really be a problem in the majority of cases (read "cases" either way!). It's the route I will take if my multi-Pi0 plus LoRa project ever gets deployed. (I need a LoRa hat anyway, but the benefit of WiFi is marginal.) However, the jump from £5 for a Pi0 to £15 for a Pi0WH is a bit steep -- could be fixed by a Pi0H at £10, but probably sales would be too low.

Maybe the short term supply problem is causing rationing of Pi0WH, which would confuse the issue.
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