broe23
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 am

Heater wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:47 am
AllanGH,
...it is possible that one could fashion a small parabolic reflector out of heavy foil, or light-gauge aluminium sheet, and place it "behind" the remotely-located node, aimed in the direction of the house node. I have actually had excellent luck in doing this with some longer distance WiFi nodes on networks, now and then. The favorable aspect being that there is no actual modification made to the unit, therefore no regulatory prohibitions would apply.
Actually, regulations do apply in that situation also.

In short, the more directional your antenna (higher gain) the less power you are allowed to pump into it. See for example these explanations:
http://www.bitstorm.com/fcc-regulations
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wireless ... tenna.html
Again, you are not changing the transmitting power of the device. You are just creating a better antenna to pick up signals. It works on the same principle, that you deal with when trying to get your home Wifi Gateway that has external antennas, to pick up a unit on say your property that could be up to an acre. It will not get the ABC's to come after you, unless a Ham operator gets nosy and tries to blame your home made antenna as the problem, without showing you first on their meters that there are some that the CATV companies use for checking Ingress.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

broe23
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:22 am

Heater wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:15 am
I thought the rest of the regulation was so that the government could collect huge piles of money. For example:
$19.3 billion for 70MHz of spectrum : https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... across-us/

:)
What does T-Mobile purchasing large segments of that band have to do with wifi. It is zero. The reason that T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T need that new spectrum, is to be able to use it for 5G aka 5th Generation, which is going to push the service for HD voice, into the next level of communications, which will allow for AT&T to transmit video to homes and along with having better clarity with HD Voice.

Wifi does not evey operate in that new Cellular Spectrum and might never will be, since right now due to Moore's law, they have not come out with the Wifi Chipset and gateways. That part has to do with the choke point being WAN to LAN, for providers like AT&T.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

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bensimmo
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am

broe23 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:22 am
Heater wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:15 am
I thought the rest of the regulation was so that the government could collect huge piles of money. For example:
$19.3 billion for 70MHz of spectrum : https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... across-us/

:)
What does T-Mobile purchasing large segments of that band have to do with wifi. It is zero. The reason that T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T need that new spectrum, is to be able to use it for 5G aka 5th Generation, which is going to push the service for HD voice, into the next level of communications, which will allow for AT&T to transmit video to homes and along with having better clarity with HD Voice.

Wifi does not evey operate in that new Cellular Spectrum and might never will be, since right now due to Moore's law, they have not come out with the Wifi Chipset and gateways. That part has to do with the choke point being WAN to LAN, for providers like AT&T.
It has to do with a bit of light hearted banter and we had drifted into regulation stuff :-)

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AllanGH
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:12 am

broe23 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 am
In short, the more directional your antenna (higher gain) the less power you are allowed to pump into it.
Your proposition being that the nodes being discussed exceed 4W power (or even one Watt) at the radiating element?
With higher gain directive antennas, the FCC relaxes EIRP limitations. When using antennas having a gain of at least 6dBi gain, the FCC allows operation up to 4 watts EIRP, which is 1 watt device output power plus 6dBi of gain. The reason higher EIRPs are acceptable is that the higher gain antennas are more directive, which reduces the possibility of RF interference with other systems.
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Pithagoros
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:41 am

broe23 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:12 am
No one is doubling anything when you attach to the board the external connection for a whip or soldering one on there. The pi does not have that ability and the max that you can go with wifi is only 100mw, which is what it would be here in the U.S.. Gateways that are made to go long distances for wifi, can operate up to 1000mw, depending on the model. The point is to stop sweating something that you cannot physically change on the pi, for how much it can transmit for power wise.
The suggestion about doubling was just an arbitrary one for illustration, but typically achievable for EIRP by getting 3dBm of gain on the antenna the rule of 3.

The pi with its onboard antenna as tested is likely tested in a standardised void and I am sure that the maximums set by the regulators will have been calculated to allow some headroom for variance in EIRP due to environment. There would be nothing illegal or even necessarily intentional about placing the Pi antenna within 1/4λ of a reflector.

And I'm not suggesting that a carefully placed reflector would give 3dBm.

