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Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 am
by scottsri58
I don't know if this question is allowed here.

I'm working on a project using the Pi Zero W. This could lead to my project being available for commercial sales.
Is this allowed? Would I be able to use the Pi and in a commercial product?

Thanks for any advice.

Scott

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:25 pm
by scotty101
The Pi Zero will likely never be available in large enough quantities for you to base a product around it. You can only buy 1 Pi Zero at a time.

The Pi CM (Compute Module) and the CM3 are specifically designed for integration in to commercial products.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:31 pm
by fruitoftheloom
scottsri58 wrote:I don't know if this question is allowed here.

I'm working on a project using the Pi Zero W. This could lead to my project being available for commercial sales.
Is this allowed? Would I be able to use the Pi and in a commercial product?

Thanks for any advice.

Scott
Apart from availability of the RPi Zero models, the form factor is not set so future models could be differing footprint, therefore as above stated design you product around a Compute Module.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:42 pm
by scottsri58
Thanks

Is the 1 limit just a temp thing? Will quantities be available?
I found a company selling qualities of 30. But in kit form.

I like the Pi Zero W because of its compact size and the Wifi/Bluetooth.

Scott

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:45 pm
by DougieLawson
scottsri58 wrote:Thanks

Is the 1 limit just a temp thing? Will quantities be available?
I found a company selling qualities of 30. But in kit form.

I like the Pi Zero W because of its compact size and the Wifi/Bluetooth.

Scott
The limit of one-per-order has been in-place for retail customers since the original PiZ was introduced. The initial batch of PiZWs has just been sold-out so it'll be a while before we know.

The CM, CM3 and CM3L are the perfect raspberries for a commercial product, but they need to you make a carrier board for the SODIMM shaped package.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:04 pm
by 321
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/wan ... their-own/
https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-76955

I dont know if the service is extended to the piZero's, but might be worth getting in touch with element14/farnell/rs components to see if the quantities you require over the timescales/product life cycle is possible.

From memory I think there is less profit on a pizero compared to the other's, which might be a reason for the current purchasing limit seen.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:07 pm
by DirkS
321 wrote:I dont know if the service is extended to the piZero's,
No, it isn't. They're not involved in the Zero production.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:11 pm
by fruitoftheloom
DirkS wrote:
321 wrote:I dont know if the service is extended to the piZero's,
No, it isn't. They're not involved in the Zero production.
+1

Raspberry Pi Trading are solely responsible for the Zero's and contract Sony to manufacture..

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:23 pm
by jamesh
scottsri58 wrote:Thanks

Is the 1 limit just a temp thing? Will quantities be available?
I found a company selling qualities of 30. But in kit form.

I like the Pi Zero W because of its compact size and the Wifi/Bluetooth.

Scott
It is hoped that the W will be more available than the plain Zero due to its higher price which in turn means it is more cost effective to manufacture in large quantities. However, right now, they are all sold out. It will be a while before the market stabilises.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:47 pm
by mikerr
Pimoroni still have Pi Zero W in stock : https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-w
but +1 to using a compute module if its for a commercial product.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:59 pm
by PiGraham
CM3 is a good option and the "proper way to do it" for all the reasons given, but it lacks WiFi and BT and requires a more complex baseboard with high bandwidth signals (transmission lines). Pi0W will be a significantly better value proposition for some applications, if supply eases.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:03 pm
by PiGraham
Mind you, CM1 is out of stock at Farnell until May.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:06 pm
by mikronauts
I both agree and disagree.

For products that need the additional I/O, and don't need the connectors, and have sufficient margins to absorb the CM's significantly higher cost, yes, the CM's are perfect.

For products that need the connectors, on-board WiFi&BT, lower cost, and don't need the additional I/O, Pi 0 and 0W would be a much better choice, if available. The upcoming 3A+ will also be a great choice, and the existing 3B is a great choice.
DougieLawson wrote: The CM, CM3 and CM3L are the perfect raspberries for a commercial product, but they need to you make a carrier board for the SODIMM shaped package.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:29 pm
by W. H. Heydt
scottsri58 wrote: Is the 1 limit just a temp thing? Will quantities be available?
Depends on how you define "temporary". It has been consistently said that the "one per order" limit on Pi Zeros will be relaxed as soon as supply catches up with demand. However, the order limit has been in place for 15 months and 500K units. The same statement has been made with regard to the Pi Zero W. The initial batch at launch of the Pi Zero W was 80K and production was stated to be 25K per week.

So...your mathematical market analysis challenge is to determine how long it will take for the market to be sufficiently saturated that relaxing the "one per order" limit will NOT mean that supplies instantly sell out whenever some are available. Include in your calculations that yours is not the only company that would like to buy them in bulk to embed in one or more products.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:36 pm
by mikerr
W. H. Heydt wrote: Depends on how you define "temporary". It has been consistently said that the "one per order" limit on Pi Zeros will be relaxed as soon as supply catches up with demand. However, the order limit has been in place for 15 months and 500K units. The same statement has been made with regard to the Pi Zero W.
Well AIUI the situation has changed with the higher margin on the Pi Zero W making it sustainable to produce more.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:50 pm
by hippy
The $5 increase in price should allow Sony to produce more and give them an incentive to do that. They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W which comes off the production line where they were earning virtually bugger-all per Pi Zero.

A million Pi Zero W's a year could be near $5 million a year profit for them instead of getting little more than thanks for producing Zeroes.

If it were $5 per Zero W it might make the Zero W the most profitable Pi product they produce. It should certainly be enough to influence expanding production capacity to produce them.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:56 pm
by DirkS
hippy wrote:The $5 increase in price should allow Sony to produce more and give them an incentive to do that. They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W which comes off the production line where they were earning virtually bugger-all per Pi Zero.

