lkcl
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:25 am

JamesH said:


Couple of points, why are you using the Raspi website to advertise your own product?

And secondly, your figures for SoC prices on the previous page are WAY OUT. I'll leave you to figure out where.



james, i apologise for the discrepancy between that which you believe should happen and that which is happening.  i apologise but i cannot help you with the discrepancies, nor with your belief.

additionally i am definitely not in a position to prevent people from initiating topics and discussions on this forum.  i apologise for pointing out that the username of the initiator of this topic is not "lkcl".

i apologise but if you feel strongly that people should not enter into or initiate discussions then may i respectfully suggest that you consider censoring this site?

also i apologise for not knowing the pricing of broadcom NDA-privileged CPUs.

also i apologise for wronging you in some way which makes you believe that there is something offensive about me engaging with people on this forum.  i can tell that you are clearly offended, but i cannot help you with that, i can only apologise for the circumstances in which that offense occurred within your own mind.

also i apologise for not being particularly good at apologies, they are often misunderstood to be attempts to score "points".  such point-scoring is, in the context of you working towards a non-profit-orientated goal of providing low-cost educational hardware that utilises the benefits of Software (Libre), and me working towards a CIC "Social Business" orientated goal of providing low-cost mass-volume hardware that utilises the benefits of Software (Libre), is both counter-productive and definitely in nobody's best interests.

at the risk of further offending you, but acting in the interests of both projects, can i respectfully suggest that you give serious consideration to rapidly resolving whatever issues that you have?  if you find this suggestion offensive i can only apologise, but on this and other forums, our respective projects are too important to have personal egos get in the way.

i trust that you will realise this, in the near-to-immediate future, and that future interactions - on this forum, and as a representative of the raspberrypi foundation, will respect that.

jamesh
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:55 am

Whuh? I'm not offended? Why would you think I am? I'm just wondering why you are spending so much time here advertising and discussing your own ideas/product, when you have you own website where this could be done. It's a simple question. With what I think is a simple answer.

As to the pricing. You stated in a previous post some figures, and the way you stated them implied that you knew they were pretty accurate. They were not. I pointed that out. There is no way you can know what the pricing is, and I don't believe you should have stated figures for which you had no evidence.

I won't be giving any consideration to resolving any issues I have, because I don't have any, and if I was going to censure your posts, I would have done so long before now! People are welcome to discuss  as much as they like, as shown by the fact that this discussion has been allowed to continue when it is fairly unrelated to the RaspberryPi. If I had been offended by any of this discussion, this thread would have disappeared  a while ago.

I fear it might be your ego coming to the fore here, not mine, and i don't think this needs to be discussed any further.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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Prometheus
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:11 am

lkcl said:

ahh, thank you for the correction.  i shall go beat my friend about the head (the one who reads the openpandora forums)

Ouch!

Anyway, do pardon me - I thought that you were the same lkcl who has posted over there.

tonycollinet
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:28 pm

lkcl said:


JamesH said:


Couple of points, why are you using the Raspi website to advertise your own product?

And secondly, your figures for SoC prices on the previous page are WAY OUT. I'll leave you to figure out where.


james, i apologise........yada yada yada


ikcl - with that incredibly bad mannered post, you have made certain that I would not be interested in your project - even if I were before. I wonder if I am the only one.

Wooloomooloo
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:46 pm

tonycollinet said:

ikcl - with that incredibly bad mannered post, you have made certain that I would not be interested in your project - even if I were before. I wonder if I am the only one.
On the internets, you're never the only one in anything. Just as surely as you can bet there will be others (plural) who see things the exact opposite way. I suppose I would be one of them.

Neil
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:09 pm

lkcl's post is classic passive-aggressive.

jamesh
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:29 pm

Neil said:


lkcl's post is classic passive-aggressive.


And mine was classic "WTF was that all about?"...!!!

Happy New Year Neil!
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johnbeetem
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:36 pm

Neil said:


lkcl's post is classic passive-aggressive.


I would prefer to think that lkcl's post is a literary reference to Monty Python's "Politicians — an Apology":


… IT WAS NEVER OUR INTENTION TO IMPLY THAT POLITICIANS ARE WEAK-KNEED, POLITICAL TIME-SERVERS WHO ARE CONCERNED MORE WITH THEIR PERSONAL VENDETTAS AND PRIVATE POWER STRUGGLES THAN THE PROBLEMS OF GOVERNMENT, NOR TO SUGGEST AT ANY POINT…


Unfortunately, lckl's post also made me think of another Monty Python quote:


Well I'm afraid I shan't be coming on your expedition sir, as I've absolutely no confidence in anyone involved in it.


