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PeterO
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:20 am

AntonAV wrote:Any extra money made should be invested in better Raspberry education supporting Pi boards and OSes, not in sponsoring some UK schools / events - anybody club can do that.
You seem to be upset that RPF isn't spending its money in India ? What exactly do you think they spend it on ?
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:36 am

PeterO wrote:
AntonAV wrote:Any extra money made should be invested in better Raspberry education supporting Pi boards and OSes, not in sponsoring some UK schools / events - anybody club can do that.
You seem to be upset that RPF isn't spending its money in India ? What exactly do you think they spend it on ?
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Any money spend by the RPF on any few schools in the UK or anywhere else will only benefit those few schools. Any money spend on improving the RPis hard/software for school education will benefit thousands of schools.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:49 am

AntonAV wrote: Still I wonder If the RPF has not lost its educational focus a bit much; latest new hardware out is the CM3 - not exactly aimed a education. https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-3/ There were 2 earlier versions of this industrial embedded stuff.

Any extra money made should be invested in better Raspberry education supporting Pi boards and OSes, not in sponsoring some (UK) schools / events - any club can do that. Once a good general education supporting set is out, the volume of world wide sales can dwarf the embedded and hobbyist sales by replacing the ocean of PCs in schools.
Perhaps you are confusing the RPF with RPT - Raspberry Pi Foundation versus Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd
The latter is responsible for creating and marketing the Pi computer in its various guises, including the Compute module, with its profits going to the Foundation.

The foundation is a charity promoting education. That takes money, provided in part by RPT
Part of that mission can involve sponsoring some (UK) schools / events. Yes, others could do that, but ... isn't there something in some book or other about Pharisees crossing the road, or was that a chicken?

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:16 am

Don't believe that 10 million Pi-s are sold for education purposes. At least 100,000 are doing real work.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:17 am

...doing real work...
You're going to regret saying that.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:45 am

AntonAV wrote: Any money spend by the RPF on any few schools in the UK or anywhere else will only benefit those few schools. Any money spend on improving the RPis hard/software for school education will benefit thousands of schools.
No. You have to teach the teachers first. And that's what the Foundation is doing in the first place.
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 am

Forrrge wrote:Often I see replies to questions where the response is, why would you want to do that, the RPI was intended as an educational tool ! or those features are not needed as the Pi is intended for education!
My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.

"The Pi's purpose is educational; what you want is therefore not needed" is an easy way to slam the door shut, keep dissenters away, keep the faithful on track.

It is to be expected; one often sees the same with sports clubs where fans will defend the decisions of management, seek to show their loyalty, the same with political parties where members wish to ingratiate themselves with their leadership. It's the same when trying to tell a fan of a make of vehicles that the manufacturer could be doing things differently or better. Same when saying a music band ought to change. I am sure there are many other examples where there's tribalism or a fan-base involved.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:00 pm

There is a saying that "Charity begins at home".

I'm not sure what the complaint is about here. The Pi hardware is available world wide. It has been developing and improving steadily since the beginning. I guess the educational materials, this forum and whatever else is available world wide as well.

What more do you want?!
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:04 pm

hippy wrote: My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.
My impression is that it mostly comes from people who have seen how the RPT/RPF act and actually understand what it is they do, why they do it, and realise that the RPF/RPT know their business better than some person who has just signed up to the forums to post their personal wish list for new features that they need for their project or business.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:12 pm

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote:It is worth noting that the RPF is a charity, who sole purpose, according to its charter, is education. That means that is clearly its primary focus!

HOWEVER, selling huge numbers of devices to industry means that educational aim can be paid for, and very well indeed.

So to hit the primary target, you need to hit industry as well, if not more. Because money is what make the educational side work. And money comes from selling as many Pi's as possible, to whomever wants them.
Still I wonder If the RPF has not lost its educational focus a bit much; latest new hardware out is the CM3 - not exactly aimed a education. https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-3/ There were 2 earlier versions of this industrial embedded stuff.

Any extra money made should be invested in better Raspberry education supporting Pi boards and OSes, not in sponsoring some (UK) schools / events - any club can do that. Once a good general education supporting set is out, the volume of world wide sales can dwarf the embedded and hobbyist sales by replacing the ocean of PCs in schools.
Er, what?

RPF does not target specific schools, does not donate money like that. It's money is spent on curricula, on training teachers. On things like Code Club. Nothing school specific. Check out the tutorials section here on the website, all targeted at education. Check out Picademy posts.

