Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:32 pm

Cheap Chineses tablets are getting better these days as Via 8505 processors are kicked out by more powerfull A8 with 1080P playback abilities.
After rooting, they will run the same Linuxes as the Raspi but you will have a 7 inch multitouch touchscreen, power supply, a 4 hours battery, Wifi, gravity sensor, webcam, 4 Mb internal storage, HDMI, 2 Usb, RJ45, headphones...
And for harware hackers, you still can connect a cheap Arduino through Usb.
http://hongkongeek.com/67-ecran-resistif
For now 72 € will get you a 512 Mb RAM model but will hopefully drop to 50 € in a year or so.
And that\'s including shipping cost, manufacturer and retailer profit !

Maybe it will be easier for the Foundation to distribute such a tablet along with a suitable Linux distro (kids and programming oriented). Or just concentrate on crafting a distro.
At a time when amazing games are just a click away, G sensors and touch screens will add some appeal to programing. The integrated webcam will also allow to give OpenCV and augmented reality a try. Such a thing is needed to lure kids.
What do you think about it ?

ed: Also if the $50 pricetag is too high, i wonder what the cost of the motherboard is when you remove the expensive stuff : display, battery... Less than $30 for shure !

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Jongoleur
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:53 pm

Ok, I\'ll bite.

How do you want to program the bugger?
Poke and pray, even at a cap screen is much akin to programming the beloved ZX81, of blessed memory - not for nothing was it called a \"dead-finger\" keyboard! and the feel for the structure of a program would be lost, peering into a 7\" screen, half obstructed by a touch keypad.

Plug it into the HDMI port on your TV, I hear you ask?

Then you\'re tethered, just like a Raspberry Pi, without the benefit of a decent keyboard and pointing device, and if you get a bluetooth keyboard and mouse to get around that, then why waste all that dosh on a restrictive little tablet when you can do exactly the same thing on a cheaper Pi?

:-)

Nevermind, there are reasons to have a tablet, like consuming content and errr... well, if its flexibility you want, to do all the things that have been already suggested for the Pi on this forum, then the Pi is good enough and will be with us RSN. Unlike the tablet.

edit:

And 72 euros including shipping? Yes ok, now which model was that?. Then there\'ll be import duty, VAT and your local delivery system will charge an agents fee for administering the government fees. Buy them by the container and you have to hope that you can compete on price with all the other cheap android importers.
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reiuyi
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Your forum topic has the title \"50$ tablet\", yet your posts talks about something that costs €72 excluding import tax. Do you realize this tablet costs >125$ once you finally have it in your hands? That\'s 5 times the costs of a raspberry pi. The team has said it many times before; one of the objectives of the Raspberry Pi is to stimulate the UK IT industry and to provide better educational means. To achieve the former objective, nearly all of the work (including PCB-printing, some bits assembly by hand) is done in Great Britain, thus stimulating the IT market.

(very off-topic) One of the possible reason the EU and USA are currently in a financial crisis is because companies sought out cheaper means of getting their (electronic) products made. This model is based on individual gain and makes a profit for the Chinese and for the company selling it. It may appear good for the Western society; yet at the same time this model stimulates a net outflow of money. You will probably understand a net outflow is not sustainable in the long run. Read up on macroeconomics to understand why it is good for the UK that the Raspberry Pi is produced in the UK and not in China. After all, import tax was introduced partly to stimulate production in the EU itself (to protect our own economies). Until a couple of decades ago, nearly every (electronic) device was produced in Europe. I remember owning many radio amplifiers and speakers made in Britain, many cameras and lenses made in Japan and light bulbs made in Holland. Companies gave ALL these jobs away to low-wage countries. We\'re talking about millions of jobs being lost due to individual gain

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:58 pm

Then buy just a tablet\'s motherboard !

Ed: that was my answer to Jongoleur.

obarthelemy
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:05 pm

I bought one on those cheap ones, and threw it away after 3 months.
- extremely bad touchscreen (not only resistive, but *bad* resistive), took about 5 tries *on average* for a touch to register, and 3 steps (so, 15 \"touches\") to move an icon across the screen.
- random reboots 1+ times per hour
- final straw, started locking up when disconnecting from the charger.

