summersab
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Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:12 am

I know, I know - no one likes posts like this where we come asking for features on next versions. I wish there were a "feature request" area where we could up-vote ideas for future Pi models (both hardware and software - perhaps as separate voting areas).

Anyway, here's my $0.02. I love my Pi Zero W, but there are two things I wish it had:
  • U.FL antenna connector (THE PADS ARE RIGHT THERE!!!)
  • JST/PicoBlade battery connector and charging circuit
I've seen a number of hacks where people added U.FL ports back to the board, but I wish it were available out of the box. Is there some regulatory reason for not including it? Plenty of other SBCs include one. It would really help make the Pi Zero 0 a more powerful little device.

I know that adding a battery port and charging circuit would take up space, but why not add it in lieu of the camera connector? Yes, there are lots of people who have solutions which leverage the camera, but I think that would pale in comparison to the number of people who would benefit from a battery-powered Pi. Perhaps make two editions to satisfy both groups. Yes, I know I could get Pimoroni board, but it doesn't provide a charging circuit, and it would be nice to not have to get an add-on. While one could argue space, I've reflow-soldered circuits with charging ICs, and they're REALLY small - one 5-pin SOT-23 IC, two capacitors, and one resistor is all you need. If a battery port can't be added, at least provide the ability to run the Pi from a 4.2-3.3V source.

Alright, that's all. Thanks for a great product, and I look forward to seeing it become even better!

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Jednorozec
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:45 am

Would you like a free pink pony also?
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:38 am

5-pin SOT-23

So you went for the big chip?

Antenna connector as well would require a RF switch, that's two extra parts, both not cheap, as in penny/cents.

JST battery connector? This would be ok IF the Zero's BCM2835 actually had a decent sleep current.
JST connector, charge chip and RTC with Pi power switch, that's third part stuff.
Hmm, can a Hat have a RTC on the Hat i2c buss as well? Battery/RTC hat's? note to self: must check.

Zero's can run from less than 5V, only the voltage detector and HDMI connector needs 5V.
If voltage detector was 2.9V it could be of use.
3v3 is used for? CPU is 1.2V, Dram and the rest 1.8V?
Camera has it's own regulators, 2.5V? etc.
Don't lose the camera connector, that's the best new bit :P

And you are probably not saying anything the RPF don't know anyway.
I can imagine design meetings at RPF, "What if we add this! How much does it cost? 22.347 cents. Forget it, that's too much, next".

And yes there is probably a good reason that RF connector is not on, if it was then it must be tested.
Tested with every possible antenna :o
"How much is the antenna? 58.92cents in 100,000 qty. What???? Go write on blackboard a hundred times, "No more than 10cents. No more than 10cents. No more than 10cents. No more than 10cents.......".

Well they are only $5 or $10 for the W.
Why not use the ARM in the WiFi chip as RTC and power management controller?
And bring out the FM stuff and, and, and ........ pink fluffy unicorns?

Shh, don't tell anyone, I agree with you, JST/Molex n battery etc.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:09 am

summersab wrote:I know, I know - no one likes posts like this where we come asking for features on next versions.
Some people love them, at least until they devolve inot a shouting match over either (a) whether some feature *should* be included, or (b) people differ on the feasibility of even adding a particular feature. With that in mind...
Anyway, here's my $0.02. I love my Pi Zero W, but there are two things I wish it had:
  • U.FL antenna connector (THE PADS ARE RIGHT THERE!!!)
This was discussed recently at some length. The problem is that adding an external antenna to a Pi0W would also require recertification with the FCC and CE with the antenna, and that certification would only apply to whatever antenna(s) were tested. Basically, making it easier to add an external antenna is a rather broad invitation for people to operate the Pi0W outside of the emissions characteristics it is certified for, and that--in turn--creates a liability risk for RPT. So...absolutely not going to happen.
[*] JST/PicoBlade battery connector and charging circuit[/list]
Two problems: space and cost. And, no, you can't add this (or anything else) on the bottom of the PCB. One of the ways that manufacturing cost is held down is by only having parts and soldering on one side of the board.
I know that adding a battery port and charging circuit would take up space, but why not add it in lieu of the camera connector?
Back when the camera connector was added, it was stated that that addition was the most requested change. So your proposal would mean replacing the most popular addition to the original version with one that wasn't as popular.
Perhaps make two editions to satisfy both groups.
Product fragmentation is an expensive proposition...and the Pi0/Pi0W are intended to hold price down as far as possible.

