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riffraff
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:48 am

I'm beginning to think a lot of this "H8" stems from an appalling ignorance about the world of embedded processors.

Most of us are so used to thinking in the context of the General  Purpose Computer that we don't consider the design tradeoffs involved in creating application specific hardware or creating a product around it.

The idea with dedicated embeds is start with the minimum requirement and build up to the need, not start with the latest core technology and throw in everything and the kitchen sink. You utilize the skinniest device to keep profit margins fat.

In a world of scads of compromise solutions, this Roku chip just happens to be the perfect syzygy of ARM core, ARM based graphics core and I/O in a SoC. I've been itching for years since I saw the first digital cable boxes and sat receivers with SoC's to see someone flesh one of these things out into a workable PC.

It's kind of a clear message though, when a single little chip can be leveraged to function as any kind of PC, that the world has moved on and the type of devices we're accustomed to may soon become quaint relics.

Curinga
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:56 am

Well, the reason to hate it is because not you invented it. For people who do not know what to do with that it it's just a crappy pice of hardware. It has no wifi, SATA, 2 GHz processor and 8 GB of ram and it is not for free... who would like to have it? Do not search the reason for hate it. Find one to love it .

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Jongoleur
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:59 am

Most of the "haters" appear to be folk who want to repurpose the Pi for their own particular project, like the idea of "cheap" but think that because they need x, y or z that it should be provided at the cheap price.

There is another strand of "haters" who haven't grasped who the Pi is really aimed at (don't read the FAQs and so on) and belittle it because it doesn't address the educational niche that they think it should be aimed at.

Of course, another block of "haters" are the Open Software/Hardware zealots who foam at the mouth because it's a Broadcom SoC, its got an impenetrable binary blob and there's no comprehensive datasheet for the whole chip.

Oh and there's the folk who think it should be a tablet too.

Just think.  In May, we were introduced to the proof of concept prototype and told that it was a small general purpose, linux powered PC for letting schoolchildren learn how to program at a very low cost without interfering with the family PC.  We're now at the end of December and the first production run of development boards is about to begin.

Children; thats who the Raspberry Pi was designed and built for. Not for developers and project engineers to use as a souped-up Arduino replacement or as a source of intelligence for a third-party piece of kit. The fact that it can do thngs beyond its design brief is welcome and a bonus for the wider community.

Whats there to hate about that?

( Math Required?  I don't do "Math")
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:04 am

riFFraFF said:


In a world of scads of compromise solutions, this Roku chip just happens to be the perfect syzygy of ARM core, ARM based graphics core and I/O in a SoC. I've been itching for years since I saw the first digital cable boxes and sat receivers with SoC's to see someone flesh one of these things out into a workable PC.

It's kind of a clear message though, when a single little chip can be leveraged to function as any kind of PC, that the world has moved on and the type of devices we're accustomed to may soon become quaint relics.


Technically, Roku are just using the Broadcom chip, the BRCM2835. But rest of points are interesting - chip manufacturers have been trying to make SoC's for PC's for a number of years, and never got anywhere - as they are too limiting (slow graphics, limited CPU speed). Now we have very high performance multimedia as demanded by the mobile industry, and its finally making its way in the the PC arena. Interesting times.
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arm2
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:40 am

There is one way it is not a BBC Microcomputer replacement, Price.

The 16K RAM Model A was £299 inc VAT!

And £299 30 years ago was a lot of money!

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psergiu
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:25 pm

This forum software is missing a "ignore" button and a way for the ignored users to see how many people no longer want to see their posts.

This way the "trolls & haters" issue will be quickly sorted. If anyone disagrees with something, they'll have to present their problem in an insightful way - as posts like "RPi sucks because it doesn't have VGA" will quickly get them a couple of "ignores".

Prometheus
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:49 pm

arm2 said:


There is one way it is not a BBC Microcomputer replacement, Price.

The 16K RAM Model A was £299 inc VAT!

And £299 30 years ago was a lot of money!


According to this tool, £299 of thirty years ago is £801.32 in today's money!

Andy11
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:03 pm

Piw32 said:


The only thing i hate is having to wait until i have some display with a HDMI input !


They are less common but you can buy HDMI male to DVI female adapters for less than £2. Pretty much every computer monitor sold for the last 7/8 years has a dvi input.

cuenta
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:58 pm

This is encouraged!

where I put my zx spectrum +2 and my z-80a programming book?

hippy
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:25 pm

Jongoleur said:


Most of the "haters" appear to be folk who want to repurpose the Pi for their own particular project, like the idea of "cheap" but think that because they need x, y or z that it should be provided at the cheap price.


