fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 12:21 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:That is the point which most people fail to grasp about UK Charities.
It does seem there are quite a few people who do not understand how UK charities or the charity commission work, nor understand the frameworks and legislation they work within. Many seem to have a vision of how things are or should be which does not reflect the reality of the actual situation.

Can I ask what your particular expertise is in this area ?

For my part I have only had associations with charities rather than running them. I have never been a trustee of a charity though I have been a member of committees running non-profit organisations and have had association with others.
I used to help a friend (many years ago) who was involved in a Charity with Trading Arm (voluntary IT support)

http://chichestercanal.org.uk/about-chichester-canal/

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Sh ... ryNumber=0
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hippy
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 12:51 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:I used to help a friend (many years ago) who was involved in a Charity with Trading Arm (voluntary IT support)
If still around it might be worth asking what restrictions being a charity had on their ability to pursue their goals, and what restrictions being a trading arm of a charity imposed on that business.

I would expect their answer to be; "Very little. As long as the charity is pursuing its goals it can do pretty much whatever it wants. The trading arm can likewise do pretty much whatever it wants in pursuit of creating money for the charity".

Because that's a good overview of what legislation applies as far as I can see. Maybe we could get a trustee of the Foundation, Eben or someone from RPT to come and describe it however they would. That should settle any debate over how it is.

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bstrobl
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 1:07 pm

I would actually not be surprised if the next SoC uses a design where the old bcm2835 is simply relegated to the work of a "dedicated" GPU. A newer quad core ARM meanwhile will handle direct memory access while passing on some of that RAM to the bcm2835 along with graphics requests. Graphic drivers will only have to be modified enough for the requests to get passed on to the old ARM11 to process (separate linux stack?).

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 1:11 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:I used to help a friend (many years ago) who was involved in a Charity with Trading Arm (voluntary IT support)
If still around it might be worth asking what restrictions being a charity had on their ability to pursue their goals, and what restrictions being a trading arm of a charity imposed on that business.

I would expect their answer to be; "Very little. As long as the charity is pursuing its goals it can do pretty much whatever it wants. The trading arm can likewise do pretty much whatever it wants in pursuit of creating money for the charity".

Because that's a good overview of what legislation applies as far as I can see. Maybe we could get a trustee of the Foundation, Eben or someone from RPT to come and describe it however they would. That should settle any debate over how it is.
Yes it would be good if one of the Trading Arm Trustees would write a Blog.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 1:34 pm

jamesh wrote:Just as an aside, Pi4 wishlists are almost pointless. You should be thinking about Pi5 and above at least. The RPF/T has a roadmap (and it has some very surprising bits in it!), and it takes a LONG time to develop new stuff.
Nice to have something resembling official backing for a point I've made on occasion. This is why I'm trying to shift what I say from "the Pi4 needs/should have" to "I hope the Pi4 has..." because my best guess is that the Pi4 SoC has gone through at least one cycle of making wafers so far (which is to say, it's features are well and truly set and all we can do is *hope* for desired features).

gtechn
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 2:07 pm

In the end, these aren't even wishlists. These are rough guesses as to what the Pi 4 will be.
Just as an aside, Pi4 wishlists are almost pointless. You should be thinking about Pi5 and above at least. The RPF/T has a roadmap (and it has some very surprising bits in it!), and it takes a LONG time to develop new stuff.
They have a roadmap. Awesome. Surprising bits in it? Oh, more SPECULATION! :D :D :D What could it possibly MEAN?

So, now "wishlists" are like this:
1. Guessing what the Raspberry Pi 4 roadmap is.
2. Wishlists for Raspberry Pi 5 (and NO unicorns!)

The Likelihood-O-Meter as mentioned before probably wouldn't work. After all, Pi Zero was a 0.1/10 chance on that scale.

Anybody want to guess what the "very surprising" bits are?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 2:11 pm

gtechn wrote:In the end, these aren't even wishlists. These are rough guesses as to what the Pi 4 will be.
Just as an aside, Pi4 wishlists are almost pointless. You should be thinking about Pi5 and above at least. The RPF/T has a roadmap (and it has some very surprising bits in it!), and it takes a LONG time to develop new stuff.
They have a roadmap. Awesome. Surprising bits in it? Oh, more SPECULATION! :D :D :D What could it possibly MEAN?

So, now "wishlists" are like this:
1. Guessing what the Raspberry Pi 4 roadmap is.
2. Wishlists for Raspberry Pi 5 (and NO unicorns!)