tweak42
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:27 am

Is there anywhere on a Official Foundation site where Pi design decisions are posted in a technical FAQ fashion explaining why Pi's include or omit particular features? I've only seen tidbit details in passing from written and video interviews, comments from foundation staff in forum posts, and anecdotal evidence from veteran users on this forum.

I don't claim to know much about PCB board design and software coding but I trust that the Pi designers make certain decisions for a good reason. A place gathering the minuet details of these reason would go a long way to ward off the arm chair board designers claiming that the Pi Foundation are doing it ALL WRONG and citing how just adding X, dropping Y or manufacturing more Z is better.

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RichardUK
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:18 am

I like these posts, nothing wrong in some window shopping. :) Fill ya boots.

If possible my 'cheap' idea would be to break out some more of the unused pins to the underside of the board as pads. For the super hackers to get soldering too. :D

mikerr
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:56 am

Mine would be to add an audio filter circuit as at

https://learn.adafruit.com/adding-basic ... o/overview

Couple of resistors and capacitors only....
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:42 am

summersab wrote:I know, I know - no one likes posts like this where we come asking for features on next versions. I wish there were a "feature request" area where we could up-vote ideas for future Pi models (both hardware and software - perhaps as separate voting areas).

Anyway, here's my $0.02. I love my Pi Zero W, but there are two things I wish it had:
  • U.FL antenna connector (THE PADS ARE RIGHT THERE!!!)
  • JST/PicoBlade battery connector and charging circuit
I've seen a number of hacks where people added U.FL ports back to the board, but I wish it were available out of the box. Is there some regulatory reason for not including it? Plenty of other SBCs include one. It would really help make the Pi Zero 0 a more powerful little device.

I know that adding a battery port and charging circuit would take up space, but why not add it in lieu of the camera connector? Yes, there are lots of people who have solutions which leverage the camera, but I think that would pale in comparison to the number of people who would benefit from a battery-powered Pi. Perhaps make two editions to satisfy both groups. Yes, I know I could get Pimoroni board, but it doesn't provide a charging circuit, and it would be nice to not have to get an add-on. While one could argue space, I've reflow-soldered circuits with charging ICs, and they're REALLY small - one 5-pin SOT-23 IC, two capacitors, and one resistor is all you need. If a battery port can't be added, at least provide the ability to run the Pi from a 4.2-3.3V source.

Alright, that's all. Thanks for a great product, and I look forward to seeing it become even better!
Why do you feel that RPT are not aware of what you are proposing, this type of post is just insulting.
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:42 am

Why do you feel that RPT are not aware of what you are proposing, this type of post is just insulting.
Do RPF read every single post?
Are they even paying attention apart from 6by9 and Jamesh?
Come on, most of the stuff on here is fluff or basic beginner stuff, with a little high end CS stuff.
But hey, if we don't provide user feedback then RPF might think we are completely happy with all their products and they can sack all those software and hardware people :roll:

Users are the ones using these things, with 13millon Pi's out there, some users might have useful input.
Does everyone else read all the posts before saying "hey what about doing this?"
I might have missed the first few years, due to no home network, but I don't remember anyone else saying a JST connector for battery on a Zero is a stupid idea. Adafruit have it on most of their new designs and I thought that was cool when I saw it.

But battery powered Pi's? Well they are low power for PC's but they are not that low.
Of all the Pi's the Zero could and perhaps should evolve toward that.
The missing RTC is causing me some software issues at the moment.
It's not an issue when networked, off net is another story.

