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piglet
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:01 pm

mic_s wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:57 am
It is always claimed there is little profit made on a Pi so just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price.
Done.
If you require Raspberry Pi Zero in bulk, ModMyPi allow up to 20 unit purchases of the Raspberry Pi Zero with pre-soldered headers. Same with Rasperry Pi Zero WiFi.
.
No. Not done. That's profit to ModMyPi, not profit to the charity as far as I can see.

The route of bundles of multiple boards at higher price from the factory to the retailers is the way to do it.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:19 pm

not profit to the charity as far as I can see
Ok. You are right. ModMyPi's offer is a "trial balloon". Rasp Ltd is watching the development. We will see the results in a month or so.
.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:59 pm

hippy wrote: If I had official retailers refusing to play by my rules I'd be telling them I'll be looking for alternative retailers who would. Such a threat would normally be enough to slap a professional business back into line, and good riddance if they won't play by the rules; they wouldn't be the sort of people I'd want to do business with.
I think it works in the other way. It is not in interest of the Foundation to police it with current pricing terms. It even goes against educational principle if enforced really strictly. As jamesh said
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:26 pm
Retailers would be foolish in the extreme to sell bulk at $5 and $10. I would be very surprised if any did it for any length of time.
This somehow confirms my previous conclusion that the $5 price make it a zero profit or even practical loss for retailers when counting also handling of returns etc. So the one per customer rule is there not for Foundation but for retailers so they are not obliged to sell you second one at that price if they don't want.

So if e.g. Pimoroni allows one per order they either don't care as policing the one per customer rule would cost them more or they bear the loss and make it somewhere else due to additional sales related to happy Zero customers. Or they are simply cool pirates who don't like enforcing rule that does not make sense.

Initially I thought the $5 price can be real but considering that even Chinese manufacturers/sellers cannot match this price on similar hardware now after 2 years with all their minimal profits, low labor and shipping prices, no support, no certification, low quality etc ... it tells something. And I guess all parts of the chain possibly agreed to this idea of sacrificing their normal profits for reaching this $5 goal starting with major part manufacturers and ending with retailers. So that's why it does not scale and once you want to sell it in bulk with normal business terms between all involved parties the price doubles even for high quantities.
Last edited by fanoush on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:46 am
A+ are currently £20 @PiHut.

Given the ZeroW is less even at £15, that should be a start point with a max of £20.
That's roughly my feeling too. There's an argument that people wouldn't pay £20 or more when they can get an A+ for that and it has some validity. But the Zero W is a different beast; smaller footprint, no headers, and are more suited to particular applications. And of course the Zero W supports OTG, has WiFi and Bluetooth which the A+ doesn't.

The three primary non-industrial Pi products are IMO; Zero W, latest 2B, and 3B. That would fit $15-$20, $30 and $35 pricing and I think would be acceptable to most people.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:16 pm

piglet wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:01 pm
mic_s wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:57 am
It is always claimed there is little profit made on a Pi so just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price.
Done.
If you require Raspberry Pi Zero in bulk, ModMyPi allow up to 20 unit purchases of the Raspberry Pi Zero with pre-soldered headers. Same with Rasperry Pi Zero WiFi.
.
No. Not done. That's profit to ModMyPi, not profit to the charity as far as I can see.

The route of bundles of multiple boards at higher price from the factory to the retailers is the way to do it.
Fear not - we make profit on all Pi sales. But distributors also need to make a profit or they go out of business.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:32 pm

Yup.

We can't know whether the pin-populated Zeros being sold in bulk were sold in bulk to the retailer at significantly higher unit price than they get the "sell at $5" ones, and they're just passing on the cost + adding their selling margin or whether they got them at the "sell at $5" price, are adding pins and then pocketing all the price uplift from there to what they sell them for.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the first of those two options is what is happening.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:06 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:47 pm
Interesting that they are selling the Pi0W for essentially the same price as the A+.
Don't forget that those are priced in CAD. An A+ goes for about $30 here.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:15 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm
The three primary non-industrial Pi products are IMO; Zero W, latest 2B, and 3B. That would fit $15-$20, $30 and $35 pricing and I think would be acceptable to most people.
I like that pricing scheme!

I have not been able find a seller in NA that offers a with headers only version of Zero W like ModMyPi. So for now I buy bundles that include uSD + Power (25USD CanaKit) or camera + case (45USD Adafruit).