I had a much better experience with a $150 Ainol novo8, which had a wonderful screen, but a very poor 3hr battery life (I was forewarned, though).

I personally think an old-school PC built into a keyboard+mouse+PSU enclosure and with room to hide USB dongles (wifi, BT) inside the casing makes more sense than a tablet for teaching purposes, though a tablet with a separate keyboard does sound practical too. Tablets arealready plentiful though, so there\'s no need for Pi to do Yet Another One

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:35 pm

[quote]Quote from reiuyi on December 18, 2011, 19:57
Your forum topic has the title \"50$ tablet\", yet your posts talks about something that costs €72 excluding import tax. Do you realize this tablet costs >125$ once you finally have it in your hands? That\'s 5 times the costs of a raspberry pi. [/quote]
You did not read my post carefully : i said \"in a year\", yet you can have now a ROCKCHIP RK2808 400MHZ for 47€ (shipping from Hong Kong included and import taxes refunded if customs get their hands on your parcel )
and 60 € will get you this : [quote]7\" NETBOOK A702 VIA8650 800MHZ ANDROID 2.2 2GB MEMORY 256 MB DDR2 RAM WIFI [/quote]
http://hongkongeek.com/tablette-mid/363 ... -rj45.html

and that\'s including shipping and profit for both manufacturer and retailer ! This is similar to Raspi B, powerwise.
Now just imagine what is the cost of the motherboard alone, as touchscreen, battery, wifi chipset, webcam, G sensor have the bigger share of the cost .

[quote]The team has said it many times before; one of the objectives of the Raspberry Pi is to stimulate the UK IT industry and to provide better educational means. To achieve the former objective, nearly all of the work (including PCB-printing, some bits assembly by hand) is done in Great Britain, thus stimulating the IT market.
[/quote]
That is all to their honor, but even 10000s boards wil not increase British GDP very much ! [quote]
(very off-topic) One of the possible reason the EU and USA are currently in a financial crisis is because companies sought out cheaper means of getting their (electronic) products made. This model is based on individual gain and makes a profit for the Chinese and for the company selling it. It may appear good for the Western society; yet at the same time this model stimulates a net outflow of money. You will probably understand a net outflow is not sustainable in the long run. Read up on macroeconomics to understand why it is good for the UK that the Raspberry Pi is produced in the UK and not in China. After all, import tax was introduced partly to stimulate production in the EU itself (to protect our own economies). Until a couple of decades ago, nearly every (electronic) device was produced in Europe. I remember owning many radio amplifiers and speakers made in Britain, many cameras and lenses made in Japan and light bulbs made in Holland. Companies gave ALL these jobs away to low-wage countries. We\'re talking about millions of jobs being lost due to individual gain[/quote]

Fully agreed, but that was just Globalization Part one, now wages are rising very rapidly in China, in less than 10 years they will be no more competive, that has already begun for some products (textile, garement, wich are outsourced to India or Bangladesh).
Still, China is much more poorer than UK, can we refuse developpment of poor nations while we are much more affluent ?

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johnbeetem
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:41 pm

[quote]Quote from obarthelemy on December 18, 2011, 20:05
Tablets arealready plentiful though, so there\'s no need for Pi to do Yet Another One[/quote]

I have yet to see a tablet or laptop I\'d find worth buying. I want 12\" screen, ARMv7 processor or similar for very long battery life, and GNU/Linux. Almost all tablets these days are Android, which seems to have a pretty nasty learning curve for porting my X11/GNU application. OLPC XO-3 looks pretty good, but it\'s still just a concept.

So I\'m still tied to the desktop. Beats having to share keypunches.

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:52 pm

[quote]Quote from obarthelemy on December 18, 2011, 20:05
Tablets are already plentiful though, so there\'s no need for Pi to do Yet Another One[/quote]

Yes, but basicly, the Pi is a tablet motherboard, minus wifi, Gsensor and webcam !

obarthelemy
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:25 pm

@johnbeteem: Samsung Android Tab with 11.6\" screen @ humongous resolution strongly rumored for feb. I\'m sure It\'ll be promptly rooted and linuxed. In the mean time, Asus EP121 or Samsung something-something, x86 and 3hr battery... Most Android tablets can be linuxed, \"there\'s an app for that\".