I would pay extra for a Zero with RTC and battery stuff and a real low power off.
How much more? $9 for a Zero with this stuff and without WiFi chip.
Battery timelapse camera etc - $12 for WiFi version?
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Burngate
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:51 am

I wouldn't consider it insulting, just shows lack of experience of "the real world".
Also, some sites do welcome users' input. And most people seem to think their own thoughts to be just as valuable as everyone else's, so need to be aired. That's why facebook is so popular - the world must be waiting with baited breath for my two cents' worth of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book.

Odd coincidence: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=180620 within an hour of this thread.
What's odd is that I was thinking "Why add battery connection? U.FL connector? Audio filter? I don't need any of those. I also don't need the WiFi or Bluetooth, or the HDMI connector, if it had a DSI connection, and that would save a couple of components. Mabe even save the HDMI licence cost. But I'm not normal. And nobody's going to be interested in my thoughts, because they have plenty of their own"
Just thought I'd mention it.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:30 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Why do you feel that RPT are not aware of what you are proposing, this type of post is just insulting.
Do RPF read every single post?
Are they even paying attention apart from 6by9 and Jamesh?
Come on, most of the stuff on here is fluff or basic beginner stuff, with a little high end CS stuff.
But hey, if we don't provide user feedback then RPF might think we are completely happy with all their products and they can sack all those software and hardware people :roll:
It is insulting because the RPT are well aware of what other SBCs offer, are aware of cost implications, are aware of where to pitch their products.

Also any profit from RPT is given to RPF so that must also be a consideration.

The OP has made 6 post and would love to see his CV.......
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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alphanumeric
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:56 pm

"Hmm, can a Hat have a RTC on the Hat i2c buss as well? Battery/RTC hat's? note to self: must check."

I have a DS3231 RTC breakout board wired up to a Proto Hat (no EPROM). The Proto Hat is mounted between my Pi A+ and Sense Hat. Everything works without issues. It's basically an Astro Pi with an A+ instead of a 3B. It's all run headless off of a PowerBoost 1000 and a Lithium Ion Battery.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:24 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote: It is insulting because the RPT are well aware of what other SBCs offer, are aware of cost implications, are aware of where to pitch their products.
Funny thing about that... Rather early (a year and a bit after the Pi launched), I had a chance to talk with Dr. Upton. I had a Cubieboard with me and let him examine it. He knew quite a bit about the SoC (Allwinner A10) but had never seen a board with one. He mused that it was unusual for an SBC to expose the SATA port from the SoC. So...yeah. They're on top of what's out there, even if they've never gotten their hands on at least some of it.

On the wider topic here...yes feedback on what features people would value is, I am sure, useful, though the RPF/RPT isn't going to tell you what they do with that knowledge before a new board suddenly appears (well...rare instances otherwise, but generally pretty obvious ones), nor are they going to announce plans (ditto...see RPF display, CM3 and Pi3A).

part of the problem with "wish list" threads is that nearly anyone who starts one is really saying "what *I* want on a Pi is...", usually because they have some particular--and possibly rather uncommon--use in mind. I find that over time, my "wish list" has grown shorter. It's down to a single change that I think would benefit the Pi generally, and some of my uses in particular. While I've seen very few really bad feature ideas, most of the ones I have seen fall into the "nice to have, but hardly essential" range. *Most* such suggestions have other ways to accomplish the same thing, whether by connecting components to a Pi or just using some other SBC. Even the one thing on my "wish list" can be accomplished if I'm willing to give up some "features" of the Pi to get it, chiel among the features of the Pi is excellent software support.

Meanwhile, in the short term, I'm waiting for the release of the Pi3A, even though I'm not really going to *do* anything with one. In the longer term (1 to 2 years) I want to see what the Pi4B brings to the table. If it has what I hope for, then I will wait semi-patiently for a CM4L.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:45 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: part of the problem with "wish list" threads is that nearly anyone who starts one is really saying "what *I* want on a Pi is...", usually because they have some particular--and possibly rather uncommon--use in mind.
The biggest PART is the wisher has absolutely ZERO ideas about architecture of the hardware and never wants to know about the architecture of the hardware :shock:
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Martin Frezman
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:46 pm

The real question is this: Why do the regs here take such glee in pooh pooh'ing these threads - doing their best to make the posters of them feel like yesterday's garbage? What childhood trauma are they (the regs) trying to compensate for?