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AllanGH
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:53 am

Pithagoros wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:41 am
or even necessarily intentional about placing the Pi antenna within 1/4λ of a reflector.
Noted. Accidents *do* occur frequently.
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mugurdi
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:21 am

Hello,
micksulley wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:16 pm
I have a Pi 3 installed in my garage, which seems to be on the limit of wireless reception from the house network. I can sometimes get a connection but not always.
When you say "get a connection", to what receiver do you mean? Smartphone? RPi? If the signal arrives even if it is weak, I would put a wifi repeater next to the RPi, a cheap one like this
https://www.ebay.es/itm/300Mbps-Wifi-Ra ... SwJWFaaCp1

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mahjongg
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:00 pm

broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:12 am
AllanGH wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:12 pm
For those interested in the certification application documents, please refer to the following link:
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ ... ABCB-RPI32
It is a moot point, because hacking the board on your own, is not breaking any regulations. Heathkit used to sell everything from breadboard breakout kits to Ham Radio Equipment, TV's and computers. The manufacturer that had the original board made, only have to live up to the rules for the FCC filing. The consumer can do what they want with that SBC, they just need to know that if they cause problems and get some Ham Radio operator next to them reporting interference as what happened with some Plasma TV's, you would only get a cease request by the Ham Radio operator if they can prove how the leakage happened.

All of this crying that it is illegal for what the OP is thinking about, the answer is that it is not illegal, because they are just looking at a idea of making the Pi to have a better wifi reception and would be no different than taking a desktop or laptop and hooking up a external antenna to a wifi card and placing that antenna where you get a better signal.

So the moral to the story boys and girls is, there is zero liability for what the OP wants to do, because it breaks zero laws.
tell that to the judge.... :twisted: :roll:

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mahjongg
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:04 pm

broe23 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 am
Again, you are not changing the transmitting power of the device. You are just creating a better antenna to pick up signals.
NO!
An Antenna always works two ways, if you increase its ability to receive signals you simultaneously increase its ability to transmit them, and there is no way around this.
So yes, you ARE changing the transmitting power of the device...

Paul Hutch
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:28 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:00 pm
AllanGH wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:12 pm
So the moral to the story boys and girls is, there is zero liability for what the OP wants to do, because it breaks zero laws.
tell that to the judge.... :twisted: :roll:
The following is completely USA/FCC specific. AllanGH is correct, FCC rules allow end users to try anything they want without criminal or financial penalties. However the moment you are found to be interfering with the radio service on another persons property the FCC will order you to stop using the device. This puts you in jeopardy of extreme penalties if you do not fully comply. Technically the FCC has the power to impose the extreme penalties the moment they find you are still interfering, however the usual, but not guaranteed, action is to confiscate the offending equipment. So USA residents, feel free to try anything but if the FCC comes knocking and tells you to turn it off, do it and don't turn it on again until you are 100% certain you will no longer cause interference.

Also be aware that this only applies to hobbyist situations. If you are doing something like this as a business and not at the businesses official location you must obtain an experimentation license form the FCC. Getting the license is very easy and IIRC, it's been decade since I needed one, it costs well under $1000.00 and allows multiple sites to be specified for the experimentation.

Heater
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:00 pm

Yes, and in the UK transmitting without a licence can get you into hot water. Which is what you might be doing if you are pumping out to much power in the unlicensed WIFI spectrum by means of a high gain antenna.

As we found when testing the HF transceivers my friend built in the early 1970's. We were too young to get into serious trouble with that but it did end in the confiscation of the equipment. Which was a downer as it took ages to build it and was not cheap.

Paul Hutch
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:13 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:00 pm
Yes, and in the UK transmitting without a licence can get you into hot water. Which is what you might be doing if you are pumping out to much power in the unlicensed WIFI spectrum by means of a high gain antenna.

As we found when testing the HF transceivers my friend built in the early 1970's. We were too young to get into serious trouble with that but it did end in the confiscation of the equipment. Which was a downer as it took ages to build it and was not cheap.
Thanks for the information, I know almost nothing of UK regulations/laws.

So to summarize, if you're in the UK don't do it, if you're in the USA go ahead and do it but be prepared to stop if told to by the FCC.

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bensimmo
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm

In the UK do it too, police have too many more important things to do and will not waste the money stopping a hobbiest.
As they'll not bother if people play loud music all night, steal things, take drugs etc.

Too busy looking after football matches or other large events.

And I certainly would worry about what happened ~45years ago.
Many laws have changed since then and society has changed too, for better or worse.

Heater
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 pm

bensimmo,

Certainly what happened to us boys decades ago is of little relevance to anyone today. Except possibly as an anecdotal lesson. Feel free to ignore it.

Certainly law and society has changed. But I'm pretty sure that what we did then is still illegal today.

This thread's debate is polarized between two camps. There are those arguing that one should stay within the law. Then there are those saying ignore the law, do whatever you want because you can probably get away with it.

Order verses anarchy.

Which world do you want to live in?

Pithagoros
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 pm

Indeed, there is a universe of difference between building a HF transmitter and improving the antenna gain on a WiFi device. In all likelihood, if somebody was caught out with HF transmissions it would be down to the local licensed amateurs who can get very territorial. I once got the local prissy folk interested when I moved to a new area because I'm not in the QRZ database.

If they are being honest, even the world's biggest prig would have to admit that it is totally unrealistic for OfCom enforcement to stop playing whack-a-mole with pirate radio broadcasters so that they can waste time and public money trying to detect undetectably improved WiFi propagation. Just ridiculous.

I was so inclined I would have no compunction about enhancing a WiFi device using antenna gain. I seriously doubt that doing so would infringe any law in any way that could be proven and even if it did I would not care a jot, and neither would anyone else because they would not be affected enough to notice nor able to detect it, and suggesting this is "anarchy" is a melodramatic straw man.

Heater
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:08 pm

Pithagoros,
...suggesting this is "anarchy" is a melodramatic straw man.
Perhaps.

A couple of years ago we were installing equipment in the middle of San Jose, California. Which is quite challenging given that WIFI channels in such places tend to be pretty crowded.

What made it worse was an illegal transmission from a nearby company office. An office of CISCO as it happens. We asked them to stop doing that, pointing out it was against FCC rules. Which they did.

Luckily we don't quite have anarchy yet :)

On the whole, I have to agree with you. Quite likely one can get away with it. I'm not about to suggest everyone go ahead though.

mfa298
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:15 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 pm
This thread's debate is polarized between two camps. There are those arguing that one should stay within the law. Then there are those saying ignore the law, do whatever you want because you can probably get away with it.
I'd suggest there's a third middle ground in there, some people will state where the law stands, whether you choose to lusten to that and stay within the law is up to you. Very much like speed limits. You know what it is and why it's there, if you choose to speed then that's up to you, if you then get caught it's purely your fault.
Heater wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:08 pm
A couple of years ago we were installing equipment in the middle of San Jose, California. Which is quite challenging given that WIFI channels in such places tend to be pretty crowded.

What made it worse was an illegal transmission from a nearby company office. An office of CISCO as it happens. We asked them to stop doing that, pointing out it was against FCC rules. Which they did.
And that's an excellent example of why running higher power than needed (regardless of whether it's legal or not) is bad. If everyone used the minimum power required their signals would be more contained and there'd be less interference.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm

We recently moved into a new house with WiFi eating walls. After some research I ordered a TP-Link AV2000 Powerline Network kit and we have been very pleased with the results. I have a more detailed review in the Network section, but here's a summary.

Performance is great. Nowhere near the marketing/advertised speeds, and not as fast as direct wired Cat5E/Cat6 Ethernet, but still impressive. We are on 100/100 megabit FiOS internet, and we get full performance all the way to the furthest corner of the house. Our slowest powerline node is operating at over 600Mbps, which is far from the 2Gbps advertised speed, but still many times faster than our ISP speed.

This is how our powerline network performs.
Image

The big advantage is that you can install this yourself in just a few minutes, and if you rearrange things in your house later, it's simple to move your network ports. We were so happy with the performance we got from our first kit we ordered a second kit which included a dual band wireless AC1200 access point to improve WiFi coverage downstairs. Note that a powerline access point is more secure than a WiFi range extender, and it can be located anywhere you have an outlet, even where there is no WiFi reception.

See my review for more information.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=204468
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:06 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 pm
Order verses anarchy.

