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Bencom
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Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:17 am

[Mod: Changed thread title to something less insulting]

I note a trend in that images are being supplied with one of the most important aspects of Linux crippled. There has always been a method in Debian installs at least to set a static ip address at install time. This is the primary method to connect a machine not DHCP. Arch for the PI is even worse.

Can I ask that this aspect not be ignored in favor of the easy way out (DHCP).

Perhaps the author of raspi-config will lead the way.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:30 am

Code: Select all

man ifconfig
The developer minimum knowledge implies that a keyboard is available, and so an ifconfig is possible, or that a headless remote is used, in which case the keyboard is superfluous, and non DHCP static IPs can not be used as default, as this would assume prior knowledge of the users network. This implies DHCP.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:31 am

jackokring wrote:

Code: Select all

man ifconfig
The developer minimum knowledge implies that a keyboard is available, and so an ifconfig is possible, or that a headless remote is used, in which case the keyboard is superfluous, and non DHCP static IPs can not be used as default, as this would assume prior knowledge of the users network. This implies DHCP.
Raspbian requires a run once script to set things up. It requires a keyboard.
This is the place to ask the question dhcp or static and change to static if required.

I imply nothing. I state this feature is important.

I simply copy a new /etc/network/interfaces to the sd card when I create it. A new user may not have this knowledge hence guidance at first boot can only enhance a distribution such as Raspbian.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:51 am

Important is based on perspective. It is a nice feature but on a list of 1 to 10 considering they are still working out a lot of stuff with the images testing, and rebuilding, etc. I would put it fairly low to medium.

If your on a static network you setup all your machines manually this would mean you have some knowledge.

My cheap ISP router has dynamic dhcp reserve. Meaning I get the MAC address off the device and I can tell the modem what IP to give that device. Not all feature this but it gives me the option of having static ip's without configuring the device itself.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:33 am

Bencom wrote:
jackokring wrote:

Code: Select all

man ifconfig
The developer minimum knowledge implies that a keyboard is available, and so an ifconfig is possible, or that a headless remote is used, in which case the keyboard is superfluous, and non DHCP static IPs can not be used as default, as this would assume prior knowledge of the users network. This implies DHCP.
Raspbian requires a run once script to set things up. It requires a keyboard.
This is the place to ask the question dhcp or static and change to static if required.

I imply nothing. I state this feature is important.

I simply copy a new /etc/network/interfaces to the sd card when I create it. A new user may not have this knowledge hence guidance at first boot can only enhance a distribution such as Raspbian.
I set up mine and did not need a keyboard plugged in usb, it was all done by a remote ssh connection. I only connected a keyboard a while later when testing omxplayer at another location.

The programs ssh and sftp work fine over my network, and raspi-config works over the network too.

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install fuse-emulator-gtk
startx
fuse
And press the return key a few times.
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Bencom
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:52 am

jackokring wrote:
Bencom wrote:
jackokring wrote:

Code: Select all

man ifconfig
The developer minimum knowledge implies that a keyboard is available, and so an ifconfig is possible, or that a headless remote is used, in which case the keyboard is superfluous, and non DHCP static IPs can not be used as default, as this would assume prior knowledge of the users network. This implies DHCP.
Raspbian requires a run once script to set things up. It requires a keyboard.
This is the place to ask the question dhcp or static and change to static if required.

I imply nothing. I state this feature is important.

I simply copy a new /etc/network/interfaces to the sd card when I create it. A new user may not have this knowledge hence guidance at first boot can only enhance a distribution such as Raspbian.
I set up mine and did not need a keyboard plugged in usb, it was all done by a remote ssh connection. I only connected a keyboard a while later when testing omxplayer at another location.

The programs ssh and sftp work fine over my network, and raspi-config works over the network too.
Raspbian requires running raspi-config from the command line at first boot to enable ssh which is a moot point when you do not have dhcp. If you do not have dhcp you must set a static ip. Your statement is only correct if you are running another distribution other than Raspbian that enables ssh out of the box. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:57 am

sshd is already running on the pi as a server. ssh is run on the client connecting to the pi.

dhcpd (or equivalent windows or mac-osx box stuff) needs to be running on the client (via connection sharing for example), so that dhcpclient can get a result on the pi.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:57 am

Bencom wrote: This is the primary method to connect a machine not DHCP.
On the contrary, DHCP has been is the primary method I've encountered for quite some years. In fact, static IP are quite hard to come by in the office environment. My Linux boxes all used DHCP out of the box and I had to set them up specifically to use static IP when I had issues. Windows defaults to DHCP.

