JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:58 pm
This is silly. One can't expect a vendor to warranty a device after you have attacked it with a soldering iron.

"Warranty void if modified" should be obvious enough to anyone.
Thanks for your input. It is noted.

MarkTF
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:34 pm
MarkTF wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:21 pm
1) I've used these pins without issue. In the niche of people doing external watch dog stuff, it's probably the norm to use these pins.

2) You probably want to check your soldering station to verify that it is ESD safe, your are using good soldering technique, and that whatever circuitry you are attaching to the reset run pins is not doing something nasty, because the most likely case is that you've done something to damage the boards.
We also use them a lot. But wont any longer as it voids the waranty.
I'm not sure that's the right take away. Part of the appeal of the RPi is that they are relatively inexpensive platforms to work with and if one or two get fried along the way, well, that's the price of admission. However, there is often a lesson to be learned from these mistakes. One is clearly to test the board before modification to ensure you have a working baseline. If modifications are extensive then additionally testing at intermediate points might make sense.

Thus if something goes bad, there are a limited number of reasons why it might have done so. From what you've told us the possibilities include:
1) ESD or current leakage damage from the soldering which is an equipment or process problem that should be remedied
2) Damage to the board due to excessive heating
3) Mechanical damage or solder bridges on the circuit board
4) An inappropriate signal from your external reset circuit (e.g. 5V from the Arduino board into the 3.3 V RPi pin).
5) Something else (as an old hand explained to me as a young engineer troubleshooting hardware)

hippy
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:22 am
On the other hand lets say I did check the boards and all was fine. I solder the pins and all is still fine. and in 2 months time its stops working. Then the supplier will say the same thing. I modified the board.
You can claim a board failure was not a result of what you have done but the supplier can claim that it was.

Turn the tables and put yourself in the supplier's position and you would probably say the same.

It is not an uncommon situation. What rights, obligations and means of resolution each party has will usually be specified in legislation and regulations.

Modifying a board does not necessarily void warranty nor remove all rights if a fault later arises but you will have to determine what rights you do have. Citizen's advice staff, trading standards officers, and legal advisers may be able to help with that.

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davidcoton
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:38 pm

I think the procedure should be:
  1. Test boards on receipt, including major required subsystems (eg. board boots, HDMI display works, WiFi works, USB works). Document test results. Return any faulty units immediately.
  2. Carry out required modifications.
  3. Repeat tests as above. Scrap any faulty boards and investigate what caused the damage -- clearly not a warranty claim. Document results so you can prove that any subsequent failures were not the (immediate) result of the mods.
  4. Assemble units, carry out functional tests. Rework faulty assemblies. Document.
  5. Deploy.
That should give you a good case to show that faults claimed under warranty are genuine warranty issues. If a supplier argues about it, invite them to witness your test procedures. If they persist, change supplier.

There is another alternative: use a supplier's customisation service to add the header for you. They will charge, but maybe it's worth it to get modified boards under warranty.
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JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm

Thanks all for the input. I just wanted to know If I void the wranty by adding the pins as there are a lot of info on the net about adding them but nobody says you loose your waranty by doing it.

jamesh
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:08 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm
Thanks all for the input. I just wanted to know If I void the wranty by adding the pins as there are a lot of info on the net about adding them but nobody says you loose your waranty by doing it.
Suppliers do, we do.

And, tbh, it should be fairly obvious. Fiddle with the engine on your new car, you will void the warranty. Take your TV apart and solder something to a PCB, you will void the warranty. In fact, many cased products come with a sticker over a screw hole that says if sticker damaged you will void your warranty, and that's just taking the cover off!
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hippy
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:37 am

Modifications do not necessarily void warranties. Manufacturers can still be held liable for manufacturing defects despite modification.

The challenge is in determining whether there was a manufacturing defect or the failure was caused by the modification. This is why we have courts to settle disputes when two parties cannot agree.

