adlambert

Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:09 pm

If people want their R-Pi to be a tablet then it isn't going to be too much of a stretch to get hold of a touch display and hook it all up.

That's what it's all about, you will make of it whatever you want.

stuporhero
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:52 am

TheLaw said:


Well, in explanation of my own trollish posts: linuxy things seem to attract a lot of fan-boys who hate "the Steve" and "the Bill".  They have a lot of testosterone in their system, and I still have some too, so I react to it.


Surely this would be "The Steve" and "The Bill" lovers, with the RasPi running Linux? I personally thought "The Bill" was a great TV show.

Andre_P
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:36 pm

In my humble opinion I think some of these people who are overly critical of the what the Raspberry Pi is forget

1. the purpose of the project

2. the purpose of the project (repeated to get through some peoples skulls)

3. the fact that this is done in peoples own time

4. the fact that this is a charity.

5. Generally something that is designed by committee tends to be totally useless with exceptional time overruns.

If people want to create some thing 'better', different, faster then there are several options for them

1. create an expansion for the Raspberry Pi that satisfies their needs, it might be nice to share it out so other people can use it.

2. Design their own processor board and get it out there, note that it is assumed that they will also have to accept their own critics points of views.

Don't get me wrong, throwing ideas out there is fine, being overly negative is not as it doesn't progress anything.

I remember I bitched for a while about a project being canned for dubious reasons. I bitched hard and then light dawned, I can either continue bitching or I can get off my fat lazy arse and do something about it.

I did something about it and I feel a LOT better rather than the grouch that I would have become.

But my perspective is possibly unique, I still think it's cool getting my NAS to run SVN even though it was not designed to do so .

shaurz
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:42 pm

riFFraFF said:

It's kind of a clear message though, when a single little chip can be leveraged to function as any kind of PC, that the world has moved on and the type of devices we're accustomed to may soon become quaint relics.
We are seeing two converging trends (both enabled by Moore's Law). ARM-based SoCs are becoming more capable of taking over tasks previously requiring a PC, and concerns about energy usage and battery life are pushing PCs (and even servers) toward lower-power and more integrated solutions.

Eventually the PC will become an SoC. We have seen this trend unfold over the past decade as more transistors can be fit on a chip and using them to make more complex processors or adding more processor cores has not always been the best way to use them. First we saw integration of cache memory, then memory controllers and multiple cores, then graphics (AMD Fusion, Sandy Bridge) and northbridge functions. It's only a matter of time before we have the whole PC motherboard on one chip.

Personally I am cheering on the bottom-up approach of starting with an ARM SoC and making it more powerful and capable over time while keeping the energy usage constant. I don't want to see mega-ARMs with one of those massive block heatsinks on it!

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:18 pm

I think that it is going to be easier to move Arms and low power up in to PC space, than PC processors down to the low power mobile space - look at Atom - nowhere near where it needs to be powerwise.

We are very very close to PC on a chip now - the Raspi only needs one extra chip, and putting ethernet/wireless on a SoC is not a huge task.

That said, some of the more extreme Arm devices on the horizon are going to have problems dissipating the amount of heat they are going to generate - it's just a consequence of high clock rates an 28/40nm process. Heatsinks might be around for longer than people think!
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redpicman
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:36 pm

My cents worth. I wish the rasberry pi every success. People think that students need massive computers with lots of memory to be able to program. Well maybe later on when they start using memory intensive game engines, but everybody who started to learn to program (and I dont care for the odd exception) started programming using simple tools with low usage requirements. Certainly at school level this platform is more than adequate. And let us not forget the price. I intend to by the rasberry pi simply to find out what it can do for the money. Even if the RPi did not totally live up to my expectations, and from what I have read it will, that would not stop me buying any future generations of RPi that comes out.

Why do I say this, because like the majority of posters in here, we like small, we like cheap and we like to see what can be done with this device. And finally buying the RPi for me is my way of showing support for the charity. Say if RPi is phenomenally successful, the Rpi might be the precursor to other chip manufactures offering their products to the charity.

This has the potential to go big, fast. And that can only benefit the next generation of programmers.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:17 pm

Just to back the original poster up, I have seen quite a lot of forceful anti-Raspberry Pi language on other forums, ranging from "no way will it be $25, it'll be $200", through "it's a con, they are not a charity" to "it's a waste of time, but xxxx instead". Mostly this seems to be from people who cannot understand why someone else might consider it to be useful, and (probably making enemies here...) I would guess often from the younger members of various forums. Now, like some of the others here I remember the original home computer revolution in the UK, and have owned a ZX81, Spectrum, Jupiter Ace, QL and old CP/M machines amongst others, and have also worked for an embedded software supplier. Personally I am excited by the Raspberry Pi and intend to get one just to play with, and see just what I can do with it (it seems ideal for a monitoring station for a start). If it can be kitted out with wifi or an additional ethernet connection then even better, and it may become a test firewall or media streamer and so on. The possibilities are limited only by imagination, and maybe that is why some don't see the point.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:26 pm

bbramble said:


The possibilities are limited only by imagination, and maybe that is why some don't see the point.