A LOT of money is also spent on engineering (Good engineers are expensive), both SW and HW, to improve the OS, the firmware, the userland supplied code, the boards etc. You'll find that the next two or three or four HW releases are not CM's!

Your point on the CM is an odd one. I'm sure you will have heard of the phrase "speculate to accumulate'. The CM does exactly that, by getting the Pi in to industrial units, the educational side benefits massively. Industrial stuff sells in HUGE quantities. That means HUGE profits which get ploughed back in to education. industry wins, education wins.

I not sure where you think the money is spent, but to be frank, it's spent on exactly what YOU want it spent on.
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:18 pm

PeterO wrote:
hippy wrote: My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.
My impression is that it mostly comes from people who have seen how the RPT/RPF act and actually understand what it is they do, why they do it, and realise that the RPF/RPT know their business better than some person who has just signed up to the forums to post their personal wish list for new features that they need for their project or business.

PeterO
Except the Pi has its utility well beyond educational purposes as the RPT/RPF clearly recognise, so dismissing any change as not fitting with an educational purpose is seeking to constrain what a Pi is to something which it clearly is not.

Some people do seem to have set themselves up as High Priests of Pidom, and have taken it upon themselves to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT/RPF.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 pm

hippy wrote: Except the Pi has its utility well beyond educational purposes as the RPT/RPF clearly recognise, so dismissing any change as not fitting with an educational purpose is seeking to constrain what a Pi is to something which it clearly is not.
Well the people who think the PI should be constrained to just education don't fall into the category I mentioned above. I quoted the RPF mission statement earlier in the thread (you did read the thread before joining in didn't you?) which shows the RPF knows what it's products are being used for, and where RPT can make money to support the RPF's aims. I find it amusing that after 12 million sales people still think the RPF/RPT need to be told how to run their own business.
Some people do seem to have set themselves up as High Priests of Pidom, and have taken it upon themselves to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT/RPF.
And I think you'll find that if they get it wrong the RPF will quickly put them right !
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 pm

hippy wrote:
PeterO wrote:
hippy wrote: My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.
My impression is that it mostly comes from people who have seen how the RPT/RPF act and actually understand what it is they do, why they do it, and realise that the RPF/RPT know their business better than some person who has just signed up to the forums to post their personal wish list for new features that they need for their project or business.

PeterO
Except the Pi has its utility well beyond educational purposes as the RPT/RPF clearly recognise, so dismissing any change as not fitting with an educational purpose is seeking to constrain what a Pi is to something which it clearly is not.

Some people do seem to have set themselves up as High Priests of Pidom, and have taken it upon themselves to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT/RPF.
The irony is strong in this one.

I think the point which people are trying to make, is that certain requests are so far from helping the educational aim that they can indeed be dismissed out of hand. Changes that benefit the vast majority clearly don't come in to that category, as things with that level of benefit will result in higher Pi sales. But some suggestions have such a small impact on sales that they really can be ignored.

Of course, on the whole, a suggestion that helps educationally will also be useful the the larger market, and vica versa.
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:26 pm

hippy wrote:My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.
My impression is that there is a great deal of engineering experience represented on this board that has grown weary of people asking for a screwdriver that is more adept at pounding nails.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:42 pm

Yes the RPi was designed as a educational , for learning programing and electronics.
Using the RPi in a industrial application should not be seen as normal practice,
No theRPi as not out lived it:s first designee, It is the first learning stage,and must not
Be designed as plug and play, Learners must master no1 before moving to no2
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:51 pm

hippy wrote:My impression of that is it mostly comes from those eager to defend RPT/RPF decision making who wish to show their loyalty and support for the RPT/RPF in dismissing requests for change.
I think you are seeing what you want to see, rather than what really is. And that's a pretty twisted way to look at it - you're assigning a bunch of motivations to other people that I don't think are there.
hippy wrote:Some people do seem to have set themselves up as High Priests of Pidom, and have taken it upon themselves to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT/RPF.
Do you really think that Eben Upton should take the time to personally reply to each and every such forum post? Wouldn't you rather he and his engineers spend their time on, you know, designing and building even better hardware?