But it is good to know that the Foundation / suppliers deem warranty is voided if header pins are soldered into the holes provided to have header pins soldered in to.

I would suggest adding an explicit note whenever the Foundation publishes anything which suggests adding such headers that it will void warranty. Otherwise people might not be aware that what they are being encouraged to do will void the warranty.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:08 pm
JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm
Thanks all for the input. I just wanted to know If I void the wranty by adding the pins as there are a lot of info on the net about adding them but nobody says you loose your waranty by doing it.
Suppliers do, we do.

And, tbh, it should be fairly obvious. Fiddle with the engine on your new car, you will void the warranty. Take your TV apart and solder something to a PCB, you will void the warranty. In fact, many cased products come with a sticker over a screw hole that says if sticker damaged you will void your warranty, and that's just taking the cover off!
To be honest it is not that obvious. I work with a lot of kits where you have to assemble the parts or have to solder on a connector.s or headers. And there you do not void the waranty.

A lot od ESP8266 come without headers. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13711

There you have to add it your self and there you do not loose the waranty for doing the solder job. But in the case on the Raspberry Pi you do. I my mind adding the pins is assembly (I did not make the holes they are there) not modification but I guess your deffinitions is different.

I did not fiddle with the engine as you put it. If we take your analogy all I did was to assemble a part of the engine that was not at the factory. Lets say to save costs they did not plug in the oil pressure sensor light. All I did was to plug it in. I did not modify the engine in any way to function in another way. I completed the assembly to use the fuction that is there.

So it is not that obvious. That is why I asked.

Heater
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:08 am

"Obvious" is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Voiding the warranty by soldering on the board would be my natural default assumption.

Your car analogy does not stand up for me. The Pi is a fully built, fully working thing when you buy it. Not a kit or self-assembly furniture.

As kids we used to pop the "Warranty void if removed stickers" with glee. We were going to do what we wanted with the thing and be responsible for any damage. We wanted to know what is inside and how it works. Or get it to do something different. Not be beholden to some warranty. Whatever happened to that idea?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:23 am

Heater wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:08 am
Your car analogy does not stand up for me. The Pi is a fully built, fully working thing when you buy it. Not a kit or self-assembly furniture.
Then why is the run headers not populated. This car comes without a on off switch lol. Is that a feature lol.
The car analogy is not mine btw.

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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:50 am

The most important leg of a three legged stool is the one that's missing.
It's called thinking. Why don't you try it sometime?

jamesh
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:40 am

JacoFourie wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:23 am
Heater wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:08 am
Your car analogy does not stand up for me. The Pi is a fully built, fully working thing when you buy it. Not a kit or self-assembly furniture.
Then why is the run headers not populated. This car comes without a on off switch lol. Is that a feature lol.
The car analogy is not mine btw.
Because 99.9999% of users don't use it. Why should everyone pay for something hardly anyone uses. I work for RPT, I didn't even know it was there...
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JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:44 am

jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:40 am
JacoFourie wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:23 am
Heater wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:08 am
Your car analogy does not stand up for me. The Pi is a fully built, fully working thing when you buy it. Not a kit or self-assembly furniture.
Then why is the run headers not populated. This car comes without a on off switch lol. Is that a feature lol.
The car analogy is not mine btw.
Because 99.9999% of users don't use it. Why should everyone pay for something hardly anyone uses. I work for RPT, I didn't even know it was there...
I bet you if those pins were populated then people would use it as most PCs have a on off and reset switch. But ok I have my answer. Bottom line is dont use it if you dont want to void you warrenty. Thanks all for you input.

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DougieLawson
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am

You should stop posting here (it's now a circular argument) and GO AND ASK YOUR HARDWARE VENDOR.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:53 am

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... berry-pi-2

You risk SD card corruption by using these pins to reset the Arms rather than going through the correct shutdowns procedure, so its a bad idea to make them more available....
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HawaiianPi
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 am

JacoFourie wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:44 am
... most PCs have a on off and reset switch.
Yes, and using that switch on just about any modern PC will result in OS corruption. Powering on/off your computer at-will has not been a reality for several decades. Modern computers and operating systems need a proper shutdown procedure (with few exceptions).

