RareHare
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:39 pm

Just to be clear, I am not asking the RPF/T to ramp-up production of the Pi Zero. I am merely saying that, given the number of people who are asking about capacity, it would be helpful if an official representative of RPF would put a 2-3 line paragraph on the official Pi Zero/W pages that sets customers expectations.

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bensimmo
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:40 pm

I don't know why this is still being debated, unless some people don't see between the lines or skim over to fast, go back to
viewtopic.php?p=1126736#p1126736

The nice chap below is someone who knows, someone who in one short line in another post clarified the situation, it was subtle though. Well clearer than some of the other posts ;-)

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:41 pm

RareHare,
I thought you were going to say that..., and you get the idea.
If you know the lay of the land so well, why are you asking these things here?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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CarlRJ
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:51 pm

RareHare wrote:The point is that, any time spent, even if it is a few hours, that is time wasted unnecessarily. Spread this across tens of thousands of people/entities who follow the same path, and you get the idea.
Googling for "raspberry pi zero large quantity" will get you the answer ("no, there's no way to buy the Zero in bulk") in a minute or two of reading. If you read slowly enough that it takes you "a few hours" to get that information, you have my apologies. Would it be nice if the Foundation put up a page saying, "it is highly unlikely that the Pi Zero will be available for purchase any time soon in any quantity greater than 1-per-person"? Sure, it'd be nice. In fact, I'd like to see them do so (among other reasons, because then there'd be an obvious, quick, and definitive place to refer people who ask this question). But it's not like it's some sort of outrageous moral failing that it takes a minute or two of googling to reach the correct conclusion, rather than having it up-front in bold print.

A lot of folks like yourself have gotten the mistaken impression that the RPF (Raspberry Pi Foundation, the non-profit organization) and RPT (Raspberry Pi Trading, their commercial side) are like every other for-profit computer company and can therefore be expected to behave just like other computer companies. They're not. The Foundation exists to promote education and computer literacy. The Pi is a computer designed specifically to meet that goal. RPT exists to make some money from commercial sales of the Pi, for the purpose of funding the Foundation. This symbiosis is working precisely as intended. Folks coming by arguing that X or Y must be added to the Pi to gain marketshare or match the competition, or that X or Y must be done to make higher profit... are missing the point. Those are not the direct goals of the Foundation. Education is.

The Foundation chooses not to discuss specific details of their business decisions, and that's their choice to make. The indications are that the Zero does make a profit, but that the profit margin was cut extremely thin (along with component choice and assembly procedures) in order to hit the astonishingly low price point. As such, the Zero gets lowest priority for production (as other have said, if you want the Zero that much, try offering the Foundation $10 or $12 a piece for quantity 10,000 - perhaps they'll take you up on it). The goal of the Zero was to see if they could build a computer that can retail for $5. The answer is yes, they can, but just barely. It _appears_ that the Zero W has more profit margin built in (again, we're guessing), so it's possible that we'll see wider availability of the Zero W, once production catches up to demand.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:10 pm