I think some are frustrated that this is not the case, as they are limited by Broadcom's policy of being openly hostile to open-source development and the release of public documentation. Add to that the fact that the foundation has released almost no documentation on the RPi itself (schematics?), and I think many tech-savvy types are frustrated because they don't know what will be possible and what won't be due to a lack of documentation.

Maybe we'll get sufficient documentation and drivers to make full use of the hardware - but on the other hand, maybe we won't - it's hard to say and the foundation isn't really being clear on what they will be allowed to release, with nothing much available at launch. For a device that's supposed to be open and to encourage experimentation in the comp-sci field, I feel like this is a pretty legitimate concern, given Broadcom's history, and many people's own (often self-directed) trajectory while entering the field. Whether it is relevant to RPi's own vision of their goals or not, I definitely think it is relevant to a lot of savvy Internet users' vision of how RPi should be enabling students to think outside the box and dig as deep as they care to. And of course they would like to be able to at least know whether RPi will be able to fill their own niche needs for such a machine, but even whether or not that will be possible (purely due to a lack of docs, which is frustrating in itself!) isn't clear at this point.

RaspberryPi is a great idea, and I think there's a huge amount of opportunity here to really shake things up, not just in education, but also enabling self-directed experimentation on a different scale than something like Arduino does, but along those same kind of lines. Some of the most interesting things that can be done with it aren't really predictable, and many depend on a relatively deep understanding of the hardware, which the foundation's public appearance almost seems openly hostile to - or at least ambivalent about - while I think many of the 'haters' are aware of how broad the possibilities are, and are frustrated about the possibility of them being stifled. It's not hate, just frustration with a lack of detail and a concern that it will persist past launch.

Further I will suggest that this isn't really a bad thing. It indicates that people are excited about the project and what might be possible with it. They want to get started planning hardware addons, analyzing whether their thoughts might be practical to implement and even writing software.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:37 pm

There is no hostility to open source visible from Broadcom. There is hostility to Broadcom from morons. I therefore refer the illustrious Mr 404 to Arkell vs Pressdram.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:49 pm

tufty said:


There is no hostility to open source visible from Broadcom.


This was not really the thrust of my post. It is undeniable that Broadcom has not historically released public documentation for their SoCs, nor have they (to my knowledge) allowed such documentation to be released under NDA for use in open-source projects.

If it makes you less dismissive (which is kind of the concern I feel among the 'haters' in the first place), don't read the opening paragraph.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:26 pm

error404 said:

Some of the most interesting things that can be done with it aren't really predictable, and many depend on a relatively deep understanding of the hardware, which the foundation's public appearance almost seems openly hostile to - or at least ambivalent about - while I think many of the 'haters' are aware of how broad the possibilities are, and are frustrated about the possibility of them being stifled.
Um, pardon me, but could you point to where the Foundation has seemed openly hostile to deep understanding of the hardware?

I really feel like I've missed something, here...

spamel
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:45 pm

I would like to be a fly on the wall in one of the foundations rooms when they read posts on this forum. They are trying to bring something that should simply be fun and inspiring and people do nowt but get shirty about it or feel like they know the people involved enough to be able to speak for the foundation. I do not understand arguments on the internet, especially when arguing about something that the majority of people have never seen in real life. Maybe the arguments should be let go and we should concentrate on how we are going to use these devices and what for.

2+1? How stupid do I look?!

error404
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:54 pm

Prometheus said:

Um, pardon me, but could you point to where the Foundation has seemed openly hostile to deep understanding of the hardware?

First of all, the responses to people asking about releasing schematics and PCB layouts - which are obviously finalized at this point and take about 3 mouse clicks to release. The attitude that 'you don't need it because you can't buy the chip and can't fab it yourself' is, I would say, openly hostile to a deeper understanding of this hardware. I can't see any good reason not to just release this stuff, and the foundation responses have seemed excessively defensive.

About the Broadcom stuff, I understand their hands are tied and that the constant requests are frustrating, but the attitude seems to be more like 'you don't need that information, so go away' and even argumentative about why someone might want that information, rather than helpful. IMO it doesn't really matter why people want the information, so I don't know why the staff keep heading down that path. Having it out there does nothing but help both the foundation's stated goals and the organic learning the board seems like it would be perfect for. If it's not possible, that's one thing, but there are plenty of arguments coming from the foundation about why nobody needs that, which doesn't really jive with the open philosophy.

The larger point of my OP, which seems to have been missed, is that people see tons of potential here, but can't really tell thus far whether it will be available to them or not, and that's frustrating for such an awesome looking board. While it might feel like negativity, I think this is very positive and belies a lot of interest in this kind of project; these people are excited about the possibilities, and don't want them to be squandered, they're not hating on the idea or the project.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:02 pm

spamel said:


I would like to be a fly on the wall in one of the foundations rooms when they read posts on this forum.


Believe me, you wouldn't. I am amazed that we're being accused of *not giving enough information* by Error404 here, when we've been giving public details of the minutiae of development for months now, in a way that I think no other company like ours has done. Ever.