An open source project depends on having a helpful community. Sprinkling petrol around and tossing in a lit match is not a good way to build a helpful community. Too bad, it seemed like a promising little gadget.

lkcl
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:50 pm

JamesH said:


Whuh? I'm not offended? Why would you think I am?


ah, i apologise again: the shortness of the questions gave the impression that you were offended that i had spoken.


I'm just wondering why you are spending so much time here advertising and discussing your own ideas/product, when you have you own website where this could be done. It's a simple question. With what I think is a simple answer.


because i am a literal-minded asperger's engineering-type, not a marketing person, and there are people asking questions (in this context, on this forum) so i answer them.

i did not answer previously because i was more concerned at the tone of the questioning.  actually, i was (and still am) deeply concerned [for the raspberrypi project.  reasons why will become clear, below].


As to the pricing. You stated in a previous post some figures, and the way you stated them implied that you knew they were pretty accurate. They were not. I pointed that out. There is no way you can know what the pricing is,


yes.  that is why i added either the word "estimate" or the word "approximately".


and I don't believe you should have stated figures for which you had no evidence.


so, why not assist everyone and provide that information, instead of writing a message which attempts to make me, in a public forum, look like a fool, thus undermining *both* projects?


I won't be giving any consideration to resolving any issues I have, because I don't have any, and if I was going to censure your posts,I would have done so long before now!


i said "censor in general".


People are welcome to discuss  as much as they like, as shown by the fact that this discussion has been allowed to continue when it is fairly unrelated to the RaspberryPi.


i'm not sure how to respond to that.  there have been a number of discussions which are useful comparisons between the raspberry pi processor and the allwinner a10, some pricing comparisons between the raspberry pi processor (with estimates because the broadcom pricing is closed) and the allwinner processor, one discussion involving an X-windows idea for raspberry pi.  i believe you may have responded to and participated in some of those discussions.


If I had been offended by any of this discussion, this thread would have disappeared  a while ago.



I fear it might be your ego coming to the fore here, not mine, and i don't think this needs to be discussed any further.


james - i have an ability to read beyond the words, into the intent behind the words.  i have encountered a number of project leaders involved in free software and open projects who find my "presence" to be intolerable.  they perceive me to be a threat to their leadership, and begin to find any means or method necessary to "get rid of me".

i have seen this happen enough times to know the signs.

usually this is done by questioning specific areas, leaving out specific words of a sentence (such as you've done by ignoring the word "approximate") and then re-stating what was actually said in a negative or derogatory fashion.  when a reply is received, by virtue of it having to include either "wtf??" or "actually i said xyz" it is then possible to ignore that response, deliberately misinterpet that response, or otherwise use it to further make them "look good" by comparison.

the problem with this approach is that it is _very_ detrimental.  the additional problem is that, in every single case, the project leader who initiates the attack states that they are "in the right", and cannot, in any way shape or form, see that there is a problem, and, any attempts by me to point this out are treated with the same techniques [scorn, ridicule, misinterpretation - bullying basically].

now, in the context of two projects which are so similar, but more importantly are both software (libre) projects as well as being open projects, to even to be _having_ this discussion - in public - is... how can i put it best.  i can't think how to put it.... i'll have to leave it at that.

now.  james.  i've been around long enough to recognise the signs, of what you're doing. even just those two initial questions were enough to raise the alarm bells.  so i know what you're doing, even if you cannot see it (or, if you can, cannot admit it publicly).  and i sincerely and genuinely apologise for having triggered whatever it was that made you feel it was necessary to go down the route that you have chosen.

i trust that you will not feel it necessary to continue down the path that you have chosen, for the sake of the project that you are working on.

lkcl
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Prometheus said:


lkcl said:


ahh, thank you for the correction.  i shall go beat my friend about the head (the one who reads the openpandora forums)


Ouch!

Anyway, do pardon me - I thought that you were the same lkcl who has posted over there.



yes i am - but i drop in on specific topics rather than read the entire forum: i cover too many areas of technology (dozens of different forums) to be able to do that, and it has (as you can see) the minor disadvantage of occasionally receiving garbled reports 2nd hand from people who _do_ read the entire forums.  so, thank you for the correction: it's greatly appreciated.  ho hum, now i can't remember how many other places i've mentioned the wrong bloody story, oops.  i'm sure i'll be reminded of them in the future

lkcl
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:15 pm

John Beetem said:


Neil said:


lkcl's post is classic passive-aggressive.