CarlRJ wrote:Googling for "raspberry pi zero large quantity" will get you the answer ("no, there's no way to buy the Zero in bulk") in a minute or two of reading. If you read slowly enough that it takes you "a few hours" to get that information, you have my apologies.
Yes, I, like the 1000's of other people who hunt for that information, suffer from slow-reading.
Would it be nice if the Foundation put up a page saying, "it is highly unlikely that the Pi Zero will be available for purchase any time soon in any quantity greater than 1-per-person"? Sure, it'd be nice. In fact, I'd like to see them do so (among other reasons, because then there'd be an obvious, quick, and definitive place to refer people who ask this question).
Then we are in agreement.
But it's not like it's some sort of outrageous moral failing that it takes a minute or two of googling to reach the correct conclusion, rather than having it up-front in bold print.
Did not say it was.
A lot of folks like yourself have gotten the mistaken impression that the RPF (Raspberry Pi Foundation, the non-profit organization) and RPT (Raspberry Pi Trading, their commercial side) are like every other for-profit computer company and can therefore be expected to behave just like other computer companies.
Actually, I did not. That is the point. I, like 1000's of other people would rather not make presumptions, or speculate based upon the speculations of the speculations of others that we found via Google. The most logical place to get this information is directly from the Foundation.
They're not. The Foundation exists to promote education and computer literacy. The Pi is a computer designed specifically to meet that goal. RPT exists to make some money from commercial sales of the Pi, for the purpose of funding the Foundation. This symbiosis is working precisely as intended. Folks coming by arguing that X or Y must be added to the Pi to gain marketshare or match the competition, or that X or Y must be done to make higher profit... are missing the point. Those are not the direct goals of the Foundation. Education is.
Never asked for that.
The Foundation chooses not to discuss specific details of their business decisions, and that's their choice to make. The indications are that the Zero does make a profit, but that the profit margin was cut extremely thin (along with component choice and assembly procedures) in order to hit the astonishingly low price point. As such, the Zero gets lowest priority for production (as other have said, if you want the Zero that much, try offering the Foundation $10 or $12 a piece for quantity 10,000 - perhaps they'll take you up on it). The goal of the Zero was to see if they could build a computer that can retail for $5. The answer is yes, they can, but just barely. It _appears_ that the Zero W has more profit margin built in (again, we're guessing), so it's possible that we'll see wider availability of the Zero W, once production catches up to demand.
And...the Foundation could state that.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:12 pm

I don't know how clear you want things to be.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

RareHare
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:31 pm

...clear enough that people do not have to go rummaging through old posts on various websites to read things by third-party individuals to arrive a conclusion that might or might not be true. I have seen several postings by using Google. I do not know which of them is true. Whichever one of them is true, the Foundation could pick that one, and put it on their website. Or, if none of them is true, then the Foundation could make their own 2-3 line statement.

Whichever....I really don't care, as long as it is something that comes from the Foundation, and not speculation.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:43 pm

I am no longer sure what or who you are arguing for. You obviously know the score.

The "truth" is there when you go to a distributor and say "I want N number of X product, here is the cash" and they say "Sorry, no can do"

Things might change a bit if N is a big number and there is a lot of cash on the table. But given the charter of the Pi Foundation I would not count on it.

Google and whoever has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:51 pm

Heater wrote: Things might change a bit if N is a big number and there is a lot of cash on the table. But given the charter of the Pi Foundation I would not count on it..
Notice the word might in what you wrote. That's the problem. The Foundation, in 3-5 line paragraph, has the ability to eliminates all the might's, perhap's, maybe's, surely's, possibly's, could-be's, a-friend-told-me's, a-guy-named-Heater-in-RPi-forum-said's, lol etc.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:58 pm

RareHare wrote:Whichever....I really don't care, as long as it is something that comes from the Foundation, and not speculation.
So, why are you arguing here, on a volunteer support forum? Go talk to RPT directly. Tell them what you want and ask for a price. Then you will have a definitive answer -- probably quicker than spending time here.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:07 pm

davidcoton wrote:
RareHare wrote:Whichever....I really don't care, as long as it is something that comes from the Foundation, and not speculation.
So, why are you arguing here, on a volunteer support forum? Go talk to RPT directly. Tell them what you want and ask for a price. Then you will have a definitive answer -- probably quicker than spending time here.
Though probably not on the weekend while they're home enjoying their time away from the office....and the Forums.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:33 pm

davidcoton wrote:So, why are you arguing here, on a volunteer support forum? Go talk to RPT directly. Tell them what you want and ask for a price. Then you will have a definitive answer -- probably quicker than spending time here.
Because this is the locus of the conversation, and I am clearly not the only one who has an interest in the matter.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 pm

RareHare wrote: Because this is the locus of the conversation, and I am clearly not the only one who has an interest in the matter.
The conversation is here because you put it here. You have had the best answers you will get from several long-time contributors, who have picked up the official information that has been given, and interpreted the other clues. I doubt you will get an official answer this way. Just don't moan that all you are getting is unofficial. That's one way RPF/T keep the Pi (all models) cheap for you -- by letting the community take care of the problems. If the information you are getting is inadequate, and you are not prepared to approach RPT directly, then the Pi is not for you -- because this is how it works.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:57 pm

Thanks for the unofficial statement.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:06 am

Hmm, thisx thread is going off the rtails a bit.