Bottom line is those connectors are not populated, and the pins are not included, so adding them is a modification. I really don't understand why you find this so hard to understand. Many electronic devices have unpopulated connector and component locations on the PCB, this does not mean you are free to solder your own stuff on there without consequences.

Your kit analogy is flawed, as they are intended to be assembled, and even then I doubt all would be covered if you really did a hack job on the assembly.

You car analogy is equally flowed, as it's not a connector that was intended to be functional from the factory. It's quite the opposite. The connector is not even available by default (unpopulatoed) and not needed or recommended for normal operation.

And finally, your "there are lots of guides on the Internet" analogy is seriously flawed, as any idiot can publish a guide. The Internet is the largest archive of misinformation ever created.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:13 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 am
JacoFourie wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:44 am
... most PCs have a on off and reset switch.
Yes, and using that switch on just about any modern PC will result in OS corruption. Powering on/off your computer at-will has not been a reality for several decades. Modern computers and operating systems need a proper shutdown procedure (with few exceptions).

Bottom line is those connectors are not populated, and the pins are not included, so adding them is a modification. I really don't understand why you find this so hard to understand. Many electronic devices have unpopulated connector and component locations on the PCB, this does not mean you are free to solder your own stuff on there without consequences.

Your kit analogy is flawed, as they are intended to be assembled, and even then I doubt all would be covered if you really did a hack job on the assembly.

You car analogy is equally flowed, as it's not a connector that was intended to be functional from the factory. It's quite the opposite. The connector is not even available by default (unpopulatoed) and not needed or recommended for normal operation.

And finally, your "there are lots of guides on the Internet" analogy is seriously flawed, as any idiot can publish a guide. The Internet is the largest archive of misinformation ever created.
Thanks for your input. It is noted.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:14 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am
You should stop posting here (it's now a circular argument) and GO AND ASK YOUR HARDWARE VENDOR.
Thanks for your input. I got my answer. Regards.

hippy
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:23 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 am
Bottom line is those connectors are not populated, and the pins are not included, so adding them is a modification. I really don't understand why you find this so hard to understand.
The composite video output connector is not populated. Nor are the GPIO connectors on most Pi Zero and Pi Zero W.

Does fitting GPIO connectors on a Pi zero or Pi zero W also invalidate warranty ?

The issue is not whether it is a modification; it is whether it is a modification which invalidates warranty, whether it would be an authorised modification or an unauthorised modification, whether implied to be an authorised modification or not.

And, no matter what anyone says here, what the law and regulations say still applies.

I would suggest that selling a product with an advertised capability which can only be achieved by voiding warranty is rather problematic when there is no explicit mention of that invalidating warranty.

In fact the Foundation are actively encouraging people to modify their boards with no mention that doing so will invalidate their warranty -

"People who want to use expansion boards will need to solder a pin header onto the board to connect it. It’s not hard, and it’s something we actively want to get kids in particular learning to do" - https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pinout ... connectors

I am not going to further debate what the legal situation may be, or what the Foundation or anyone else believes the legal situation to be. If the OP wishes to pursue the matter or not it is entirely up to them. They have the right to do so no matter what anyone says here.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:50 pm

hippy wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:23 pm
HawaiianPi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 am
Bottom line is those connectors are not populated, and the pins are not included, so adding them is a modification. I really don't understand why you find this so hard to understand.
The composite video output connector is not populated. Nor are the GPIO connectors on most Pi Zero and Pi Zero W.

Does fitting GPIO connectors on a Pi zero or Pi zero W also invalidate warranty ?

The issue is not whether it is a modification; it is whether it is a modification which invalidates warranty, whether it would be an authorised modification or an unauthorised modification, whether implied to be an authorised modification or not.

