grillbiller
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:50 pm

Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:36 pm

Today Microsoft had announc Windows10 on ARM the full windows10 experince on ARM CPU with X86 emulations...
Will That run on Raspberry pi 3 ?
https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-confi ... ore-video/

User avatar
CarlRJ
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:49 pm

The folks you should be asking about this all work for Microsoft, not RpF/RPT - Microsoft owns the Windows source code, so they're the ones that have to compile for the Pi and support it.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 7425
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:58 pm

Very unlikely that it would on a Pi. The way the Pi boots is a little odd and I seriously doubt that MS would do a version that would work with those differences.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 11, 2017 9:04 pm

grillbiller wrote:Today Microsoft had announc Windows10 on ARM the full windows10 experince on ARM CPU with X86 emulations...
Will That run on Raspberry pi 3 ?

https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-confi ... ore-video/

https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-t ... 6-details/

It is compiled for Qualcomm ARM CPU and leaked end of last year, old news is no news.


So Windows 10 Desktop Edition not yet for the RPi 3B :o

Therefore this is like Windows 8/10 Mobile and previously RT, tied to certain CPU/GPU Architecture..

The emulation layer is similar to WINE ARM.and these ARM PC's are unlikely to be offered on a low end machine, there are plenty of Chinese cheap W10 mini PC's & Tablets which fill the sub $200 market.
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

andrum99
Posts: 373
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 11, 2017 10:19 pm

grillbiller wrote:Today Microsoft had announc Windows10 on ARM the full windows10 experince on ARM CPU with X86 emulations...
Will That run on Raspberry pi 3 ?
https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-confi ... ore-video/
As others have pointed out: this is a limited release targeting specific ARM-based devices. None of the current Raspberry Pi's will get this full Windows 10 on them. (There is already a very much cut-down IoT version that runs on the Pi, however this is purely for developing IoT devices - you can't use it like a PC).

It is certainly possible that in the future a future Raspberry Pi device could support a full ARM version of Windows 10, however this would involve Microsoft spending time and money specifically to target the Pi platform. There is simply no way that current Pi hardware will be supported by any "full" desktop version of Windows, for mostly business reasons on Microsoft's side.

Microsoft already had a version of Windows that ran on ARM - that is what Windows RT was. The big change in this new Windows 10 for ARM is that it supports x86 applications, through emulation. As with Windows 10 for ARM, Windows RT only supported specific devices.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 6:08 am

The reference design of the Windows 10 ARM uses a OctaCore Qualcomm Snapdragon 835

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Q ... dragon_835

This is no surprise as Qualcomm already supply SoC's for Lumia Windows 10 Phones and the DragonBoard for Windows 10 IoT. The NT Kernel has a lot of love for Qualcomm !!


There is a good review of the QS 835 here and one can see it is miles ahead of the RPi SoC, this SoC is used in "expensive" devices:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/snap ... pset-cores
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

Koeshi
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 11:37 am

andrum99 wrote: It is certainly possible that in the future a future Raspberry Pi device could support a full ARM version of Windows 10, however this would involve Microsoft spending time and money specifically to target the Pi platform. There is simply no way that current Pi hardware will be supported by any "full" desktop version of Windows, for mostly business reasons on Microsoft's side.
There is no way that the Pi could support the current W10 desktop for the simple matter that it uses over 2GB of RAM at boot before you even open anything.

runboy93
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:17 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:01 pm

Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop (just skip few more updates)
Aluminum case for Raspberry Pi 3
https://goo.gl/3QRuVw

RPi 3 tweaks by runboy93
https://goo.gl/o8grny

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:06 pm

runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop (just skip few more updates)
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30 :D
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

runboy93
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:17 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:08 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop (just skip few more updates)
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30 :D
Yeah price is quite high.
Aluminum case for Raspberry Pi 3
https://goo.gl/3QRuVw

RPi 3 tweaks by runboy93
https://goo.gl/o8grny

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:12 pm

runboy93 wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop (just skip few more updates)
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30 :D
Yeah price is quite high.
I see they have reduced the price yet again:

https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-des ... nd-prices/


Once ExaGear Desktop is up and running, it becomes a neat solution for running a wider range of Linux software on your Raspberry Pi.
The Windows aspect is interesting, but not practical.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/exage ... ion-on-pi/
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

Martin Frezman
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:05 am

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:15 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop.
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30.
If it works - and that's a big 'if' - it is easily worth the money. That's chump change compared to any other x86 solution. And you save money on all the other things that make running a Pi so much less expensive than running an x86 box (including saving on air conditioning).