Here's a non-official statement for you, but before you dismiss it out of hand, read my sig line.

There is no sign of the Zero coming off one per customer in the near future.

The higher price of the ZeroW means that it is more likely that it will come off the one per customer limit than the Zero, but at the moment, there is no sign of it coming off one per customer.

There are many reasons that the situation is as it is, some alluded to above, but hey, I'm under NDA as well! Enough to say that the RFP/T is not just sitting back and watching things - they take a very active part and are not ignoring the market.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:34 am

Western Digital have a supply of Pi Zero as part of their Node Zero product:

https://www.wdc.com/products/wdlabs/wd- ... -zero.html

Just sayin' ... :)
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Io510k
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:59 pm

jamesh wrote:Hmm, thisx thread is going off the rtails a bit.

Here's a non-official statement for you, but before you dismiss it out of hand, read my sig line.

There is no sign of the Zero coming off one per customer in the near future.

The higher price of the ZeroW means that it is more likely that it will come off the one per customer limit than the Zero, but at the moment, there is no sign of it coming off one per customer.

There are many reasons that the situation is as it is, some alluded to above, but hey, I'm under NDA as well! Enough to say that the RFP/T is not just sitting back and watching things - they take a very active part and are not ignoring the market.
Well, I feel like ... after reading through this thread. How about organizing around finding a solution to the issues stated in the thread and working with RPF to get a commercial volume Pi0w on the RoadMap? The form factor is great, community is great, I would easily pay $15-20 per unit (RPF gets a big discount to meet their mission), there appears to be demand for commercial stabilization, it is a natural progression in productization to pick a spot to jump off the development go-a-round.

With that in mind how do we move forward in such an effort? BTW - my interest, not to fan any flames, is in moving to use in cleared medical devices, so, stable and predictable is important as is SELinux.

Anyone want to join forces on such an effort?

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:56 am

Io510k wrote:
jamesh wrote:Hmm, thisx thread is going off the rtails a bit.

Here's a non-official statement for you, but before you dismiss it out of hand, read my sig line.

There is no sign of the Zero coming off one per customer in the near future.

The higher price of the ZeroW means that it is more likely that it will come off the one per customer limit than the Zero, but at the moment, there is no sign of it coming off one per customer.

There are many reasons that the situation is as it is, some alluded to above, but hey, I'm under NDA as well! Enough to say that the RFP/T is not just sitting back and watching things - they take a very active part and are not ignoring the market.
Well, I feel like ... after reading through this thread. How about organizing around finding a solution to the issues stated in the thread and working with RPF to get a commercial volume Pi0w on the RoadMap? The form factor is great, community is great, I would easily pay $15-20 per unit (RPF gets a big discount to meet their mission), there appears to be demand for commercial stabilization, it is a natural progression in productization to pick a spot to jump off the development go-a-round.

With that in mind how do we move forward in such an effort? BTW - my interest, not to fan any flames, is in moving to use in cleared medical devices, so, stable and predictable is important as is SELinux.

Anyone want to join forces on such an effort?
I'm afraid that my reaction is the same one that has been atrributed to Broadcom every time someone comes along and wants to know how to buy BCM283x SoCs.... How many hundred thousand per quarter are you willing to commit to?

As for Pis in medical equipment...I would be very hesitant. I've been hooked up to medical equipment under circumstances that it was--if I wasn't aware that it was keeping me alive at that precise moment--at least monitoring my status so that if anything went wrong--and it did--it would alert fully competent medical personnel to act promptly and effectively. (Having ones breathing stop suddenly to the point that a blood oxygen monitor sets off an alarm is not something I would wish on anyone here.)