You appear to be suggesting that nobody should make any comments on posts asking for new Pi features other than RPF/RPT engineers and executives. That's not how a community forum works (the very nature and intent of the thing is that members of the community are free to respond and to try to help each other), and that would be a waste of the engineer's/executive's time in many cases. If someone wants responses only from RPF/RPT directly, then posting their plea on the forum is their mistake. They should instead have sent email directly to RPF/RPT. If you don't want discussion by the community then don't post on a community discussion forum.

When someone comes in the door and announces that the Pi is going to sink into obscurity unless it immediately adds augmented reality contact lenses, or 4GB of ram, or some such, I may (speaking for myself, others may differ) point out why their plea is likely to go unfulfilled. Would you really rather that no one post any comments at all on such a thread, until such time as one of the employees of RPF/RPT comes along?

Again, when I, personally, comment on such threads, I am NOT saying, "I declare that you can't have such a thing", I am saying, "it is unlikely that those in charge will do as you ask, for the following reasons which have been seen here several times before..." I do NOT consider myself a "High Priest of Pidom" (I didn't even know that was a job title -- ooh, they should put that on t-shirts), but I have watched this episode several times before, so I can can give you some hints on how it is likely to end.

What you appear to be requesting is for nobody other than RPF/RPT employees to comment on threads that insist that new features be added to the Pi. And you want forum members on this community support forum to shut up and not offer any hints as to what that answer is likely to be. Is that right?

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:15 pm

CarlRJ wrote:You appear to be suggesting that nobody should make any comments on posts asking for new Pi features other than RPF/RPT engineers and executives.
No; what I am saying is "The Pi is educational so what you want is not needed" seems to sometimes be used to shoo people away.

I can't help but feel that some who cheer for the CM range would have rejected that as not having educational value if a poster had come to suggest doing that.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:52 pm

jamesh wrote: A LOT of money is also spent on engineering (Good engineers are expensive), both SW and HW, to improve the OS, the firmware, the userland supplied code, the boards etc. You'll find that the next two or three or four HW releases are not CM's!
In one sense, I am expecting a new CM possibly before anything else, but it won't be from the RPT, but from NEC, the CM3-16. From the RPT, I expect to see the Pi3A and Pi4B before the next CM...if the right feature is there, a CM4 and a CM4L.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:02 pm

hippy wrote: "The Pi's purpose is educational; what you want is therefore not needed" is an easy way to slam the door shut, keep dissenters away, keep the faithful on track.
There is a way around that, that even if it doesn't get much support on the Forums, at least doesn't get peoples backs up and a lot of negative comments about "not being needed for the educational mission". That is, show that a suggested feature would have a positive benefit in an educational setting. Thus, improving external I/O speed would open the door to a truly effective Pi-based classroom server, thus dropping the cost to provide a way to store student files and backups as well as a central control point for the teacher. The fact that an effective classroom server could be based on a Pi would mean that many other applications that need reasonably fast access to data stores that are larger--and more reliable--than one typically wants to pay for in an SD card open up as well. So...win-win. Something actually *useful* for education that has far wider applications as well.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:22 am

jamesh wrote: .Check out the tutorials section here on the website, all targeted at education. Check out Picademy posts.
Picademy collected just 713 posts on this forum, very low compared to almost all other topics. The whole education section got about 13,000 posts; camera board got 33,000, media centers 22,000, automation 40,000, C/C++ 15,000. The present active user base here is not from the education field.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:37 am

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote: .Check out the tutorials section here on the website, all targeted at education. Check out Picademy posts.
Picademy collected just 713 posts on this forum, very low compared to almost all other topics. The whole education section got about 13,000 posts; camera board got 33,000, media centers 22,000, automation 40,000, C/C++ 15,000. The present active user base here is not from the education field.
Educators post in forums outside the education section. Some of us are hesitant to post in the education section when we aren't in the business, so that tends to restrict activity as well. It is undoubtedly true, though, that there are far more non-educators than educators on these forums, just as far more Pis have been sold for uses outside of formal education than within that field. Still...I think you are reading too much into the statistics.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:48 am

The Raspberry Pi boards are not "educational tools" at all, at least not by themselves. They are simply a range of fully usable small computer boards (SBCs) ranging from 5 to 35 $, affordable for almost everyone.

The goal of the Foundation to create these boards has been an educational one: Make the computer board cheap enough to give one to each child in a class room or - even more important - to give one to every child to use it at home. The Foundation had computer education in mind, but this could be expanded to using the small computers for amost everything.