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Paul Hutch wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:15 pm
hippy wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm
The three primary non-industrial Pi products are IMO; Zero W, latest 2B, and 3B. That would fit $15-$20, $30 and $35 pricing and I think would be acceptable to most people.
I like that pricing scheme!

I have not been able find a seller in NA that offers a with headers only version of Zero W like ModMyPi. So for now I buy bundles that include uSD + Power (25USD CanaKit) or camera + case (45USD Adafruit).
Why not order from ModMyPi? The shipping charges and delivery times are competitive with US suppliers, so go ahead and order from the companies that *will* provide the materials and service. Indeed, for me (US West Coast), shipping is often faster from the UK than from the US East Coast.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:38 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:16 pm
Fear not - we make profit on all Pi sales. But distributors also need to make a profit or they go out of business.
That has always been my assumption. The "problem", such as it is, is that the margins are narrower than retailers want, and narrow enough that RS and Farnell weren't willing to handle the product.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:44 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:46 am
A+ are currently £20 @PiHut.

Given the ZeroW is less even at £15, that should be a start point with a max of £20.
That's roughly my feeling too. There's an argument that people wouldn't pay £20 or more when they can get an A+ for that and it has some validity. But the Zero W is a different beast; smaller footprint, no headers, and are more suited to particular applications. And of course the Zero W supports OTG, has WiFi and Bluetooth which the A+ doesn't.

The three primary non-industrial Pi products are IMO; Zero W, latest 2B, and 3B. That would fit $15-$20, $30 and $35 pricing and I think would be acceptable to most people.
I think this reinforces my case for the release of the Pi3A. That would make it slot neatly above the Pi0W (at $15) if consistent with the A+ at $20. Pi0W too slow or one wants the power protection and populated header but you don't want the size or USB ports of a Pi2B or Pi3B? The at the "cost" of a slightly larger PCB, the Pi3A.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:57 pm

mfa298 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:15 am
Just out of interest, how much would people be willing to pay for zero w bought in bulk? But at lower levels than the current bulk limitations?
Reading the thread (and some of the similar threads) I was starting to wonder if there's a case for selling bulk packs of Pi0 and Pi0w at whatever the actual price works out to. If there was a standard bulk pack (say 10 units) they could potentially be packaged up like that in the factory to then be sold like that via the various resellers. That should also help minimise handling costs and potentially be more environmentally friendly as well (less packaging needed).
"Actual price" is not a well defined value. Ever step along the chain requires a profit in order to continue making and selling the products. The factory has to turn a profit, over and above component parts costs, labor to do the manufacturing, amortize and maintain the equipment, cover the on-going cost of the facility including things like power and light, and you have to pay a share of the supervisory and management salaries. That this can all be done and still get the boards out the door and enough less than $5 or $10 to let both the RPT and the retailers make even a slim profit is actually pretty astonishing.

I suggested some time back that Pi0s (and Pi0Ws) be sold in "packs" as a way to reduce the cost of handling and--on a per piece--shipping them. Various numbers have been suggested, mainly 5, 6, 10 or 12. I would favor a "6 pack", but I could see a "10 pack" instead or in addition. Given how thin the profit margins are, I think even this packaging would entail at least a modest rise ir recommended retail price. Probably in the range of $7 to $10 for the Pi0 and $12 to $15 for the Pi0W with single purchases being at the upper end of those ranges.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:05 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:35 pm
Why not order from ModMyPi? The shipping charges and delivery times are competitive with US suppliers, so go ahead and order from the companies that *will* provide the materials and service. Indeed, for me (US West Coast), shipping is often faster from the UK than from the US East Coast.
My experience with shipping from the UK has not been good (New England) and I often get charged an extra 2USD currency conversion fee when I order from outside NA. I may try them but at the current conversion rate it's 19USD so the 25USD CanaKit bundle is more cost effective for me since I always need more uSD cards and power supplies while headers sometimes I don't need and can add them myself for 1USD when I do.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed May 02, 2018 10:09 am

mic_s wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:57 am
It is always claimed there is little profit made on a Pi so just add whatever profit a Pi 3B does make to the Zeroes and sell at that price.
Done.
If you require Raspberry Pi Zero in bulk, ModMyPi allow up to 20 unit purchases of the Raspberry Pi Zero with pre-soldered headers. Same with Rasperry Pi Zero WiFi.
.
So that would mean i'd have to desolder 20 headers? Not really an option. I'm only using them for hobby projects and am willing to pay more than £10, but i don't want or need extras and I don't want headers.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Wed May 02, 2018 2:42 pm