RareHare
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:37 am

Io510k wrote: wrote: With that in mind how do we move forward in such an effort? BTW - my interest, not to fan any flames, is in moving to use in cleared medical devices, so, stable and predictable is important as is SELinux.

Anyone want to join forces on such an effort?
There are ethical issues of any organization, commercial or not, for-profit or not, proclaiming that a device is for sale for X amount of U.S. dollars, while not revealing, simultaneously, that a de facto "limit 1 per customer" exists. It would literally take less than 10 minutes for the RPI Foundation to settle, once and for all, any confusion over availability, by placing, plainly and prominently on their website, their official position. This would have saved many people much time.

Stop and think for a second, if you will, how much time has been wasted by various engineers speculating online in various fora on the WWW about availability, as the RPi Foundation abstained from providing an official clarification.

The fact that the RPI Foundation has not made an official statement is more telling than anything else.

It would not be unreasonable to conclude that the abstention is deliberate. Perhaps the RPI Foundation would like the public-relations benefit of claiming availability of a $5 computer (very exciting), without suffering the public-relations detriment that it is not available in quantity (excitement-killing). IMO, this is no different than claiming that you have created a vehicle that get has fuel-efficiency of 100 mpg, while abstaining from revealing that the gas tank only holds 1.5 gallons. In that case, one would be deliberately withholding information that most customers would want to know (obviously) Furthermore, it would be disingenuous to feign ignorance that said customers would want to know.
Last edited by RareHare on Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:52 am

I have not bothered to check for a few weeks.
Do all stockist have Pi Zero's in stock?
Tuesday seems to be the day to order from Pihut/Pimoroni.

If all you guys would stop buying the bloody things then suppliers can keep stock and consider selling maybe two at a time :lol:

Would I use the Zero for commercial use?
If I cannot get Zero's in qty then why use them, use the designed for commercial use Compute Modules.
The higher price of the ZeroW means that it is more likely that it will come off the one per customer limit than the Zero,
That's sounds like good news to me.

The prices are ridiculously low anyway, doubling the price won't help as they are making them as fast as they can.
I just find even the low shipping charge for send one Zero to the other side of the World doubles the price.
Two at a time would be bearable. Buy can they make twice as many?

Considering the Zero W has about twice the production rate as the Zero, then we have seen the Zero volume triple with no ie "ZERO" sign of slowing demand. How long do they sit on the shelf at stockist now? Gone from 1hr to one day?

Use the other Pi's like CM's. Keep your money grubbing hands off my Zero's :lol:
Leave the Zero's to those who want to have fun with them, the Tinkerers, hackers, DIYers, Makers, we are in it for the fun not the money.
Last edited by Gavinmc42 on Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:55 am

RareHare wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: With that in mind how do we move forward in such an effort? BTW - my interest, not to fan any flames, is in moving to use in cleared medical devices, so, stable and predictable is important as is SELinux.
The above attribution is incorrect.

Anyone want to join forces on such an effort?
The above attribution is incorrect.
There are ethical issues of any organization, commercial or not, for-profit or not, proclaiming that a device is for sale for X amount of U.S. dollars, while not revealing, simultaneously, that a de facto "limit 1 per customer" exists. It would literally take less than 10 minutes for the RPI Foundation to settle, once and for all, any confusion over availability, by placing, plainly and prominently on their website, their official position. This would have saved many people much time.
No one has ever concealed the "one per order" limit. Also note that the Pi0 wasn't the first Pi to have the restriction placed on it. It was done with launch of the very first Pi on the market. Now, granted, within about 6 to 8 months the restriction on the original Pi was lifted, but it was there for a while. So far as I know, the RPT would dearly *love* to remove the order limit, but the economics and demand of Pi0 and Pi0W production dictate otherwise. There is NO ethical issue here. The RPT has be aboveboard in the matter, as have the retailers. Also, there is confusion only if one hasn't been paying attention or is unwilling to do a little bit if basic research.