The Likelihood-O-Meter as mentioned before probably wouldn't work. After all, Pi Zero was a 0.1/10 chance on that scale.

Anybody want to guess what the "very surprising" bits are?
Yes they will BAN all these pathetic posts :D
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gtechn
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 2:18 pm

Yes they will BAN all these pathetic posts
Why do forums always have to be about whether you like what we are talking about or not? Seriously, can you just leave people who like speculations alone? The RPF has already said we are fine, so they [the forum posts, not the RPF] are pathetic in your opinion (obviously), but not ours.

This is a copy of what I posted in a different thread. This is the biggest wave of speculation I've seen yet for Pi 4! (With actual technical details!)
Finally, here are my (somewhat, hopefully) realistic thoughts:
- 1.5GHz 28nm Quad-Core Cortex-A53
- 2GB (or 3GB) RAM, DDR2 (soldiered-on version of course)
- Somewhat Faster IO
- The Wifi Antenna replaced with a PCB antenna like Zero W (nobody has brought up this idea yet)

VideoCore is almost certainly staying. Otherwise, why have Eric Anholt work so hard on a GL driver for it?
The 1GB of RAM limit will almost certainly be fixed somehow, due to consumer demand and practical use.
Faster IO may or may not come, due to the expense.
PCB Wifi Antenna = Pretty likely.

Finally, I need to bring up something very important:
I can give you all the details right now: it's definitely not happening any time in the next year!

Liz Upton said that on Jan 19, 2017. Does that mean Pi 4 is coming in... 2019???
Last edited by gtechn on Wed May 10, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 2:27 pm

Actually the Moderators control the Board, and like all responders do so Voluntarily.

AFAIAC this is a forum to help people with issues, your post do not fit the brief in my opinion.
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gtechn
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 2:30 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Actually the Moderators control the Board, and like all responders do so Voluntarily.

AFAIAC this is a forum to help people with issues, your post do not fit the brief in my opinion.
By all means I respect your opinion, but the moderators who control the board say it is fine. You are a user, therefore you listen to the moderators. And if the moderators say it is fine and you don't like it, just leave us alone to talk. It doesn't hurt you any.

Raspberry Pi 4 may be slated for 2019 release.

jamesh
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 3:10 pm

gtechn wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:Actually the Moderators control the Board, and like all responders do so Voluntarily.

AFAIAC this is a forum to help people with issues, your post do not fit the brief in my opinion.
By all means I respect your opinion, but the moderators who control the board say it is fine. You are a user, therefore you listen to the moderators. And if the moderators say it is fine and you don't like it, just leave us alone to talk. It doesn't hurt you any.

Raspberry Pi 4 may be slated for 2019 release.
I haven't said anything of the sort. I leave these sort of posts up until I think they have run their course. Then I lock them.

Why do you think that the RPF(T) having a road map is 'awesome'? Surely it is simply good business practice?

I will quash any wild speculation on what is on that roadmap.
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gtechn
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 3:14 pm

I haven't said anything of the sort. I leave these sort of posts up until I think they have run their course. Then I lock them.

Why do you think that the RPF(T) having a road map is 'awesome'? Surely it is simply good business practice?

I will quash any wild speculation on what is on that roadmap.
I was quoting mahjongg:
It is NO problem that people want to talk about their dreams, as long as they ask about somewhat realistic things, (some people may have heard about some innovations, and may want it, but do not have enough technical know-how to realize what they really are asking, so try to inform yourself before going off to ask for impossible things, like x86 compatibility).

But I also know some people are getting sick of this discussion, and may want to derail it.

To all of you I only say keep it nice and on topic, and I will try to keep the peace, which means I will delete posts that do not add to the discussion, but are simply inflammatory, or misplaced "humour".
The fact that the RPF has a roadmap is 'awesome', by that I think whatever it is going to is going to be awesome! (And of course it is good practice.)

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davidcoton
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 6:56 pm

gtechn wrote:They have a roadmap. Awesome.
Having a roadmap is not awesome, not even surprising, but normal for a tech company.
OTOH not having a roadmap would be strange and worrying.
Of course, what is on the roadmap is almost certainly completely awesome.
gtechn wrote:Anybody want to guess what the "very surprising" bits are?
A new startup screen for the hardware, with rainbow coloured dancing unicorns.
Seriously, that would boost sales to younger children, who might get hooked on programming.
I predict that the Pi 5 version of the unicorn startup screen will be programmable.
Hereinafter to be known as "DRUPS" ... Dancing Rainbow Unicorn Programmable Startup ...
Further details on how it's done next April.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 8:24 pm

davidcoton wrote: Hereinafter to be known as "DRUPS" ... Dancing Rainbow Unicorn Programmable Startup ...
Further details on how it's done next April.
At the beginning of that month, no doubt...