And, no matter what anyone says here, what the law and regulations say still applies.

I would suggest that selling a product with an advertised capability which can only be achieved by voiding warranty is rather problematic when there is no explicit mention of that invalidating warranty.

In fact the Foundation are actively encouraging people to modify their boards with no mention that doing so will invalidate their warranty -

"People who want to use expansion boards will need to solder a pin header onto the board to connect it. It’s not hard, and it’s something we actively want to get kids in particular learning to do" - https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pinout ... connectors

I am not going to further debate what the legal situation may be, or what the Foundation or anyone else believes the legal situation to be. If the OP wishes to pursue the matter or not it is entirely up to them. They have the right to do so no matter what anyone says here.
Thanks I forgot about the Pi Zero. So it seems people should just know that you will void your waranty if you add a pin to the Pi 3 but are expeted to add the pins your self on the Pi Zero. Can sombody from the foundation tell me does that also void your waranty like on the Pi 3 ?

mattmiller
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:19 pm

Can sombody from the foundation tell me does that also void your waranty like on the Pi 3 ?
I think what everyone is saying is that ANY modification of ANY device/thing will invalidate the warranty of that device

As others have said - simply unscrewing a cover can invalidate a warranty

In the case of a SBC device things like plugging usb devices in - inserting/removing an SD card/memory chip would not normally invalidate a warranty

Things like soldering connectors (even if its designed for users to solder them to) - most people wouldn't expect a supplier to replace it once you've done that

If your going to be doing anymore of soldering these pins - I'd make sure your soldering iron is the right one for the job. The Pi boards are packed full of components and applying too much heat for too long or leaving a thin solder bridge behind is going to lead to problems

PS I borked one of my PiZero due to not being careful enough in soldering on a header - I just used it as template for my 3D cases after that

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hansotten
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:29 pm

Thanks I forgot about the Pi Zero. So it seems people should just know that you will void your waranty if you add a pin to the Pi 3 but are expeted to add the pins your self on the Pi Zero. Can sombody from the foundation tell me does that also void your waranty like on the Pi 3 ?
Some time ago Pimoroni or Pihut had a sale of returned Zero's or Pi's , in unknown condition, warranty with horrible, really horrible soldering. Unbelievable what people can do on the poor device and then expect warranty.

I woild not be surprised soldering on Zero's will void warranty too. Sinvce the Foundation does not sell directly to end consumers, the shops will have to answer and handle this.
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hippy
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:43 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:19 pm
I think what everyone is saying is that ANY modification of ANY device/thing will invalidate the warranty of that device
Seems that way to me too. It does not mean that is a correct interpretation of the legal situation which exists. It clearly isn't as legislation and case law shows.

Heater
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:28 pm

The Pi Zero is a different case.

As far as I can tell it is intended to be "modified". One needs to solder wires or a header to it before it is fit for it's intended use.

It's really cheap, sold at very narrow margins, so checking if warranty claims are down to the user causing damage or a faulty original board is not reasonable. Even just automatically swapping boards with users who say they have failed is not economic.

The Zero gets to be more like a component. A resistor say, which is intended to be soldered into place and have it's legs cut short. Does anyone return a resistor under warranty?

Anyway, what the heck? The Zero is so cheap. Who is going to fuss over warranty replacement?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:18 pm

Heater wrote: The Zero is so cheap. Who is going to fuss over warranty replacement?
Well some people dont even want to pay 2 cents to fit the header at the factory it seems.

What I take away from all this is dont solder on any Raspberry Pi boards. Then you are ok.

In future I will ask the supplier before we do any solder jobs. Even if it is sold as a kit. We use a lot of micro controllers and computers. 100 at a time. We are using the Orange Pi Zero also. There you also have to solder the GPIO pins.

So bottom line is ask before you solder. Ask the supplier that is. Hope you all have happy holidays.

Regards.

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