There has been some lament, regret, even annoyance, that the R-Pi will not  have some things from those hoping to use it beyond its educational purpose but the only "hate" there is for 'opportunities missed' as they perceive things and is, more often than not, driven by wanting the R-Pi to succeed rather than to see it lose out because of some decision or other.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of whether the R-Pi will succeed, will hit its intended mark or miss it, will be good for other uses or not; to suggest it will not is legitimate opinion not "hate". Likewise views on whether the Foundation have over-constrained themselves or not are simply opinion.

The R-Pi isn't above criticism - not even when considered only in its intended purpose - and neither is the Foundation. To classify such criticism as "hate", and those expressing it as "haters", doesn't serve any useful purpose; it stinks of 'fanbois cultism' and 'no criticism allowed here'.

Benedict White
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:55 pm

hippy said:


The R-Pi isn't above criticism - not even when considered only in its intended purpose - and neither is the Foundation. To classify such criticism as "hate", and those expressing it as "haters", doesn't serve any useful purpose; it stinks of 'fanbois cultism' and 'no criticism allowed here'.


Actually my criticism is directed at people who seem to want to buy a cheap tablet and go on about it. If they do, they should just buy one.

Alternatively they think the target of the foundation should buy one...

They also lament lack of VGA, which would be fair enough if there were not enough alternatives to drive a TV (HDMI and analogue out).

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scep
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:02 pm

hippy said:


The R-Pi isn't above criticism – not even when considered only in its intended purpose – and neither is the Foundation.


You are right, nothing is above criticism. I have the right, for example, to think that someone's kids are ugly and a bit thick. They might actually be ugly and a bit thick. But if I walked into that person''s house and said, '"Your kids are ugly and a bit thick"' then I''d expect – at best – to be asked to shut up and leave.

There is a big difference between having an opinion that adds to a discussion and criticising and whining and foot-stamping for the sake of it.

[edit: %&&%@@$! quotes and apostrophes! ]

slimplynth
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:06 pm

Hate is a strong word though... It's a tool, I don't hate hammers when I lose a finger nail.  I'd say cheeky is a more apt word. (Forums get silly sometimes, I try to stay off them these days - though I hope your forum obviously does well)

Hippy already knows (hello).. all to well that everyone wants a single micro controller with USB connectivity; 128 configurable inputs/outputs for every conceivable protocol while simultaneously outputting PWM... for less than a fiver (£5 GB)

Personally I cant wait to get my hands on an R-Pi or two... one for the telly and one for the car me thinks

hippy
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:46 pm

Benedict White said:


hippy said:


The R-Pi isn't above criticism - not even when considered only in its intended purpose - and neither is the Foundation. To classify such criticism as "hate", and those expressing it as "haters", doesn't serve any useful purpose; it stinks of 'fanbois cultism' and 'no criticism allowed here'.


Actually my criticism is directed at people who seem to want to buy a cheap tablet and go on about it. If they do, they should just buy one.


I can understand where they are coming from; they'd personally like a cheap tablet and consequently suggest the R-Pi would be better as a tablet and as equally good, or better, at fulfilling its educational purpose in that format. Is that true ? I think it's a fair debate to have. Would the R-Pi be better as a tablet than desktop-style, and could educational goals be equally met using a tablet rather than an R-Pi, naturally follows.

The R-Pi is not a tablet and some would say it never will be, "the R-Pi's goal is teaching programming ( especially to kids )", but one then has to wonder why the production version has PCB tracking for display and a camera interface; neither of which are essential in any from for the stated educational goals.

If an LCD touch screen is added to the R-Pi it effectively becomes a tablet. That would not in itself invalidate the R-Pi's educational goals so there's obviously no fundamental reason that tablets cannot equally meet the educational goals, which brings us full circle.

Is anyone going to stand up and say an R-Pi with LCD touch screen isn't suitable to for teaching kids programming ? I doubt it. Those proposing tablets are told they are not suitable but that would also include an R-Pi tablet and so the debate continues.

I suppose where it grates is that it is questioning the fundamentals of  the R-Pi. One either believes the Foundation have go it right or not and only time will tell. I personally wouldn't say they got it wrong, but I believe it could have been better, and, to me, a shame it isn't, though accepting the self-imposed constraints and acknowledging there are areas the foundation would themselves like to improve on.

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scep
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:09 pm

hippy said:


I suppose where it grates is that it is questioning the fundamentals of  the R-Pi. One either believes the Foundation have go it right or not and only time will tell.


Even the Foundation don't believe that false dichotomy:


We don’t claim to have all the answers. We don’t think that the Raspberry Pi is a fix to all of the world’s computing issues; we do believe that we can be a catalyst. [from "About us"]


Tomo2k
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:42 pm

hippy said:

If an LCD touch screen is added to the R-Pi it effectively becomes a tablet. That would not in itself invalidate the R-Pi's educational goals so there's obviously no fundamental reason that tablets cannot equally meet the educational goals, which brings us full circle.

Is anyone going to stand up and say an R-Pi with LCD touch screen isn't suitable to for teaching kids programming ? I doubt it. Those proposing tablets are told they are not suitable but that would also include an R-Pi tablet and so the debate continues.


Perhaps some clarification?

If the device were actually a tablet then it would be unsuitable for writing programs - because touchscreens are low-usage interfaces.

You can't easily write a long missive on a touchscreen keypad, because the ergonomics are wrong - hence the Asus Transformer range, and all those smartphones with physical keyboards.

However, that doesn't mean that one should not make a touchscreen available.

Touch interfaces are clearly here to stay, so it will be really good for kids to have access to a cheap one so they can write and try out programs that use a touch interface.

They will quickly learn what you can and cannot do on a touchscreen interface, and may even come up with some amazing new ideas for using them. (Who knows?)

They won't be writing that program on the touchscreen though, they'll be trying out their ideas on the touchscreen.

Adding a touchscreen doesn't turn the Raspberry Pi into a tablet. It turns it into one of those all-in-one PCs - that still allow keyboard and mouse.

jwatte
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:56 pm

I think it's easier than that.

The reason there's signals for an LCD header and signals for a camera header on the board, might simply be because the chip they're using has those signals, and it's very, very cheap to make them available in a rudimentary form.

The value of someone probably being able to find something cool to do with those ports probably far outweighs the engineering, documentation, and cognitive cost of making them available, seeing as they're already there.

Making something pretty good *actually* happen on a shoestring budget (of money and time) trumps talking about making something even better maybe happen in the future

Regarding haters: We all make assumptions, implicit and explicit. We all have different requirements. The RPi meets certain requirements given certain assumptions. Some people haven't gone through enough boom and bust cycles to understand the inherent trade-offs in life, much less those of engineering work done for free by other people.

My two cents

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:32 pm

I think the "hater" explanation is even easier than that:  RPi is popular, but some people can't see a use for it themselves.  Therefore, it's annoying to them that it's always talked about because they wouldn't give it any attention themselves.

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mkopack
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:09 am

I think a lot of it is:

1) people who just don't really GET it, who just want a box and expect it to do everything - RPi isn't really that.

2) people who expect it to do everything THEY want and get pissed when they find out it won't do XYZ and

3) people who have seen promises of low cost computing systems like this in the past and have been let down either because they die before release, end up costing way more than anticipated or seriously under perform when they get in people's hands.

In the end, you just have to ignore them and keep moving forward.

obarthelemy
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:34 am

It's mainly egocentricity: they want some kind of cheap PC to do something, and get all pissy when they find out the Pi wasn't designed for them specifically.

Prometheus
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:47 am

obarthelemy said:


It's mainly egocentricity: they want some kind of cheap PC to do something, and get all pissy when they find out the Pi wasn't designed for them specifically.



Some of it probably also comes from folks who put specification sheets and talk of "power" above real-world usage and what you can actually do with something in practical terms.

(Me? Give me a cheap-to-run ARM box with nicely optimised software over a wasteful x86 behemoth of which I'll only ever use a fraction of the "power", any day. )

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:30 am

Reasoning is pointless. They're too market biased. They've drunk the Koo-laid that bigger is better in a desktop and Tablets are the end-all-be-all in portables. Very few understand that as a desktop replacement, Pi is more than adequate. It's a better programming environment than a lot of us started with. When I was making my money at it, I would have loved to have that wide a screen or a dual-head system. Oh, to have had that debugger up with my object running and the source listing unlayered on one screen at the same time. Oh, the time it would have saved.

A lot of them aren't aware how many processing cycles a Windows system just sinks and how well a light Linux distro runs on even a slow machine with 1/4 gig of RAM. I doubt any of them have taken an old relic from the garage that struggled stuttered and froze running a ultra-low-res web cam video under Windows, wiped it clean, started the Xubuntu installation and an hour and a half later watched "Paranormal Activity" in glitchless and glorious full-screen.

And it seems even fewer have seen ARM systems running outside of the Android environment and have no idea how dense ARM code is compared to x86 or how rapidly it chews through loops and repetitive procedures if it isn't encumbered by multiple abstraction layers.

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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:19 am

As a newcomer, I have to agree with the OP.

Reading through some of the threads had me shaking my head at some of the inane comments and strawman arguments that some people were spouting, for no apparent reason. They certainly didn't add to the discussion in any way that I could see. In the end, it just exposed those people's ignorance of the goals for the project, and their inability to accept that their arguments were (and are still) irrelevant at this stage of the project, even if those arguments had a valid point (which many don't).

I don't think there's much fanboi preciousness anywhere here, at least from what I've seen so far. I personally love the fact that such an eclectic range of people are so enthusiastic about the potential for this little gizmo (and I'm one of them!), but implying that this makes them/us one-eyed fans, unable to cope with criticism, is just inane.

There's a big difference between raising valid arguments about things that could be changed, or pointing out practical shortcomings that will affect a majority of the target users, and simply repeating personal judgements about what they consider a computer should do regardless of the parameters that define this particular project.

I find the comparisons between the RPi and various tablets particularly inane, and especially at this stage of production. That seems to me to be simply a reverse fanboi perspective (talk about psychological projection!). The RPi isn't a tablet. It's not going to be a tablet. It wasn't designed to be a tablet. A tablet is a different paradigm altogether, and there are already enough crappy tablets out there to make that point moot in the first place. So why keep comparing the RPi to a tablet? Why keep complaining that the RPi doesn't work the way a tablet works? Why keep pointing out that tablets do things differently? We all know that. We've all read (and hopefully understood) the reasons why the RPi was designed the way it is, so why keep on trying to tell people here that tablets are a better solution for educating youngsters? In terms of the key reasons behind this project, they aren't. Period.

Unfortunately, some people seem to then take the argument out of reality altogether. I recall seeing some to-and-fro about third world usage of computers, and the gist of the argument was that since the RPi wasn't a tablet, and it needed a display of some kind, then poor kids in Yemen would be left behind by the Foundation because they couldn't afford televisions. (I may be brutally paraphrasing here, but that's pretty much what it boiled down to). I mean - come on! Strawman arguments don't help to improve the RPi, they just take up space on the server.

I do like the idea that we can make suggestions (based on real ideas about shortcomings or improvements) that may then be incorporated into future iterations of the RPi. There are threads dedicated to just that, and I'm about to delve into those to see what other folks are thinking about right now that might improve the RPi later on.

But I will be avoiding tablet comparisons from now on - permanently.

I can't believe the potential for this device: from simple multimedia to OS programming to who-knows-what, it's all there, sitting quietly, waiting to be unleashed. I can't wait to see how this develops. And I want one NOW!

Prometheus
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:18 am

riFFraFF said:


Reasoning is pointless. They"re too market biased. They"ve drunk the Koo-laid that bigger is better in a desktop and Tablets are the end-all-be-all in portables. Very few understand that as a desktop replacement, Pi is more than adequate. It"s a better programming environment than a lot of us started with. When I was making my money at it, I would have loved to have that wide a screen or a dual-head system. Oh, to have had that debugger up with my object running and the source listing unlayered on one screen at the same time. Oh, the time it would have saved.


Quite agreed!

It is a real shame that optimisation seems to get overlooked in favour of throwing out your hardware in favour of buying something new every four to six months, too, which I"ve observed seems to be a result of that "Bigger is better, and I can"t and won"t be satisfied with less" type of attitude. That"s why I lean towards ARM systems and have been aiming to ditch x86 for quite a while (I use a Pandora, but unfortunately had to skip the BeagleBoard and PandaBoard because I"m not up to the task of dealing with hardware geared more for tinkering; The RPi will fill the role I would have wanted either of them for) – I don't need the wastefulness of an x86 box, there"s a huge history of well-optimised ARM stuff for me to use, and the combined demons of "Just buy more RAM/space/graphics" and "Throw it away and buy a new one" don"t seem to rear their heads nearly as much. (Though I have occasionally encountered the other demon of "You should just buy a telephone and/or a tablet and replace them every six months for the best experience!". I only wish that that was an exaggeration in any form, but it's actually not…)


A lot of them aren"t aware how many processing cycles a Windows system just sinks and how well a light Linux distro runs on even a slow machine with 1/4 gig of RAM. I doubt any of them have taken an old relic from the garage that struggled stuttered and froze running a ultra-low-res web cam video under Windows, wiped it clean, started the Xubuntu installation and an hour and a half later watched "Paranormal Activity" in glitchless and glorious full-screen.


One of the things I like the most about older hardware is how it can generally be made just as useful as modern hardware for most people"s requirements like that.

I did as you describe with an ancient laptop (which is now just over a decade old) a few years ago, though I used Puppy instead because Xubuntu was still a little bit too heavy. It was quite satisfying to repurpose it, instead of letting it sit around.


And it seems even fewer have seen ARM systems running outside of the Android environment and have no idea how dense ARM code is compared to x86 or how rapidly it chews through loops and repetitive procedures if it isn"t encumbered by multiple abstraction layers.


I always find that mindboggling, myself, especially when I hear it from people who describe themselves as "techies" and the like. Even I know that, and I"m hardly the most technical person on the face of the planet.

TheLaw
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Re: How come there are so many Raspberry Pi haters?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Well, in explanation of my own trollish posts: linuxy things seem to attract a lot of fan-boys who hate "the Steve" and "the Bill".  They have a lot of testosterone in their system, and I still have some too, so I react to it.

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