In Germany, for example, it is "unofficially" expected that every pupil in secondary schools older than about 15 years owns his own laptop running Windows and the MS Office software, which is almost impossible for kids from poorer families or for famlies with a lot of children. Everything they have to do with these laptops could be done with a Raspberry Pi (2 or 3) running Open/LibreOffice and any kind of web browser, but 99% of all teachers are too stupid to be aware of this and most of them wouldn't even know what to do with an OpenOffice file. And if you would give such teachers a Raspberry Pi they wouldn't know how to use it all.

The RPi Foundation has started something like a revolution by bringing the prices down to a maximum of 35$ and the next Raspberry Pi generation might well be a full replacement of desktop computers, at least (but not only) for kids. The biggest limitation at the moment is not processor or IO speed but RAM (just open a few web pages with chromium and it will slow down while swapping). In a way this reminds me of the revolution of the late seventies and early eighties, when the first "home computers" became available (and IBM thought these little things were not real computers at all).

Of course the market for the Raspberry Pis is not limited to the educational area at all and it's this commercial success which provides the money for the educational work of the Foundation. There are lots of imitators trying to get a share of this market (and some of their boards are technically more advanced), but all of them miss the kind of support you get for the RPi and the large RPi community.

This forum is not really discussing education (and the role of computers in education) at all and sometimes I think that the Foudation doesn't really want this. The forum is mostly run (and moderated) by "nerds" who don't want to discuss the role of computers in real life and how to educate kids to get along with this. This is not refrained to learning programming computers (which I consider really important), but includes the social and political aspects of using computers as well. The future of jobs when robots are doing most of the work, for example, or the role of the giant companies who try to own and use our personal data. Discussions about such themes are rare and often stopped as "politics" or "company bashing". But themes like these must be part of any kind of real education.
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:31 am

gkreidl wrote:The Raspberry Pi boards are not "educational tools" at all, at least not by themselves. They are simply a range of fully usable small computer boards (SBCs) ranging from 5 to 35 $, affordable for almost everyone.
In Germany, for example, it is "unofficially" expected that every pupil in secondary schools older than about 15 years owns his own laptop running Windows and the MS Office software, which is almost impossible for kids from poorer families or for famlies with a lot of children. Everything they have to do with these laptops could be done with a Raspberry Pi (2 or 3) ..
The RPi Foundation has started something like a revolution by bringing the prices down to a maximum of 35$ and the next Raspberry Pi generation might well be a full replacement of desktop computers, at least (but not only) for kids. The biggest limitation at the moment is not processor or IO speed but RAM
.
The Intel / Microsoft / Apple club is not interested in cheap hardware / operating systems for low requirement education as the profits are seen as too low, plus the risk of spill over beyond schools in looming. the ARM business model is disruptive here, thankfully. Before cheap mobile phones ( Chinese, with USB C) take over part of this market the Raspberry Pi might claim a good stake there, but time is of the essence.
Or maybe accommodating hobbyists and embedded niches is just too addictive.

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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:26 am

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote: .Check out the tutorials section here on the website, all targeted at education. Check out Picademy posts.
Picademy collected just 713 posts on this forum, very low compared to almost all other topics. The whole education section got about 13,000 posts; camera board got 33,000, media centers 22,000, automation 40,000, C/C++ 15,000. The present active user base here is not from the education field.
Over 1000 people (mostly teachers) have been through Picademy, which is a two day FREE course on using the Pi in education. The forum post count is not an accurate bellwether. Teachers tend to have their own forums and places to exchange information.

Also, check out CodeClub (merged with the RPF) for other educational stuff. https://www.codeclub.org.uk/
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Re: Is the RPi "just" an educational tool ?

Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:28 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:There is a way around that, that even if it doesn't get much support on the Forums, at least doesn't get peoples backs up and a lot of negative comments about "not being needed for the educational mission". That is, show that a suggested feature would have a positive benefit in an educational setting.
But why should a suggested feature need to be shown to have benefit in an educational setting ?

That's the crux of the matter; that suggestions are being dismissed if they don't have benefit in an educational setting when the Pi isn't constrained to only being of benefit in an educational settings.

The OP was asking why suggestions are given the "no educational benefit" dismissal when that isn't a legitimate reason to dismiss suggestions out of hand.

Whether educationally beneficial or not, we already accept that anything which sells more Pi helps the RPF goals in generating more revenue, as with the CM range.

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