But I'll ping asb with the request to see if its possible to modify the config script to include static IP.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:11 am

I agree with the OP that this is an important facility. Not crucial. However, probably one of the easier functions to add to raspi-config.

I am eternally grateful for the unpaid efforts of many developers with infinite wish lists. However should the discussion should be 'when' not 'if'? The fact that sshd is enabled by default has an implication that most uses will be from a static or known IP. A powerful additional argument is that RPi is primarily an educational project doing now what the BBC and ZX81 did many years ago. Then it was all about the computer. Now networks are almost as important. Understanding the LAN can be an important first step. Exposing IP information and simple reconfiguration is an important first step.

Well that's my story.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:33 am

People... You are getting off track.
It is not professional to release a distribution such as Raspbian without an easy method of setting the machines IP address. This should be done at the command prompt in a program such as raspi-config.

It has nothing to do with internet ip addresses as most machines should be running within a private network as I do. If I want to access a port on the RPi I need to set up a pin hole port forward to my gateway and then on through my Linux ipmasq gateway firewall to my local net.

I struggle to understand why the point I have made is not understood.
It is very simple. DHCP is not required to make a Linux machine go.
Therefor total reliance on it and not allowing a user to set an ip address at first boot as Raspbian does, is an oversight that needs correcting sooner or later. I say sooner but hey it takes me ten seconds to copy and edit a stock interfaces file to a mounted sd. Removing barriers to entry is supposed to be the Raspberry thing.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:37 am

Bencom wrote:
Raspbian requires running raspi-config from the command line at first boot to enable ssh which is a moot point when you do not have dhcp. If you do not have dhcp you must set a static ip. Your statement is only correct if you are running another distribution other than Raspbian that enables ssh out of the box. Correct me if I am wrong.
I also managed SSH before config script, All I had to do was find out what IP it had been designated. I think this might have been occidentals (adafruit version of Raspbian ) it just depends whether SSH is set on by default. I then ran the config script across the network. I think the idea that Adafruit is coming up with is that you can have a pi that you can configure and write programs on over the network.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:41 am

brainsys wrote:I agree with the OP that this is an important facility. Not crucial. However, probably one of the easier functions to add to raspi-config.

I am eternally grateful for the unpaid efforts of many developers with infinite wish lists. However should the discussion should be 'when' not 'if'? The fact that sshd is enabled by default has an implication that most uses will be from a static or known IP. A powerful additional argument is that RPi is primarily an educational project doing now what the BBC and ZX81 did many years ago. Then it was all about the computer. Now networks are almost as important. Understanding the LAN can be an important first step. Exposing IP information and simple reconfiguration is an important first step.

Well that's my story.
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Thanks for the support. I hope someone is listening.

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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:44 am

I think we all see where you are coming from but the root of Pi is an educational tool for kids. Learning how to configure networking falls under learning. Having a simple click and go approach takes the learning out of Pi. It is great for all the advanced guys out there setting up servers and media centers but it hardly seems mandatory for students who are in a controlled environment learning programming.
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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:06 am

I see the moderator is listening at least. Life is full of thankless jobs.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:26 am

Bencom wrote:People... You are getting off track.
It is not professional to release a distribution such as Raspbian without an easy method of setting the machines IP address. This should be done at the command prompt in a program such as raspi-config.

It has nothing to do with internet ip addresses as most machines should be running within a private network as I do. If I want to access a port on the RPi I need to set up a pin hole port forward to my gateway and then on through my Linux ipmasq gateway firewall to my local net.

I struggle to understand why the point I have made is not understood.
It is very simple. DHCP is not required to make a Linux machine go.
Therefor total reliance on it and not allowing a user to set an ip address at first boot as Raspbian does, is an oversight that needs correcting sooner or later. I say sooner but hey it takes me ten seconds to copy and edit a stock interfaces file to a mounted sd. Removing barriers to entry is supposed to be the Raspberry thing.
Please desist from saying things like 'it's not professional'. In your opinion maybe it isn't, but in my opinion it's not professional to make a request for something by first insulting the people you are asking to do it by calling them unprofessional!

As to DHCP - it's used by the vast majority of people out there and is the default for Windows and Linux nowadays. I use DHCP on my home network without issue, as will most other people. It is NOT essential in the modern work or home network, and it's certainly not unprofessional to not have a simple way of setting a static address.