MelanieT wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:09 am
So that would mean i'd have to desolder 20 headers? Not really an option. I'm only using them for hobby projects and am willing to pay more than £10, but i don't want or need extras and I don't want headers.
I feel the same way, I'll pay more for 0 & 0W but de-soldering headers on the ones I can't or don't want headers on is a lot of work and can lead to damaging the PCB (repairing cracked traces under the microscope isn't fun). So I buy bundles that have extra stuff I will need eventually. e.g. power supply, uSD card, camera module

If the Foundation would approve $15 Pi0W's as is for >1 purchase I'd buy them in a heartbeat, I'd probably even pay $20 each for them because the tiny form factor is great. Maybe they could do a trial run with Adafruit, $20 Pi0W's no limit, or limit of 10, with the extra $10 split between Adafruit and the Foundation.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:03 pm

ModMyPi will sell you bulk quantities of the Pi Zero W WH (i.e with header attached) at GBP12.80 per unit which seems pretty reasonable. Postage for qty 3 came to another 3 pounds or so. This looks like a pretty good option. I've ordered 3 as a test purchase so let's see. Since I generally end up adding a header anyway, this doesn't really seem like an issue. I guess if, for some reason, I needed to cut back the board profile it would be trivially easy to just cut the pins with a pair of diagonal cutters, surely?. Otherwise the cheapest I've found the headers is 5 for 5 quid on ebay so all things considered this seems a pretty decent option cost-wise. I don't know how many you could purchase in practice, for commercial projects, but it's reassuring to be able to at least get several in one order now.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am

Why is Adafruit still restricting the Pi0WH to one per order? I thought that one was not supposed to be restricted, and someone from RPF was going to contact them about that (from one of the many other threads on this same subject)?
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:13 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am
Why is Adafruit still restricting the Pi0WH to one per order? I thought that one was not supposed to be restricted, and someone from RPF was going to contact them about that (from one of the many other threads on this same subject)?
No idea. I'll flag it up.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am

Fyi, it is still 1 per customer.

Too bad, I designed a really nice smt robot controller board for the 0w months ago same size as the 0), but with restricted 0w sales it is not viable to take to production.
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:13 pm
HawaiianPi wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am
Why is Adafruit still restricting the Pi0WH to one per order? I thought that one was not supposed to be restricted, and someone from RPF was going to contact them about that (from one of the many other threads on this same subject)?
No idea. I'll flag it up.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:55 am

mikronauts wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am
Fyi, it is still 1 per customer.

Too bad, I designed a really nice smt robot controller board for the 0w months ago same size as the 0), but with restricted 0w sales it is not viable to take to production.
Use a different vendor.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:42 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:55 am
mikronauts wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am
Fyi, it is still 1 per customer.
Use a different vendor.
That doesn't solve the problem, it merely ignores it.
Its like using deodorant to mask the smell of something bad. Or, for a Pi related analogy, its like disabling the low voltage indicator instead of fixing the power supply.
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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:42 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:55 am
mikronauts wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am
Fyi, it is still 1 per customer.
Use a different vendor.
That doesn't solve the problem, it merely ignores it.
Its like using deodorant to mask the smell of something bad. Or, for a Pi related analogy, its like disabling the low voltage indicator instead of fixing the power supply.
If the agreement with the RPT is that Pi0WH boards may be sold in multiples, and one vendor insists on selling them only one per order, then one orders from a vendor that doesn't apply that restriction. That "punishes" the restrictive vendor and supports the non-restrictive vendor--discouraging the former from that practice, and encouraging the later to continue in what they're doing. This is a simple application of free market economics.

If one wanted to rub it in, one could provide feedback to the restrictive vendor pointing out that they specifically lost sales because of their policy.

I don't think your analogy fits.

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Re: pi zero w in quantities of 10...50

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:59 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:42 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:55 am
mikronauts wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am
Fyi, it is still 1 per customer.
Use a different vendor.
That doesn't solve the problem, it merely ignores it.
I'm not sure it is a problem as such. One retailer may be unwilling to sell more than one board but others do.

My local car dealer doesn't sell a particular make of car but the one next door does. It's not a problem for me or anyone else, the car manufacturers, or the dealers.

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