But it is a big 'if'. According to everything I've read, Exagear is actually pretty good at running x86 Linux (but see footnote) but it is just Wine as far as running Windows apps (which is usually the real goal). And Wine, although it does indeed work for some things, is, shall we say, problematic at best.

Foornote: Apparently, Exagear is an optimized (as in, they put some work into it) version of something that you could, at least in theory, do yourself for free. So, if you're a free software purist, you could do it yourself and save yourself the thirty bucks.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 12, 2017 12:22 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop.
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30.
If it works - and that's a big 'if' - it is easily worth the money. That's chump change compared to any other x86 solution. And you save money on all the other things that make running a Pi so much less expensive than running an x86 box (including saving on air conditioning).

But it is a big 'if'. According to everything I've read, Exagear is actually pretty good at running x86 Linux (but see footnote) but it is just Wine as far as running Windows apps (which is usually the real goal). And Wine, although it does indeed work for some things, is, shall we say, problematic at best.

Foornote: Apparently, Exagear is an optimized (as in, they put some work into it) version of something that you could, at least in theory, do yourself for free. So, if you're a free software purist, you could do it yourself and save yourself the thirty bucks.
I would not call £75 for a Chinese Windows MiniPC expensive if one wants to run Windows Software:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Z83-Windows-1 ... 1818871048


Or if a SBC in the Raspberry Pi style with x86 CPU then: http://up-shop.org/4-up-boards
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

alphanumeric
Posts: 1196
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Tue May 16, 2017 9:07 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Very unlikely that it would on a Pi. The way the Pi boots is a little odd and I seriously doubt that MS would do a version that would work with those differences.
They already have a Windows 10 IoT that runs on the Raspberry Pi. How the Pi boots, IMHO, is not an issue for Microsoft.

Martin Frezman
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:05 am

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Tue May 16, 2017 11:01 pm

Calling IOT "Windows" is about like calling DOS 2.0 "Windows".

Yes, the core is there - but there's a whole lot missing (From DOS 2.0 as compared to modern "Windows").

And, yes, I'm sure this does affect the booting - the booting is part and parcel of the whole shebang.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1196
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Wed May 17, 2017 9:35 am

Totally agree with the Windows 10 IoT comments. It's totally useless for what I want to do on my Pi, Windows wise. I didn't call it that, Microsoft calls it that. ;) Just pointing out that Microsoft is well aware of how the Pi boots is all.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Wed May 17, 2017 12:25 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Very unlikely that it would on a Pi. The way the Pi boots is a little odd and I seriously doubt that MS would do a version that would work with those differences.
They already have a Windows 10 IoT that runs on the Raspberry Pi. How the Pi boots, IMHO, is not an issue for Microsoft.
Booting is a MS issue because they use a Secure Boot Layer.

Windows 10 IoT Core like Windows 10 Desktop, Server 2016, Windows 10 Phone, Xbox (latest software) all use the same base NT Kernel.

So yes Windows 10 Iot Core is part of the NT family, there is no other.


Windoes Mobile / CEand its varients are all becoming end of life and use a different Kernel...


Though as I already stated Windows 10 ARM would need at least a big/littel Octa-Core SoC. RPi ........
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

alphanumeric
Posts: 1196
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Wed May 17, 2017 1:03 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
alphanumeric wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Very unlikely that it would on a Pi. The way the Pi boots is a little odd and I seriously doubt that MS would do a version that would work with those differences.
They already have a Windows 10 IoT that runs on the Raspberry Pi. How the Pi boots, IMHO, is not an issue for Microsoft.
Booting is a MS issue because they use a Secure Boot Layer.

Windows 10 IoT Core like Windows 10 Desktop, Server 2016, Windows 10 Phone, Xbox (latest software) all use the same base NT Kernel.

So yes Windows 10 Iot Core is part of the NT family, there is no other.


Windoes Mobile / CEand its varients are all becoming end of life and use a different Kernel...


Though as I already stated Windows 10 ARM would need at least a big/littel Octa-Core SoC. RPi ........
If 10 IoT can boot up on a raspberry Pi what's the big deal with booting Windows 10 on Arm from one? I do not see it as an issue myself. But, then again I don't work for Microsoft. I am a Microsoft MVP though, for what its worth.