However, I have emailed the guy who did the config script to consider adding static configuration to it, although how high on the priority list it will be I don't know.
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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Bencom wrote:People... You are getting off track.
It is not professional to release a distribution such as Raspbian without an easy method of setting the machines IP address. This should be done at the command prompt in a program such as raspi-config.

It has nothing to do with internet ip addresses as most machines should be running within a private network as I do. If I want to access a port on the RPi I need to set up a pin hole port forward to my gateway and then on through my Linux ipmasq gateway firewall to my local net.

I struggle to understand why the point I have made is not understood.
It is very simple. DHCP is not required to make a Linux machine go.
Therefor total reliance on it and not allowing a user to set an ip address at first boot as Raspbian does, is an oversight that needs correcting sooner or later. I say sooner but hey it takes me ten seconds to copy and edit a stock interfaces file to a mounted sd. Removing barriers to entry is supposed to be the Raspberry thing.
I have emailed the guy who did the config script to consider adding static configuration to it.
Thanks.

Can you also point out the bad practice of setting all RPi using a distribution to a single dns server.
By allowing users to configure this setting the load can be spread amongst user isp's dns servers.
The education requirement is fulfilled with a line or two of help in raspi-config.
Name Server: Your isp's name server. Primary and optional secondary.
Again, these are things set up at install time in most distributions.

Just an educational tool. Wrong. As with all net appliances there is an obligation to be a good net citizen.

Why have I not said something until now? Over clocking additions when base configuration has not been attended to. To me this is cause for concern. Why have others not seen the need for this base feature (config static ip address and dns)? Why has an advanced feature such as over clocking, which has no educational value or usability value, been prioritized for quick release? Do I need to say any more? How can I not insult someone when I have to say what needs to be said?

The top priority needs to be that the RPi boots up out of the box in both a dhcp environment or a fixed ip environment where dhcp is not available. Only then should enhancements be made.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Bencom wrote: Can you also point out the bad practice of setting all RPi using a distribution to a single dns server.
By allowing users to configure this setting the load can be spread amongst user isp's dns servers.
Isn't that quite happily achieved using DHCP? Another thought: is there anywhere where DHCP is not available where the user is either allowed to plug in a network device, or is unaware of how to set their own static ip?

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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:10 pm

Well, I personally think the last line of your post is complete nonsense. The stuff you are complaining about is nowhere near a high priority. For example, you want people to be able to enter a DNS sever during config, where 99% of the people using a Raspi will have NO IDEA what a DNS server is. How can that POSSIBLY be a priority?

And if you continue to rubbish the current development process (which is the foundations decision, not yours) and continue with these ad hominem attacks I will ban you, albeit for only a few days as a first offence.
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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:00 pm

Bencom wrote:[Mod: Changed thread title to something less insulting]

I note a trend in that images are being supplied with one of the most important aspects of Linux crippled. There has always been a method in Debian installs at least to set a static ip address at install time. This is the primary method to connect a machine not DHCP. Arch for the PI is even worse.

Can I ask that this aspect not be ignored in favor of the easy way out (DHCP).

Perhaps the author of raspi-config will lead the way.
I don't see you offering to write the necessary code to make this happen.....

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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:05 pm

While I can see the point of desiring a raspi-config entry to set a static IP address, it also strikes me as the kind of feature that, if you need it to the point of looking for it, you already know how to set one...or can easily find out.

As a teaching device, shouldn't the Pi steer people *away* from using canned scripts to do settings, at least after initial set up? How many people (who don't know how to do it manually) are going to expect raspi-config to set a static IP, and would those people know what settings to tell the script to use? The script would have to be given the primary parameters, anyway... (IP address, mask, and gateway address at least.)

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:02 pm

Bencom wrote:Can you also point out the bad practice of setting all RPi using a distribution to a single dns server.
By allowing users to configure this setting the load can be spread amongst user isp's dns servers.
There is no bad practice here at all. The distro will use whichever and however many DNS resolvers are returned by the local DHCP server. Without DHCP, no resolvers will be reachable, so the setting is irrelevant.

Even if you deviate partially from the standard configuration, by setting a static IP but not configuring your own resolvers, the default setting of 8.8.8.8 is still absolutely fine. It is not a single server but a worldwide network, load balanced using anycast routing. In many cases it is actually faster than the systems your ISP would recommend.
Why have others not seen the need for this base feature (config static ip address and dns)?
Personally I assign static IPs by associating them with the clients' MAC addresses on the DHCP server. This keeps all the settings in one place and avoids the need to configure the clients at all.