And, on another note, consider this: If your solution to any "I want the Pi to do <X>" is "Use some other computer", then why did they even bother to improve the RAM/CPU/browser capabilities of the Pi, since the answer (in your logic) would just be "Buy an X86 box and run Wintel. You'll get a working browser and everything else.".

BTW, the reason why a lot of the "wishes" have gone away (in your phrasing, the "wish list has gotten whittled down to only one or two items") is precisely because we now have a working version of the Pi - one with enough RAM and CPU to run a usable browser (Chromium). And for that, the RPF is to be congratulated.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

Heater
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:11 pm

Martin,
The real question is this: Why do the regs here take such glee in pooh pooh'ing these threads - doing their best to make the posters of them feel like yesterday's garbage? What childhood trauma are they (the regs) trying to compensate for?
Let's not go down that road. It's hardly a rational argument when you start dragging your opponents supposed child hood experiences into it, something you cannot possibly know anything about, as a way to devalue their statements.

As it happens I had a very happy childhood. Thanks.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:19 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:The real question is this: Why do the regs here take such glee in pooh pooh'ing these threads - doing their best to make the posters of them feel like yesterday's garbage? What childhood trauma are they (the regs) trying to compensate for?

And, on another note, consider this: If your solution to any "I want the Pi to do <X>" is "Use some other computer", then why did they even bother to improve the RAM/CPU/browser capabilities of the Pi, since the answer (in your logic) would just be "Buy an X86 box and run Wintel. You'll get a working browser and everything else.".

BTW, the reason why a lot of the "wishes" have gone away (in your phrasing, the "wish list has gotten whittled down to only one or two items") is precisely because we now have a working version of the Pi - one with enough RAM and CPU to run a usable browser (Chromium). And for that, the RPF is to be congratulated.
As I have stated before the RPT /RPF are not idiotic people, and whilst I will never have the capacity to design a SBC, I have taken the trouble to have a rudimentary understanding (and yes I get it totally wrong on many many occasions).

It is not rocket science to find information out there on the WWW, so a little research would elicit a "feasible" request, rather than some airy-fairy pie-in-the-sky wish :D

Now where did I put my Mirtazapine :lol: :lol:
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rpdom
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:24 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:The real question is this: Why do the regs here take such glee in pooh pooh'ing these threads - doing their best to make the posters of them feel like yesterday's garbage? What childhood trauma are they (the regs) trying to compensate for?
Perhaps they met you? :lol:

IIRC this isn't the first time you've started attacking people in this way.

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Burngate
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:50 pm

Many websites / fora are places where people can make suggestions for improving the product. This isn't one of them. It's a forum to provide help to users provided by volunteers, not a forum to provide help to the makers from the users.

The product is what it is, its makers know what they're doing, they understand their market.

But it takes a while for newbies to realise this, and until they do, they need careful handling.

Heater
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:18 pm

The real question is this: Why does Martin Frezman question other posters childhoods? What childhood trauma is Martin Frezman trying to compensate for?

No, I don't actually want to know.

Sorry, Martin, but you get the idea I guess.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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DougieLawson
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:06 pm

Heater wrote:The real question is this: Why does Martin Frezman question other posters childhoods? What childhood trauma is Martin Frezman trying to compensate for?

No, I don't actually want to know.

Sorry, Martin, but you get the idea I guess.
Simple answer: ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes&add=Martin+Frezman that's improved my forum experience since I added Martin to the "foes list" so I can ignore his unpleasant and condescending drivel.
Note: Any requirement to use a crystal ball or mind reading will result in me ignoring your question.