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davidcoton
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 9:04 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
davidcoton wrote: Hereinafter to be known as "DRUPS" ... Dancing Rainbow Unicorn Programmable Startup ...
Further details on how it's done next April.
At the beginning of that month, no doubt...
Just my guess at the Pi4 launch date :lol:
Actually, if a clever "language" could define the colouring and movement of pre-defined unicorn shapes, a user program could be run to produce a video loop. And I suspect the Pi Towers resident VC4 geniuses would only need a lunchtime to knock up modified boot code to play a video loop at startup. It would need to be in the GPU boot code so as not to slow down the subsequent booting of processor boot code. So it needs a modified boot ROM. So it's unlikely (read: extremely unlikely) to appear before Pi4.
Voilà! See you at the patent office (hope they don't notice this prior disclosure :o )
EDIT: BTW, my contacts in the rainbow unicorn realm assure me that there would be no objection to sharing the video generation code with ponies, pink or otherwise.
Last edited by davidcoton on Wed May 10, 2017 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mfa298
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 9:15 pm

davidcoton wrote:
gtechn wrote:Anybody want to guess what the "very surprising" bits are?
A new startup screen for the hardware, with rainbow coloured dancing unicorns.
Seriously, that would boost sales to younger children, ...
It would also have the side effect of providing what all the grumpy old regulars ask for on every wishlist thread.
+1 for this idea.

As for guessing what the surprises are, knowing how the team have pulled things out of the small PCB so far I wouldn't be surprised if they bypass the whole 64bit era and drag the pi into 128bit processors and/or quantum computing. Maybe that'll be on the Pi5.

gtechn
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 10:47 pm

Sorry, must clarify, but I meant that what was on the roadmap was awesome (not the fact that they had a roadmap). My bad.

What is the joke with Unicorns? It gets into every thread. Maybe the Pi 4 should just print a unicorn in silicon inside the chip and give the joke more reason to exist.

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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Wed May 10, 2017 11:22 pm

gtechn wrote:Sorry, must clarify, but I meant that what was on the roadmap was awesome (not the fact that they had a roadmap). My bad.

What is the joke with Unicorns? It gets into every thread. Maybe the Pi 4 should just print a unicorn in silicon inside the chip and give the joke more reason to exist.
The ponies and unicorns are extensions of old jokes (What does a Pi need? Wheels and a sandwich.) and are now mostly used as a way to ridicule the wilder ideas about what features should be added to the Pi. I would note that people *used* to discuss what features the Pi3 would have...then it was launched. It's the Pi4 that gets that treatment now and as soon as it launches, people will start in on the Pi5. You can see where that is going.

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davidcoton
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Thu May 11, 2017 1:02 am

davidcoton wrote:
gtechn wrote:Anybody want to guess what the "very surprising" bits are?
A new startup screen for the hardware, with rainbow coloured dancing unicorns.
Seriously, that would boost sales to younger children, who might get hooked on programming.
I predict that the Pi 5 version of the unicorn startup screen will be programmable.
Hereinafter to be known as "DRUPS" ... Dancing Rainbow Unicorn Programmable Startup ...
Further details on how it's done next April.
Breaking news
  • The video creation element will be a full multimedia workstation, the Terrific Rainbow Unicorn Multimedia Pi, because its a crazy idea.
  • The collaboration with WD will bring a classroom server version of the Pi, allowing net booting and server side storage for up to 30 Pi workstations.
  • As the post Brexit UK economy takes off, "Robot Wars" will take to the skies using the Pi-based battle drone kit.
    Add Pegasus to ponies and unicorns.
I leave it to others to work out the permutations and combinations of these three products. The roadmap is certainly surprising when we start guessing imaginatively. Eventually some of the guesses will turn out right.
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Zebu
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Thu May 11, 2017 6:16 am

given this appears to be a thing that potentially exists

http://www.bplus.com.tw/ExtenderBoard/EXM2E.html

my guess for pi4/5/6/Z/Zx is m.2 on the SDIO bus rather than the USB bus or native in the chipset

clearly its a wild guess though. happy to be wrong :P

jamesh
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Re: Why the Raspberry Pi 4 wishlists are tough sells

Thu May 11, 2017 8:46 am

We have another thread for wishing...use that.
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