Which world do you want to live in?
As absolutes? neither one. I want enough order that I don't have to police my surrounds, and enough anarchy not to be looking over my shoulder all the time.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:17 pm

Pithagoros wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 pm
Indeed, there is a universe of difference between building a HF transmitter and improving the antenna gain on a WiFi device. In all likelihood, if somebody was caught out with HF transmissions it would be down to the local licensed amateurs who can get very territorial. I once got the local prissy folk interested when I moved to a new area because I'm not in the QRZ database.

If they are being honest, even the world's biggest prig would have to admit that it is totally unrealistic for OfCom enforcement to stop playing whack-a-mole with pirate radio broadcasters so that they can waste time and public money trying to detect undetectably improved WiFi propagation. Just ridiculous.
My father was in the habit of making audio tapes of broadcasts (this issue was decided by the US Supreme Court to be legal many years before the Sony Betamax case said the same thing about video recording of broadcasts). In the mid-1960s, we had a neighbor who was a ham operator. His signal tended to bleed into the audio portion of the TV broadcast band. My father politely told him that he needed better shielding on his transmitter to prevent this. He basically blew off the advice. One day when my father was recording a program, the negihbor came in very clearly, giving his call letters. My father made a copy of that portion of the tape and mailed it to the FCC. Our neighbor got a visit from a delegation in suits telling him quite firmly to (a) shut down his transmitter, (b) keep it shut down until he did proper shielding and filtering, and (c) he'd better not get caught interfering with commercial broadcasts again.

I think the takeaway here is that if someone tells you that you have a problem, it's good practice to pay attention. And whether you've been told you have a problem or not, if you interfere with your neighbors, you do so at your own risk no matter how well you think you get along with them.

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bensimmo
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:35 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm
We recently moved into a new house with WiFi eating walls. After some research I ordered a TP-Link AV2000 Powerline Network kit and we have been very pleased with the results. I have a more detailed review in the Network section, but here's a summary.

Performance is great. Nowhere near the marketing/advertised speeds, and not as fast as direct wired Cat5E/Cat6 Ethernet, but still impressive. We are on 100/100 megabit FiOS internet, and we get full performance all the way to the furthest corner of the house. Our slowest powerline node is operating at over 600Mbps, which is far from the 2Gbps advertised speed, but still many times faster than our ISP speed.

This is how our powerline network performs.
Image

The big advantage is that you can install this yourself in just a few minutes, and if you rearrange things in your house later, it's simple to move your network ports. We were so happy with the performance we got from our first kit we ordered a second kit which included a dual band wireless AC1200 access point to improve WiFi coverage downstairs. Note that a powerline access point is more secure than a WiFi range extender, and it can be located anywhere you have an outlet, even where there is no WiFi reception.

See my review for more information.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=204468
I use the older AV600 version and they work well, they are fast enough for anything I do only one or two drop below my 250Mbit Internet every now and again
UK working, modern wiring setup, consumer box etc
Same in my old house.

Faster an more reliable than any of my .ac WiFi. Gigabit hubs in them so also fine for a local 3x network.

I'll be looking at the AV2000 for additional sockets.

hippy
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:06 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm
In the UK do it too, police have too many more important things to do and will not waste the money stopping a hobbiest.
What other criminality do you encourage people to indulge in ?

You are probably right; the police do have more important things to do. Like chasing worse criminals; some of which started small and were encouraged to not worry about their criminality because they'd never be caught, were led to believe their crime is acceptable or they'd simply get away with it.

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bensimmo
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Re: Extending Wireless Range

Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:53 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:06 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm
In the UK do it too, police have too many more important things to do and will not waste the money stopping a hobbiest.
What other criminality do you encourage people to indulge in ?

You are probably right; the police do have more important things to do. Like chasing worse criminals; some of which started small and were encouraged to not worry about their criminality because they'd never be caught, were led to believe their crime is acceptable or they'd simply get away with it.
Parking fully across the pavement, spray painting 'art' on property, use your mobile phones in cars, while doing your makeup, faster than the speed limit, a bit of petty theft, whatever they can get away with, nobody cares now and those that do can't do anything about it. So why bother really. Join them ;-)

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