User avatar
mahjongg
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9557
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am
Location: South Holland, The Netherlands

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 18, 2017 10:56 am

If tomorrow Microsoft decides to create a real version of Windows 10, specifically for the PI, then the users of that Windows 10 would come to the quick realization that none of their normal (x86) windows software they try to run on it would works, as all applications still need an x86 processor to run on. Don't count on all Windows applications to be quickly recompiled for ARM, as recompiling Windows applications for ARM isn't easy, and the writers (if they are still around) didn't ever count on that to happen, and there will always be issues, as well as large costs involved. I personally simply do not see it happen.

Windows is bound hands and foot to the x86 architecture, that's why we have invented the term WINTEL.
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/wintel-go ... -dead-yet/

So IMHO an ARM Windows simply will not take off for lack of software.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 18, 2017 1:05 pm

mahjongg wrote:If tomorrow Microsoft decides to create a real version of Windows 10, specifically for the PI, then the users of that Windows 10 would come to the quick realization that none of their normal (x86) windows software they try to run on it would works, as all applications still need an x86 processor to run on. Don't count on all Windows applications to be quickly recompiled for ARM, as recompiling Windows applications for ARM isn't easy, and the writers (if they are still around) didn't ever count on that to happen, and there will always be issues, as well as large costs involved. I personally simply do not see it happen.

Windows is bound hands and foot to the x86 architecture, that's why we have invented the term WINTEL.
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/wintel-go ... -dead-yet/

So IMHO an ARM Windows simply will not take off for lack of software.
https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-t ... 6-details/

With today's news, the full desktop Windows 10 variant is coming to ARM. It will be a 64-bit version, running on Qualcomm's latest and greatest processors (probably the Snapdragon 835), and the way Microsoft describes it, this time around, it will offer a full Windows experience, with the ability to run not only Universal Windows Platform apps from the Store but also regular Win32 desktop applications.

Therefore it will use an Emulation Layer, which is inherentally slower than running nativrly.....
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

Martin Frezman
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:05 am

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu May 18, 2017 1:44 pm

but also regular Win32 desktop applications.
Therefore it will use an Emulation Layer, which is inherently slower than running natively.....
"regular" "Win32" "desktop" "applications"

doesn't necessarily mean x86 applications. Something can be a "regular Win32 desktop application" and be compiled for and run as native ARM. There's plenty of room here for slippery MS-speak.

But you are right - *IF* they mean it runs old-style x86 Windows executables, then, of course, that will mean an emulation layer - which:

a) Requires a beefy CPU in order to get anything approaching reasonable performance (i.e., not the sort of ARM CPU that is on the Pi).

b) Comes with all the usual caveats and problems that emulation always brings. I.e., even if you have enough CPU, there are always things that almost, sort of work.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Fri May 26, 2017 2:30 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
runboy93 wrote:Best for x86 apps on RPi 3 is ExaGear Desktop.
Only if you are willing to pay $20-30.
If it works - and that's a big 'if' - it is easily worth the money. That's chump change compared to any other x86 solution. And you save money on all the other things that make running a Pi so much less expensive than running an x86 box (including saving on air conditioning).
RPi costs between $25 and $40, monitor at least $20 new, keyboard and mouse at least $15, add this extra $20 and you are at at least $80. You can get an Intel Atom based notebook running Windows 10 for at little as $50 (a little less actually), add $15 for a keyboard mouse combo you are still only at $65 for an Atom based Windows 10 machine.

So no it is not low cost by any means. It just happens to be convenient if you happen to already own an RPi (which we all do here).
But it is a big 'if'. According to everything I've read, Exagear is actually pretty good at running x86 Linux (but see footnote) but it is just Wine as far as running Windows apps (which is usually the real goal). And Wine, although it does indeed work for some things, is, shall we say, problematic at best.

Foornote: Apparently, Exagear is an optimized (as in, they put some work into it) version of something that you could, at least in theory, do yourself for free. So, if you're a free software purist, you could do it yourself and save yourself the thirty bucks.
I am running ReactOS in Qemu to run Win32 software quite comfortably.
ARM BASIC: For the love of Simplicity, Fast Interpreted BASIC, and Assembly Language.
Always KISS Keep It Simple Silly.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Wed May 31, 2017 9:19 am

My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

sarahgad
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:07 pm

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:08 am

Like your share, quite detailed.

User avatar
fruitoftheloom
Posts: 14682
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Bognor Regis UK

Re: Windows 10 on ARM ?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:08 pm

sarahgad wrote:
Like your share, quite detailed.
TY and. Qualcomn seem to ready to embrace MS as stated in the article:

That’s thanks to emulation technology which allows Qualcomm’s ARM-based chip to run software that’s been compiled for x86 architecture.
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

Return to “Off topic discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests