User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14483
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:40 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:18 pm
Heater wrote: The Zero is so cheap. Who is going to fuss over warranty replacement?
Well some people dont even want to pay 2 cents to fit the header at the factory it seems.
The Zero (like all Raspberry Pi's) is built to a price point. Adding the headers would have taken it well over that price point. Probably doubling the cost.

mattmiller
Posts: 2064
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:25 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:52 pm

The Zero (like all Raspberry Pi's) is built to a price point. Adding the headers would have taken it well over that price point.
The OP was referring to the two run pins on a Pi3 in their 1st post that JamesH said would cost 2 cents to add

Heater
Posts: 12736
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:05 pm

2 cents that would be wasted 15 million times by now as nobody uses or requires the functionality they provide. About 300,000 dollars!

It has also been pointed out that using those headers is a bad idea.

hippy
Posts: 5373
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:49 pm

Not sure how arguing over the cost of the product, the cost of fitting the headers, whether they should be fitted, or whether they should even be used, when the holes for such a connector are there, clearly marked, and their purpose documented and detailed, has anything to do with what supplier liability there is if someone does fit headers.

Perhaps it's just another attempt to derail a thread and drive it to being locked ?

mfa298
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:18 am

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:00 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm
Thanks all for the input. I just wanted to know If I void the wranty by adding the pins as there are a lot of info on the net about adding them but nobody says you loose your waranty by doing it.
In a legal sense it may not void the warranty, however the supplier will have a valid and good argument that you damaged the board by the modification and so the warranty is void.

If you took suitable steps (as has been suggested before) to test and document the state before and after modification and used suitable tools (a cheap soldering iron with no esd protection might not be deemed a suitable tool) then you have a much better argument regarding warranty replacements.

wh7qq
Posts: 1273
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:50 am

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:45 pm

For the cost of the time and bandwidth that has gone into this silly thread, you could buy quite a few new RPis. Just buy a replacement RPi and be done with it...not like you are talking about the Crown Jewels here. The OP may have the best technique and gear in the world but the Foundation can't be expected to qualify the soldering technique of every ham-fisted owner who fries her/his Pi or to warranty against their depredations with things and fingers that may have huge static charges and most certainly, temperatures that exceed the storage limits of every bit on the board.

I have manhandled and even soldered on my 7 RPis to an extent that terrifies me and they seem to "live long and prosper" but I consider that good luck...certainly not skill gained in 45 years of prototyping electronic devices. I attribute most of my good luck to the tropical high humidity of the environment I live in and the grounding (which I can verify) of the tip of my soldering pencil. If I blow one in the future, no way will I go to the expense and time loss of sending it back. It is just not worth it.

Steve Wozniak did a nice video years ago (1985) about static discharge and micro-electronics. It should be a requirement for all who purchase and handle bare electronic devices like the RPi.

hippy
Posts: 5373
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:04 pm

wh7qq wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:45 pm
The OP may have the best technique and gear in the world but the Foundation can't be expected to qualify the soldering technique of every ham-fisted owner who fries her/his Pi or to warranty against their depredations with things and fingers that may have huge static charges and most certainly, temperatures that exceed the storage limits of every bit on the board.
I don't believe anyone is disputing that if someone makes a ham-fisted job of it they only have themselves to blame, have voided their warranty with respect to what they have done.

The question was regarding the situation when a modifier claims the job was done properly and a manufacturing defect is present which was not caused by their modification but the supplier will not accept any liability for that. You can call it a "silly thread" but there are important legal issues involved.

Heater
Posts: 12736
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 pm

In the EU vendors are compelled to provide a 2 year guarantee on consumer products.

So, you can take your modified and non-functional Pi back to the store and ask for repair or replacement.

They can say, "Sorry, no. You hacked it. That voids the warranty"

You can say "Bugger" and suck up your loss.

Or start some legal proceeding to recover your loss.

For such a low cost item as the Pi I would do the former.

hippy
Posts: 5373
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:42 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 pm
In the EU vendors are compelled to provide a 2 year guarantee on consumer products.

So, you can take your modified and non-functional Pi back to the store and ask for repair or replacement.

They can say, "Sorry, no. You hacked it. That voids the warranty"

You can say "Bugger" and suck up your loss.

Or start some legal proceeding to recover your loss.
That about sums it up.

A supplier will often ask for a product to be returned so they can assess the situation better before their final position is decided, but after that it's suck it up, get the lawyers involved, or take it to court.
Heater wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 pm
For such a low cost item as the Pi I would do the former.
Each person has to make their mind up about what to do if they find themselves in such a situation.

Even if the supplier were liable despite modification the modifier would have to argue it wasn't their mod which caused the problem, that it was a manufacturing defect, the supplier would be arguing the opposite. Who would most likely win that argument would probably be the major factor in deciding how to proceed.

It is unfortunate that sometimes people cannot prove something because they don't have the evidence or means to be able to do so. But such things are judged on evidence and balance of probabilities.

Not testing before performing the mod was an oversight.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 22742
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:13 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:52 pm
The Zero (like all Raspberry Pi's) is built to a price point. Adding the headers would have taken it well over that price point.
The OP was referring to the two run pins on a Pi3 in their 1st post that JamesH said would cost 2 cents to add
Nope, the cost I used was that provided as a guess by the OP, so I have no idea if it would be 2c or 10c or 1c. Anything over 0c would be a huge waste of money.

What people SHOULD take away from this thread - you should NOT be using those pins anyway. Causing an ARM reset is probably worse than yanking the power with regard to possible OS corruption (it's instantaneous, whilst I suspect a power yank decays a little more slowly*). If you are soldering stuff to it and using it, you should be prepared for many SD card rewrites or media repairs.


* Could be wrong, but using the ARM reset IS much worse than a proper shutdown.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

mattmiller
Posts: 2064
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:25 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:41 pm

Nope, the cost I used was that provided as a guess by the OP,
Apologies

User avatar
Burngate
Posts: 5892
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:34 pm
Location: Berkshire UK Tralfamadore
Contact: Website

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:50 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:13 pm
... Causing an ARM reset is probably worse than yanking the power with regard to possible OS corruption (it's instantaneous, whilst I suspect a power yank decays a little more slowly*)...
Why?
As far as I can see, the ARM cores won't know the power's been yanked until suddenly they can't do anything.
At least with an ARM reset, the card will still be able to finish writing (if that was the last thing it was told to do). With a yank, the power to the card may die before it can finish its last instruction, and corrupt itself.

hippy
Posts: 5373
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:05 am

One good and notable use of the RUN header is being able to reboot after shutdown without physically cycling the power. It is also good for holding the Pi in reset with appropriate logic while the PSU stabilises at turn on. That also allows staggered booting for a Pi rack to limit in-rush current.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 22742
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:49 pm

Burngate wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:50 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:13 pm
... Causing an ARM reset is probably worse than yanking the power with regard to possible OS corruption (it's instantaneous, whilst I suspect a power yank decays a little more slowly*)...
Why?
As far as I can see, the ARM cores won't know the power's been yanked until suddenly they can't do anything.
At least with an ARM reset, the card will still be able to finish writing (if that was the last thing it was told to do). With a yank, the power to the card may die before it can finish its last instruction, and corrupt itself.
An ARM reset will stop the ARM dead, so if in the middle of an SD card transaction that will be bad, but I see you point that if the SD card itself is doing something an ARM reset might let it complete.

Either are bad.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

Return to “General discussion”