A million Pi Zero W's a year could be near $5 million a year profit for them instead of getting little more than thanks for producing Zeroes.

If it were $5 per Zero W it might make the Zero W the most profitable Pi product they produce. It should certainly be enough to influence expanding production capacity to produce them.
So you think Sony is making $5 PROFIT on every Pi0W?
I seriously doubt that (understatement alert!)

In other words: what a load of b******s

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:09 pm
by W. H. Heydt
DirkS wrote:
hippy wrote:The $5 increase in price should allow Sony to produce more and give them an incentive to do that. They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W which comes off the production line where they were earning virtually bugger-all per Pi Zero.

A million Pi Zero W's a year could be near $5 million a year profit for them instead of getting little more than thanks for producing Zeroes.

If it were $5 per Zero W it might make the Zero W the most profitable Pi product they produce. It should certainly be enough to influence expanding production capacity to produce them.
So you think Sony is making $5 PROFIT on every Pi0W?
I seriously doubt that (understatement alert!)

In other words: what a load of b******s
Without the strong language, I agree with you. First, I doubt the total margin is as high as $5. There are additional costs--parts, licensing the antenna design, just to name two. It is probable that Sony does have a higher margin on the Pi0W than on the Pi0, but it's also probable that the retail sellers are also getting a higher margin, too. I would hope that some of the extra money goes to the RPT as well. Bear in mind that the cost of designing the board and doing compliance testing have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is going to be part of the RPTs share of the margin.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:15 pm
by hippy
DirkS wrote:So you think Sony is making $5 PROFIT on every Pi0W?
No; that's why I clearly and deliberately said "They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W".

It likely costs the same to manufacture Zero W PBCB's as it does Zero PCB's, likely costs the same to assemble them on the production line; any difference would probably be in the order of cents.

The price has gone up $5, subtract the cost of the additional components and licenses, and that's the margin left to spread around.

Exactly what that margin is and how that margin will be divvied-up between Sony, RPT and retailers I don't know and I doubt anyone is ever going to tell us.

But what makes you think the lion's share won't go to Sony and won't be closer to the $5 end than $0 ?
DirkS wrote:In other words: what a load of b******s
That's fair enough. I'd be interested in hearing what your assessment of the margin on the Zero W would be, how you think that would be divvied-up, how much you think Sony would be earning from each Zero W, and where the left-over margin would be going.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:19 pm
by mikronauts
I'd suspect the total margin would be somewhere between $3-$4, based on:

- they can sell the 0 for $5, the W for $10
- the BCM wifi/bt chip is ~$1 according to an earlier post
- NRE/certifications will have negligible per unit cost, assuming they sell a lot of units

Example: (numbers picked out of the air)

Let's say the fully burdened NRE+certification cost $0.5M
Let's say over the year they can sell 2M W's

Then in the first year, $0.25 per W would pay off the NRE+certifications entirely
W. H. Heydt wrote:First, I doubt the total margin is as high as $5. There are additional costs--parts, licensing the antenna design, just to name two. It is probable that Sony does have a higher margin on the Pi0W than on the Pi0, but it's also probable that the retail sellers are also getting a higher margin, too. I would hope that some of the extra money goes to the RPT as well. Bear in mind that the cost of designing the board and doing compliance testing have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is going to be part of the RPTs share of the margin.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:24 pm
by DirkS
hippy wrote:No; that's why I clearly and deliberately said "They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W".
You also said:
A million Pi Zero W's a year could be near $5 million a year profit for them
With 'them' being Sony (not the total increase in potential profits)

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:25 pm
by W. H. Heydt
mikronauts wrote: Example: (numbers picked out of the air)

Let's say the fully burdened NRE+certification cost $0.5M
Let's say over the year they can sell 2M W's
Announced production rate (which, of course, may change) is 25K/week. that would be 1.25M/year. If you mean what's left of *this* year, then more like 1M units.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:52 pm
by hippy
DirkS wrote:
hippy wrote:No; that's why I clearly and deliberately said "They now have the potential to earn up to somewhere under $5 for every Pi Zero W".
You also said:
A million Pi Zero W's a year could be near $5 million a year profit for them
With 'them' being Sony (not the total increase in potential profits)
Yes; "them" meant Sony. And "could be near" means exactly what it says. How near depends on how the profit is divvied-up.

If we assume it's $1.50 all-in for extra parts; that's about $3.50 margin.

So to improve what I had said; "If it has a $3.50 margin, and all that margin went to Sony, and Sony produced a million a year, it would generate $3.5 million a year profit for Sony".

Maybe it's more, perhaps less, but I don't believe I was far enough out for it to be fairly criticised as "b******s", and, whatever it actually is, it looks to be a whole lot more profit than Sony are currently making on Zeroes.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:58 pm
by DirkS
hippy wrote:Maybe it's more, perhaps less, but I don't believe I was far enough out for it to be fairly criticised as "b******s", and, whatever it actually is, it looks to be a whole lot more profit than Sony are currently making on Zeroes.
You're still assuming that any increase in profit is going to Sony. No idea why you're thinking that's the case...

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion as we're way too far off topic by now.

Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:21 pm
by mikronauts
To badly mis-quote a movie...

Build them and they will buy!

The NRE should be recovered over the first 2-3 years of production. My very off-the-cuff calculation was to show that the NRE/certification cost per unit is not that high, assuming a sufficient number of units can be produced and sold.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Announced production rate (which, of course, may change) is 25K/week. that would be 1.25M/year. If you mean what's left of *this* year, then more like 1M units.