JacoFourie
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Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:38 am

Hi.

Can somebody from the Pi Foundation please clear something up for me. The Pi run / reset pins do not come populated with pins. I was told I had to solder them on my self. I bought 7 Pi boards for a project I am working on and soldered the pins on as required. I found one of the boards did not boot and another one the on-board wifi did not work. I did not test the boards before I soldered the pins but can not see why soldering the run pins would have that effect. I had previous Pi boards also do the same out of the box without any soldering done.

I sent the 2 boards back to the supplier. I got this mail back from them .

"it seems that there was an attempt to solder items onto and/or off the board. As a rule set by the Pi foundation, This is classified as a modification to the board. And voids the warranty on the board."

Is this the case? And then if so why are the run / reset pins not soldered on to the board during the manufacturing process ?

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:34 am

Because that connection is not required for normal operation. I've been using Pi computers for years and never found I needed it.

Modification of almost any product will void the warranty. That's pretty standard warranty stuff. It's actually quite rare to find the opposite, so you should have thoroughly tested your boards before modding them, or simply used them without a run connection.
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JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:38 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:34 am
Because that connection is not required for normal operation. I've been using Pi computers for years and never found I needed it.

Modification of almost any product will void the warranty. That's pretty standard warranty stuff. It's actually quite rare to find the opposite, so you should have thoroughly tested your boards before modding them, or simply used them without a run connection.
Hi. Are you from the foundation ?
Why have hardware on the board if you should not use it ? I needed to use it. You may not and that is your solution. In my case I had to reset the Pi if the power comes back as the UPS powering the PI keeps the Pi in standby mode and it will not start if the Pi is not reset by hand.

I did not modify the board. I used the normal functionality. It is the same as hooking up pins to the GPIO. It just does not have header pins to plug the wires in.

So then all should be warned to not use those holes to add pins as you void the warranty. The web is full of tutorials showing you to use them and even one of die moderators on this forum said is should be OK to use them.

jahboater
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:00 am

2 out of 7 boards faulty? I don't think so, the failure rate of Pi's is incredibly low.
They are throughly tested in the factory.

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hansotten
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:01 am

One of the official resellers has this on Raspberry Pi warranty:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1627216.pdf

Pretty standard rule btw.


What does this limited warranty NOT cover?
Newark element14 has no obligation to repair, replace, or provide refunds in the following
instances:
• If the alleged defect arises because Customer has altered or repaired the Raspberry pi
without the prior written consent or authorization of Newark element14;


You did alter it by soldering pins, so you did void your warranty. Connecting e.g. to the GPIO pins is not an alteration.

Lesson to be learned here: check the device before altering it. Then you can have your warranty claim. After soldering and things are broken, that is your risk.
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JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:22 am

OK I will take this one as a lesson learned. But then all should be warned that if you add pins to the run / reset pins you void your warranty.

On the other hand lets say I did check the boards and all was fine. I solder the pins and all is still fine. and in 2 months time its stops working. Then the supplier will say the same thing. I modified the board.

So the bottom line is you can not use those pins if you have to solder headers to them.

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bensimmo
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:25 am

He may have altered it by soldering the pins (which is part of the Pi design).
But that does not mean it arised because he did that, somewhere some proof would be needed to show it did/did not arise from that.

WiFi not working should have nothing to do with it.
Starting may have because it is linked to the starting.

Leave it to the officials to say what is/what is not, since it has nothing to do with us really.
We can only muse as long as we like, unless you know your consumer rights in whichever country.

mattmiller
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:44 am

So the bottom line is you can not use those pins if you have to solder headers to them.
Unfortunately, (and I'm as guilty as next person for not doing so from time to time) its more of a case of using just the right amount of solder/heat for the job

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:49 am

If I have to use those pins again I will try these

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/10527

Why dont they just solder them from the start is beyond me.
Last edited by JacoFourie on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RaTTuS
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:54 am

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:49 am
...
Why dont they just solder them from the start is bojond me.
cost , and compatability
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JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:57 am

I will pay 2 cents extra for the headers. No problem lol.

sparkyhall
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:40 pm

@JacoFourie You can start a Pi by pulling GPIO3 on the normal header low (short pin #5 to #6), there is no need to use the 'Run' pins for this.

sparkie777
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:55 pm

interesting to know how to Wake from Halt - eLinux.org

it's OT though

jamesh
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:45 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:57 am
I will pay 2 cents extra for the headers. No problem lol.
But will all of the other 17M buyers? Total cost to the Foundation of adding those connects at 2c each (I've used your price), $340k. And no, we woudlnt; put the price up to $35.02 to compensate. Total number of people who need that connector, you. And probably a few others.

Soldering to the board voids the warranty - so always check the board works BEFORE soldering. Otherwise it's impossible to show that the damage was there previously.
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:47 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:25 am
He may have altered it by soldering the pins (which is part of the Pi design).
But that does not mean it arised because he did that, somewhere some proof would be needed to show it did/did not arise from that.

WiFi not working should have nothing to do with it.
Starting may have because it is linked to the starting.

Leave it to the officials to say what is/what is not, since it has nothing to do with us really.
We can only muse as long as we like, unless you know your consumer rights in whichever country.
No, you need to prove the alteration did NOT damage the board. Because the failure rate on Pi's coming from the factory is incredibly low, that will be difficult. Best way is to test a new Pi before you alter it....
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MarkTF
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:21 pm

1) I've used these pins without issue. In the niche of people doing external watch dog stuff, it's probably the norm to use these pins.

2) You probably want to check your soldering station to verify that it is ESD safe, your are using good soldering technique, and that whatever circuitry you are attaching to the reset run pins is not doing something nasty, because the most likely case is that you've done something to damage the boards.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:28 pm

sparkyhall wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:40 pm
@JacoFourie You can start a Pi by pulling GPIO3 on the normal header low (short pin #5 to #6), there is no need to use the 'Run' pins for this.

Hi. You need to enable I2C to use the UPS HAT

http://www.raspberrypiwiki.com/index.ph ... _HAT_Board

When you do that that method to start the Pi no longer works. Or is there a way around it ?

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:32 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:45 pm
JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:57 am
I will pay 2 cents extra for the headers. No problem lol.
But will all of the other 17M buyers? Total cost to the Foundation of adding those connects at 2c each (I've used your price), $340k. And no, we woudlnt; put the price up to $35.02 to compensate. Total number of people who need that connector, you. And probably a few others.

Soldering to the board voids the warranty - so always check the board works BEFORE soldering. Otherwise it's impossible to show that the damage was there previously.
I wont solder any of the boards again. I have learned my lesson. It would be great to have the headers populated as we use the Pi's in remote locations running headless. We have an arduino also in the case and that acts as a watchdog. If the Pi does not send a command within 2 min then the Arduino will reset the Pi. But alas that solution is now imposible using this hardware and we will have to look for another solution.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:34 pm

MarkTF wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:21 pm
1) I've used these pins without issue. In the niche of people doing external watch dog stuff, it's probably the norm to use these pins.

2) You probably want to check your soldering station to verify that it is ESD safe, your are using good soldering technique, and that whatever circuitry you are attaching to the reset run pins is not doing something nasty, because the most likely case is that you've done something to damage the boards.
We also use them a lot. But wont any longer as it voids the waranty.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:36 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:47 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:25 am
He may have altered it by soldering the pins (which is part of the Pi design).
But that does not mean it arised because he did that, somewhere some proof would be needed to show it did/did not arise from that.

WiFi not working should have nothing to do with it.
Starting may have because it is linked to the starting.

Leave it to the officials to say what is/what is not, since it has nothing to do with us really.
We can only muse as long as we like, unless you know your consumer rights in whichever country.
No, you need to prove the alteration did NOT damage the board. Because the failure rate on Pi's coming from the factory is incredibly low, that will be difficult. Best way is to test a new Pi before you alter it....
Yes I will test them if we use them again. I have had 3 Pi's on-board wifi not work out of the box. But this was the first one that did not want to boot.

So basically we can not use those pins as you have to solder the board ? Or can I use them if I use soolderless header pins ?

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:40 pm

sparkie777 wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:55 pm
interesting to know how to Wake from Halt - eLinux.org

it's OT though
Hi Sparkie. I found that if you enable I2C then those pins no longer work that way. I need I2C to read the SOC of the UPS.

http://www.raspberrypiwiki.com/index.ph ... _HAT_Board

Or is there another way to have I2C and the wake from halt on the same board ?

sparkyhall
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 pm

JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:28 pm
sparkyhall wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:40 pm
@JacoFourie You can start a Pi by pulling GPIO3 on the normal header low (short pin #5 to #6), there is no need to use the 'Run' pins for this.

Hi. You need to enable I2C to use the UPS HAT

http://www.raspberrypiwiki.com/index.ph ... _HAT_Board

When you do that that method to start the Pi no longer works. Or is there a way around it ?
IC2 is an open drain interface so it is still safe to briefly short pin 5 to 6 to start the Pi, even with IC2 enabled and the UPS HAT attached. I am assuming that the HAT is designed correctly and uses a open drain/collector interface for pin 5.

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bensimmo
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:47 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:25 am
He may have altered it by soldering the pins (which is part of the Pi design).
But that does not mean it arised because he did that, somewhere some proof would be needed to show it did/did not arise from that.

WiFi not working should have nothing to do with it.
Starting may have because it is linked to the starting.

Leave it to the officials to say what is/what is not, since it has nothing to do with us really.
We can only muse as long as we like, unless you know your consumer rights in whichever country.
No, you need to prove the alteration did NOT damage the board. Because the failure rate on Pi's coming from the factory is incredibly low, that will be difficult. Best way is to test a new Pi before you alter it....
I was taking it from the wording of the warranty that was quoted, the warranty is not with you (RPF) but the person/company that sold it. (At least in the EU).

I would at least want an explanation from that company how soldering the run pins (by a skilled solderer or not) could damage the WiFi.

They may be low rates of problems, but with 10M (or however many Pi3 there are now) from the many factories making them, there is still a chance as always.

Yes I do agree test it was working before hand is the sensible option.

Anyway RPT has spoken so that's their stance if you buy direct from them.

JacoFourie
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:52 pm

sparkyhall wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 pm
JacoFourie wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:28 pm
sparkyhall wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:40 pm
@JacoFourie You can start a Pi by pulling GPIO3 on the normal header low (short pin #5 to #6), there is no need to use the 'Run' pins for this.

Hi. You need to enable I2C to use the UPS HAT

http://www.raspberrypiwiki.com/index.ph ... _HAT_Board

When you do that that method to start the Pi no longer works. Or is there a way around it ?
IC2 is an open drain interface so it is still safe to briefly short pin 5 to 6 to start the Pi, even with IC2 enabled and the UPS HAT attached. I am assuming that the HAT is designed correctly and uses a open drain/collector interface for pin 5.

The Pi does noting if you short those pins with I2C enabled.

Heater
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Re: Warrenty of the Pi ?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:58 pm

This is silly. One can't expect a vendor to warranty a device after you have attacked it with a soldering iron.

"Warranty void if modified" should be obvious enough to anyone.

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