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hippy
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:12 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:The real question is this: Why do the regs here take such glee in pooh pooh'ing these threads
We went down that rabbit hole in another thread recently and I can't be bothered going there again. That people choose to respond how they do is their choice. It does bemuse me when some are adamant that something can't be done, won't be done, doesn't fit with the foundation's remit, legal obligations or charitable status, and then the Foundation deliver what was suggested :lol:

Having a ULF connector fitted, a battery connection with battery management on board, and analogue PWM components, are things I think the Pi Zero W would benefit from, and I don't see a problem with anyone saying so. Whether any of those things will ever arrive is up to RPT and RPF and I wouldn't presume to speak on their behalf.

alphanumeric
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:14 pm

How does that saying go? Don't feed the trolls. ;)

hippy
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:24 pm

Burngate wrote:Many websites / fora are places where people can make suggestions for improving the product. This isn't one of them.
Perhaps that should be clearly and obviously stated somewhere, then people would be clear on what they can and can't post.

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CarlRJ
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Re: Future Pi Zero W Suggestion

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:14 pm

Saying, "I wish the Pi had X and Y" isn't insulting.

Saying "OMG the Pi is going to die if they don't immediately add features X and Y, how could the RPF not know this?" often indicates a lack of understanding of the issues involved, and perhaps does border on being insulting. The RPF folk have repeatedly shown themselves to be quite astute (so if you find yourself saying something closer to this second hypothetical quote, maybe don't attack the RPF for not understanding something when you don't have actual proof that they don't understand it; often the RPF knows additional details that you don't).

The U.FL antenna connector the OP wants is unlikely to happen - a Foundation engineer said elsewhere on the forum that the pads are there for their testing purposes, and populating them with a connector would: a) invalidate their current FCC certification; and b) make getting a new certification less likely; because such a connector would c) actively encourage people to attach antennas in a way that would not be certified. So there is an existing stated (and quite reasonable sounding) reason why an antenna connector is unlikely to happen, and the Foundation didn't overlook an opportunity, they chose their path carefully.

Yes, it would be neat if all these little "verified by a Foundation employee but buried in a thread" insights got gathered on a page somewhere that could be referenced.

As to the JST battery connector and charging bits, aside from the cost and space issues mentioned (and no, "just get rid of something that others already like and use" doesn't fly), there may be liability issues - lithium-based rechargeable batteries have safety issues one must pay heed to, and there have been some spectacularly public failures in recent history - if they added a connector and charging circuitry (which would be very useful for robotics and such) and someone managed to burn down their house while using such a Pi (even if it was entirely their own fault), they might come after the RPF. And it doesn't take many lawsuits to drain a non-profit, plus it'd be bad press. I know Adafruit is putting such connectors on many of their boards (I have several), but they sell almost exclusively to hobbyists, while part of the Foundation's goal is to be much more accessible. Personally, I'd welcome such a battery connector, but I think it's unlikely to happen.

Generally, it's not a matter of what one is asking for, but rather how one is asking:
"I'd like to see the Pi add X / I wish the Pi had X" is good (this leads to discussion of how useful, generally applicable, and realistic/fanciful X is; folks may point out the same request has been made numerous times).
"The Pi will LOSE MARKETSHARE AND DIE if it doesn't add X!" is bad (and you are likely to be told rather bluntly why X is unlikely to be added).

As well, some folks (not the OP) who come here to suggest changes seem to insist that they'll only accept comments/answers from employees of the RPF, when this is quite clearly a public/community discussion forum (the obvious way to communicate directly and only with the Foundation is to email them, not post here).

As for the definition of a "working version of the Pi" being "one with enough RAM and CPU to run a usable browser" - I never run a web browser (or X-Windows for that matter) on any of my Pi's. They're all either headless or running custom GUIs with touchscreens. The Pi has been a "working version" since the original model B. Everyone's uses are different. Don't assume otherwise.
rpdom wrote:IIRC this isn't the first time you've started attacking people in this way.
Yes, it's a pattern. An annoying and unhelpful pattern.

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