Error404 is not going to get schematics before we release. They'll come, but they'll come *with time*. I can only repeat again and again: our focus is on getting a very small, very cheap programming device into the hands of children. Not on giving you the moon on a stick.
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:29 pm

liz said:

I can only repeat again and again: our focus is on getting a very small, very cheap programming device into the hands of children. Not on giving you the moon on a stick.
But you also say ...

http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....try#p24169

We anticipate that people will be building the Raspberry Pi into all kinds of commercial devices and using it for all kinds of purposes – this is actually quite necessary to help us fund the educational uses of the board we want to see.

So there is another aspect beyond the primary focus and it's that 'secondary market' and those with empathy of it which feels neglected and frustrated in not having information, not knowing when it will be made available, or exactly what will be made available. Not knowing things like fuse ratings, how much current can be drawn from power rails or GPIO pins means it's hard to plan anything hardware-wise using an R-Pi; that's where frustration creeps in.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:37 pm

When has any product you've ever bought released that information before launch?
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:38 pm

Unforunately Error404 is coming from the direction of not knowing what the hell s/he is talking about. Basically, a good read of the forums would provide a better understanding, but that is obviously too complicated, so its was easier to launch into a spurt of misinformation..

Just so everyone is clear, and not mislead by his/her inane rumbling...

Libraries will be available for OpenGL ES, OpenVG EGL, OpenMax (I think). That covers the major graphics systems on the chip.

There will be a media player that plays H264 at Bluray quality. That's another massive chunk of the GPU covered.

The Arm is of course documented by Arm, but the GPIO's, as Raspi specific, will be documented.

USB and Ethernet is covered by the Linux build being provided

Now what about parts of the GPU not currently used? I'll tell you.

H264 Encode. At the moment there is no easy way to use this from Linux. Once camera is released it will use the encoder.

The camera interface itself. Which should be covered when the foundation releases a camera. Needs code change on the GPU - see next.

LCD interface. This requires code changes in the GPU code itself ie the binary blob. This is a Broadcom job as it requires specialist tools and compilers.

A few other  interfaces that very few people want or need (and are not exposed by the Raspi board design)

That pretty much covers the WHOLE of the chip. So I hope people can see we are not hiding anything. You WILL have access to the majority of the features that the chip provides, and the ones you don't have will hopefully become available late on.

I think that's worth $35, and people who go off on trantrums making stupid accusations of withholding information should step back and check that price again - $35. You get all of the stuff above, for $35.
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:38 pm

Read the FAQ.

"Maximum permitted current draw from the 3v3 pin is 50mA. Maximum permitted current draw from the 5v pin is the USB input current (usually 1A) minus any current draw from the rest of the board, or about 650 mA"

Resettable fuse is 1A but can be changed at your risk

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:25 pm

jacklang said:


Read the FAQ.

"Maximum permitted current draw from the 3v3 pin is 50mA. Maximum permitted current draw from the 5v pin is the USB input current (usually 1A) minus any current draw from the rest of the board, or about 650 mA"

Resettable fuse is 1A but can be changed at your risk



Thanks - I hadn't realised that had been added on the 17th of December.

If someone could add what the USB power fuse ratings are ( assuming that's what the fuses are ) plus GPIO sink and source ratings that would be appreciated.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:31 pm

Liz & James

I think you should just ignore this thread.

You're going to get those who will find some fault or other with every aspect of the design or how you're handling all of this.

Do it your way, it's working for the vast majority of us. Those who want it all now will just have to wait until the time comes for it all to be available.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:27 pm

manicgeek said:


Liz & James

I think you should just ignore this thread.

You're going to get those who will find some fault or other with every aspect of the design or how you're handling all of this.

Do it your way, it's working for the vast majority of us. Those who want it all now will just have to wait until the time comes for it all to be available.


Unfortunately you cannot ignore a thread that give the wrong impression, otherwise the impression spreads!

Thanks for your pragmatism. I know most people are going to be more than happy, but you cannot please everyone, and there is always a vocal minority!
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:32 pm

Indeed - there are an awful lot of misconceptions about what we're doing out there, so we do have to do our best to shut them down whenever we see them. Some, though, are just so outlandish that it's hard to make an impression. I've had people swearing blind at me that Rob Mullins, a Raspberry Pi trustee who is a Cambridge University lecturer, is actually a Broadcom employee, and that we're *pretending* (presumably in cahoots with his college, the Computer Lab and all those journals he's published in) that he works for the university in order to make it look as if we are not really a top-secret Broadcom marketing division.

Seriously, guys. We are not a top-secret Broadcom marketing division. We are a bunch of exhausted people trying to run a charity on a shoestring, who really don't want to have to deal with whatever your paranoid delusions about the company who makes our SoC are today.
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Benedict White
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:05 pm

tufty said:


There is no hostility to open source visible from Broadcom. There is hostility to Broadcom from morons. I therefore refer the illustrious Mr 404 to Arkell vs Pressdram.


I think you mean Arkell V Pressdram (1972) unreported.

I don't like to see partial case references

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:24 pm

If anyone still does not get it because they are not very good with words, here is a handy chart to print out and stick it on your fridge! Kinaesthetic learners can print it out and read it whilst bouncing on the sofa.


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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:36 pm

scep said:





I do like a good flow chart!

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