Most people who understand enough to allocate IPs manually will probably have realised that raspi-config is not the only or even necessarily the preferred way to configure the system. It is just a simple tool to get beginners up and running with the right keyboard layout etc. It could never support every possible administrative task, so it is wrong to criticise the whole distribution on the grounds that a particular, somewhat specialised, situation is not specifically offered.

Incidentally, if you want a full set of install questions you might consider trying the Raspbian Installer, or debootstrap, instead of booting a pre-installed image file.

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Re: Developers making life difficult (DHCP).

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:27 pm

jojopi wrote:
Bencom wrote:Can you also point out the bad practice of setting all RPi using a distribution to a single dns server.
By allowing users to configure this setting the load can be spread amongst user isp's dns servers.
There is no bad practice here at all. The distro will use whichever and however many DNS resolvers are returned by the local DHCP server. Without DHCP, no resolvers will be reachable, so the setting is irrelevant.

Even if you deviate partially from the standard configuration, by setting a static IP but not configuring your own resolvers, the default setting of 8.8.8.8 is still absolutely fine. It is not a single server but a worldwide network, load balanced using anycast routing. In many cases it is actually faster than the systems your ISP would recommend.
Why have others not seen the need for this base feature (config static ip address and dns)?
Personally I assign static IPs by associating them with the clients' MAC addresses on the DHCP server. This keeps all the settings in one place and avoids the need to configure the clients at all.

Most people who understand enough to allocate IPs manually will probably have realised that raspi-config is not the only or even necessarily the preferred way to configure the system. It is just a simple tool to get beginners up and running with the right keyboard layout etc. It could never support every possible administrative task, so it is wrong to criticise the whole distribution on the grounds that a particular, somewhat specialised, situation is not specifically offered.

Incidentally, if you want a full set of install questions you might consider trying the Raspbian Installer, or debootstrap, instead of booting a pre-installed image file.
I'm with you. Setting a static IP is not "the norm". Would it hurt to be able to do it in raspi-config? No. But to complain that it isn't, is not helpful. This is supposed to be a community. To complain that someone who is donating their time to the community, isn't doing things "the way I want them done", is wrong. If someone thinks adding something to raspi-config is important, let them donate THEIR time to write the script and give it to the community.

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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Actually, I don't have a problem with people coming up with suggestions for config or raspi features when they may not be able to provide those features themselves. I do have a problem with the way some of the suggestions are phrased, as you may have noticed..
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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Bencom wrote:[Mod: Changed thread title to something less insulting]

I note a trend in that images are being supplied with one of the most important aspects of Linux crippled. There has always been a method in Debian installs at least to set a static ip address at install time. This is the primary method to connect a machine not DHCP. Arch for the PI is even worse.

Can I ask that this aspect not be ignored in favor of the easy way out (DHCP).

Perhaps the author of raspi-config will lead the way.
I've been sort of assuming that dhcp is what most people will have out of the box. Those who know they want static IP setup are likely to be able to make the necessary changes to /etc/network/interfaces themselves. I also don't want to provide support for all config options ever - just a few really useful things for first-time users. That said, I'd happily consider patches.

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Re: Request for Static IP setup in raspi-config

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:35 pm

We desperately need a cooling fan too ;-)

People have pointed out that people who need static IPs know how to fix them. And most others wouldn't know a DNS if it dissolved them. That's true up to this point. But I re-iterate RPi is an educational 'toy' for kids. A prime aim to re-orientate them from the PC client model they have lived with up to date.

Getting them to think of this diddly-thing as a full blown server is game changer. Those of us who became SysAdmins many moons ago may have forgotten the crash courses in mastering networking, DNS et al. But we still had GUIs to give us a picture and configure. These days ifconfig and nano are my friends. Neither are an intuitive first step. But I wonder if we expect too much of our young.

You do have to begin with, say, get Apache running in three clicks if you are going to interest and challenge enough to begin hacking httpd.conf. That's why I support the idea of setting basic networking factors in raspi-config. Sorry Ben my support is not as full blooded as yours. I'm afraid you committed the cardinal sin of upsetting developers. That's a lesson worth learning if you are ever to get them moonlighting for you ...

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