@piw32: you can say that of anything ARM-based these days, since ARM CPUs are almost all designed as smartphone CPUs.

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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 pm

[quote]Quote from Piw32 on December 18, 2011, 20:35
Still, China is much more poorer than UK, can we refuse developpment of poor nations while we are much more affluent ?[/quote]

China owns the USA and much of Europe. Check out the bond market. Not sure you can call China much poorer than the UK. Lower standard of living for the majority, but not poorer as a country.
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 pm

[quote]Quote from Piw32 on December 18, 2011, 20:35
Still, China is much more poorer than UK, can we refuse developpment of poor nations while we are much more affluent ?[/quote]

China owns the USA and much of Europe. Check out the bond market. Not sure you can call China much poorer than the UK. Lower standard of living for the majority, but not poorer as a country.
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willrandship
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:21 pm

Also, it\'s worth mentioning that the link you showed had tablets running at nearly half the CPU speed, and with no GPU at all. (A great strength for the Pi) I would gladly pay $5 more for doubling the capability.

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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:28 pm

I agree with the OP that except for the hardware programming (GPIO) the RasPi doesn\'t have much to offer compared to a cheapish tablet (especially because it has no display).
One point though, it is very hard to port an Android tablet to GNU Linux. I have yet to see such a port that has everything going, including hardware 3D acceleration. I am looking for a cheapish ARM Linux tablet for a long time, and the closest I could find were some Archos devices (but no 3D).


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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:59 pm

Since when is a 400 mhz chip with no hardware accelleration equal to a 700 mhz one with a high-end GPU installed?

macemoneta
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:19 am

[quote]Quote from obarthelemy on December 18, 2011, 23:35
http://www.archos.com/support/support_t ... us&lang=en

nothing for gen9 yet.[/quote]

You don\'t need an SDE for Gen9; see here.

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:41 am

[quote]Quote from willrandship on December 18, 2011, 23:59
Since when is a 400 mhz chip with no hardware accelleration equal to a 700 mhz one with a high-end GPU installed?[/quote]

I said : In a few months (weeks?), those will be kicked out of the market (no one is making RK2808 or WM8505 tablets anymore, they just sell old stock) and the entry level will be replaced with something at least equivalent to the Pi, but likely with 512 Mb of RAM.
Maybe the GPU will only be Mali 200 class, but is a high-end GPU required to learn programming ?

Also, with the release of the Tegra 3, the $38 Tegra 2 will get cheaper and force other chips to compete.

http://mp4nation.net/blog/2011/03/the-b ... et-market/

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:46 am

[quote]Quote from radu on December 18, 2011, 23:28
I agree with the OP that except for the hardware programming (GPIO) the RasPi doesn\'t have much to offer compared to a cheapish tablet (especially because it has no display).
One point though, it is very hard to port an Android tablet to GNU Linux. I have yet to see such a port that has everything going, including hardware 3D acceleration. I am looking for a cheapish ARM Linux tablet for a long time, and the closest I could find were some Archos devices (but no 3D).[/quote]

That\'s true, but there\'s a large number of platforms with small communities.
If there was a leading platform it will gain a large community who can release fine tuned distros.

willrandship
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:01 am

There is a homebrew scene I want to point to: The GP2x. It\'s a great example of why being the very very top of the scene is not necessary to create a wonderful developing community. The Pi will not be as outdated as the GP2x was (in its prime time) for a few years, and I strongly believe that it will acquire a similar following. Wait a minute, it already has. :P

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:18 am

Quote from Rhombus :
[quote]The Allwinner A10 CPU has been developed in, and is sold in, the People\'s Republic of China. Its mass-volume price is around $7, yet it is a 400-pin highly feature-rich 1.5ghz ARM Cortex A8 with a MALI400 GPU. It has the distinction of having the highest bang-per-buck ratio of any SoC available at the time of writing, by quite a margin. Its price and features is causing massive disruption of the tablet market in China (a minor recession was caused by widespread cancellation of prior committments to other SoCs!), as every factory in Shenzen scrambles to compete with hundreds of other factories for the same end-user market: tablets and PVRs.[/quote]
So, yes, those tablets will drive market prices down very quickly !

http://micdigi.com/?s=allwinner

bnolsen
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:23 am

[quote]Quote from willrandship on December 19, 2011, 03:01
The Pi will not be as outdated as the GP2x was (in its prime time) for a few years, and I strongly believe that it will acquire a similar following. Wait a minute, it already has. :P[/quote]

The one danger to the rpi would be if one of the other SOC manufacturers decided to subsidize an rpi competitor.