I would prefer to think that lkcl's post is a literary reference to Monty Python's "Politicians — an Apology":


… IT WAS NEVER OUR INTENTION TO IMPLY THAT POLITICIANS ARE WEAK-KNEED, POLITICAL TIME-SERVERS WHO ARE CONCERNED MORE WITH THEIR PERSONAL VENDETTAS AND PRIVATE POWER STRUGGLES THAN THE PROBLEMS OF GOVERNMENT, NOR TO SUGGEST AT ANY POINT…



i wish, john!  if only it were intended to be a deliberate attempt to make fun of james, in such a satyrical and comical way, such that everyone could laugh


Unfortunately, lckl's post also made me think of another Monty Python quote:


Well I'm afraid I shan't be coming on your expedition sir, as I've absolutely no confidence in anyone involved in it.


An open source project depends on having a helpful community. Sprinkling petrol around and tossing in a lit match is not a good way to build a helpful community.


john - i've been around a number of free software projects.  i recognise the warning signs of someone who initiates an attack, even if you don't.  james doesn't realise it, but he is being a bully.  that is why i instantly responded with an apology.  i felt it was more important to respond with an apology than it was to immediately answer the questions.

unfortunately, james took my response to be a sign of weakness, and continued the attack.  the thing is that the questions he asks, and the responses, look so very very reasonable, it's very difficult to spot that there is anything wrong unless you know what to look for.

and, because i have been subjected to bullying numerous times, dating back over 28 years, i know what to look for.

now, if i was a marketing person, or if i was a "normal" person, there would be no way in hell that i would enter into this discussion.  it would be so incredibly damaging (see your sentence below, as well as other responses to my apology) and such negative PR that it would be hypothetically completely against the hypothetical interests of the hypothetical Ltd Company for which i hypothetically worked [apologies for having to put that word in so many times, but i've had to go into "defensive writing" mode].

however, this isn't a Ltd Company, it's a Community Interest Company i'm *associated* with.  i'm a Software (Libre) Developer.  i'm an engineer, and i have all the classic symptoms of asperger's.

the reason i mention that context is to emphasise that doing stupid things like get into ego-fights is something that i just... it's just such a waste!  within that context, it's *more* important to me to point out things that are detrimental to Software (Libre) than it is to "make money".

and james' apparently-innocent questions were designed to do harm to Software (Libre) and Open Hardware Projects such as those being initiated by the raspberrypi foundation and the rhombus-tech.net Community Interest Company.

thus, i must - _must_ apologise to everyone reading this, and to you, and to james, for triggering whatever stress it was that caused this discussion to begin.  we are not perfect.  in a proprietary company context, such discussions (arguments) would occur - but you would never see them.  to everyone reading this, now and in the future: please do bear that closed vs open difference in mind before passing judgement.


Too bad, it seemed like a promising little gadget.


i apologise - to you, john - for triggering whatever it was that made you feel it was necessary to say this.

Tomo2k
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:43 pm

lkcl said:


i have an ability to read beyond the words, into the intent behind the words.  i have encountered a number of project leaders involved in free software and open projects who find my "presence" to be intolerable.  they perceive me to be a threat to their leadership, and begin to find any means or method necessary to "get rid of me".
i have seen this happen enough times to know the signs.



I suspect that this may have more to do with the way you tend to put things than the projects themselves. Unfortunately I found your posts harsh, abrasive and at times unnecessarily argumentative.

I note that you did say you have tendencies towards Asperger's, if not Asperger's itself.

As you know that this occurs, perhaps it would be advantageous to be more careful when communicating on forums, and re-read your posts a few times before posting them to see if they could be misconstrued.

I wish you well in your project, and hope to see these become available in the fullness of time.

I would also suggest to the moderators that this thread ought to be closed, as it has already descended into some quite nasty comments in both directions.

The last post should include a link to your project so interested parties can easily find it and follow the progress.

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abishur
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Re: if its good copy it?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:56 pm

I tend to agree Tomo.

Here's a link to Rhombus-Tech's website.  If the creator of the project wishes set up a forum in which to discuss their project well it's their site, they can do what they want.

As for what Ikcl said, well frankly I think it was a bit of a needless drama which seems to have stemmed from him putting out a bunch of made up numbers then getting upset when Jamesh called him out on the made up numbers (which Ikcl defended while at the same time admitting they were fake?).  Then proceeded to do a bunch of faux-apologies and play the victim.  Having read the posts I can quiet assure you that Jamesh wasn't being a bully and you're making WAY too much out of this

I think it's great if Rhombus follows the r-pi's example, and I know the foundation has repeatedly stated they'll be happy if lots of other companies or what have you get into the ultra low cost market.  So good luck to them, and I hope they don't fall the way of vapor-ware

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