Now a good question would be: why would another SOC manufacturer want to do this? And when they figure it out, it might be too late.

hippy
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:15 pm

[quote]Quote from willrandship on December 18, 2011, 23:59
Since when is a 400 mhz chip with no hardware accelleration equal to a 700 mhz one with a high-end GPU installed?[/quote]

It\'s not about equality but what one wants to do with it. A less capable CPU won\'t do as much as a more capable one will but if it does enough then that\'s just fine.

My personal hobby horse is information displays and a dirt-cheap Digital Picture Frame is all I really need -- If only they were more open, had networking, I knew what I was doing and had community support to help me do it.

[quote]Quote from bnolsen on December 19, 2011, 03:23
The one danger to the rpi would be if one of the other SOC manufacturers decided to subsidize an rpi competitor.[/quote]

There wouldn\'t need to be any explicit attempt; just the availability of a cheap SoC that suits and a board that happens to be easily usable. It doesn\'t even have to happen by design, just by fortunate coincidence.

Digital Picture Frames seem to be fast disappearing as a past fad but cheap Tablets are becoming the latest fad and the Far East is likely to drive down prices just as they did for digital cameras, LCD and DPF. It\'s not impossible to have something emerge which is comparable or better than R-Pi with competitive pricing. It wouldn\'t take much for a developer in China to realise that adding USB host, a network port and VGA/HDMI may turn their $20 parts cost board into a hackers delight and open up new markets. Some DPF\'s are 90% there already hardware wise; for example the Elonex One seemed to be a repurposed DPF.

As to whether that\'s a risk or threat to R-Pi I don\'t know. The R-Pi would still remain valid and it\'s about more than just the hardware and price.

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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:29 pm

[quote]Quote from Piw32 on December 19, 2011, 01:41
Also, with the release of the Tegra 3, the $38 Tegra 2 will get cheaper and force other chips to compete.
http://mp4nation.net/blog/2011/03/the-b ... et-market/[/quote]

True, but there is a lower limit past which these devices cannot go (i.e. they are limited by their die size). I believe (could be wrong) that the Tegra 2 is quite a large die (same 40nm as BRCM2835), so its minimum price would be higher that the BRCM2835 with its smaller die, given similar volumes.
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reiuyi
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:47 pm

[quote]Quote from Piw32 on December 18, 2011, 20:35
Fully agreed, but that was just Globalization Part one, now wages are rising very rapidly in China, in less than 10 years they will be no more competive, that has already begun for some products (textile, garement, wich are outsourced to India or Bangladesh).
Still, China is much more poorer than UK, can we refuse developpment of poor nations while we are much more affluent ?[/quote]

Fora are places I usually don\'t wish to visit due to many different viewpoints colliding (meaning no one agrees with anyone and no work is done whatsoever). I\'ll reply for this time; I am NOT willing to give up my wealth to make an incredibly rich and corrupt developing country even richer. The mod said it already; the amount of money China has lent to the USA and EU is ridiculous. You nor I cannot imagine the magnitude of the sums.

I would rather see everyday products being made in Europe where we do value human rights, where there is no child labour and workers are often treated with respect to their health and to their worker\'s rights. If you wish cheaper products, you have to accept \"modern day slavery\" and child labour. Now compare that to the genuine hard honest work done by the Raspi team, Broadcom\'s British factory workers and the guys at Royal Mail who all get paid a fair wage and actually have rights. When will we finally accept ethics as a necessary part of a product\'s production process? Money has been playing such an important part in the world, that we\'re forgetting there are human beings behind each product.

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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:47 pm

I agree pretty much with your thoughts there, just one factual inconsistency. Broadcom do not have factory workers in the UK - they have lots of engineers and support staff (IMO the best in the whole company, but I am biased..!), but the chip manufacture is subbed out (Broadcom are fabless). They do go to the Far East, but not China. I am not sure where PCB\'s are manufactured.
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