Also note that, relatively early on, when Pi0s were very hard to get and there were only 4 retailers carrying them, the distribution pattern was published in this very forum, officially, by a highly placed person in the RPF organization.
Stop and think for a second, if you will, how much time has been wasted by various engineers speculating online in various fora on the WWW about availability, as the RPi Foundation abstained from providing an official clarification.
Engineers holding speculative bull sessions is a time honored tradition. It would probably be hard to find engineers who wouldn't gleefully engage in the practice.
The fact that the RPI Foundation has not made an official statement is more telling than anything else.
Okay... You've made a claim. What do you think a lack of comment from the RPF/RPT is "telling"? What is your evidence for whatever theory about "what they're up to" do you have? Need I point out the traditional "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?
It would not be unreasonable to conclude that the abstention is deliberate. Perhaps the RPI Foundation would like the public-relations benefit of claiming availability of a $5 computer (very exciting), without suffering the public-relations detriment that it is not available in quantity (excitement-killing). IMO, this is no different than claiming that you have created a vehicle that get has fuel-efficiency of 100 mpg, while abstaining from revealing that the gas tank only holds 1.5 gallons. In that case, one would be deliberately withholding information that most customers would want to know (obviously) Furthermore, it would be disingenuous to feign ignorance that said customers would want to know.
I don't think your analogy holds. The basic supply and demand issues are pretty well known and have improved markedly in the last year. While Pi0 orders are still limited to one per, at least if your order at some random point in time there is a pretty goood chance that you can actually order one. That has not always been the case. There was a period when new shipments sold out within minutes--very few minutes at times. A check right now shows that 6 out of 8 Pi0 retailers have them in stock. No one is concealing anything.

*Every* time that someone comes to the Forums and asks about ordering multiple Pi0s, they are *immediately* told that they can't do that at present and no one knows when the situation will change. There is nothing disingenuous here. Nothing is being concealed. I think you're creating a conspiracy theory when plain economics and the comments of those who have been following availability for nearly 18 months is sufficient to understand the situation.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:00 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:I have not bothered to check for a few weeks.
Do all stockist have Pi Zero's in stock?
Tuesday seems to be the day to order from Pihut/Pimoroni.
The web site thepilocator.com is your friend.
If all you guys would stop buying the bloody things then suppliers can keep stock and consider selling maybe two at a time :lol:
You first.... Actually, I haven't bought a Pi0 in 3 or 4 months, and it's been about a month since I last bought a Pi0W. At this point, I'm not buying either of them unless I'm going to order other things from that supplier as well. This is so I don't get eaten alive on the shipping costs.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:19 am

You first.... Actually, I haven't bought a Pi0 in 3 or 4 months, and it's been about a month since I last bought a Pi0W.
Ditto for me too. Have not got any for weeks/months.

Still trying to get me head around how to use the little Bug....
Want to stick them in stuff but not use up the few I have.
Plus they are NOT the easiest Pi's to use.
Thinking I really might need to have a console Uart for emergency fixing.
I'm not buying either of them unless I'm going to order other things from that supplier as well. This is so I don't get eaten alive on the shipping costs.

Yep shipping bites, I can buy a Cluster hat but only one Pi, still need more Pi's to fill it.

Ha ha, shipping is so expensive, 4 pounds airmail from UK, for 4 pound PC. Are we getting cynical?

So W.H. if we are not buying, who is?
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Io510k
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:43 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: I'm afraid that my reaction is the same one that has been atrributed to Broadcom every time someone comes along and wants to know how to buy BCM283x SoCs.... How many hundred thousand per quarter are you willing to commit to?

As for Pis in medical equipment...I would be very hesitant. I've been hooked up to medical equipment under circumstances that it was--if I wasn't aware that it was keeping me alive at that precise moment--at least monitoring my status so that if anything went wrong--and it did--it would alert fully competent medical personnel to act promptly and effectively. (Having ones breathing stop suddenly to the point that a blood oxygen monitor sets off an alarm is not something I would wish on anyone here.)
So, you're in, yes? You want to help achieve the goal of commercial Pi0w!

I am stating that my volume, along with others, is sufficient to justify tooling; but, this is a market assessment effort that needs to be executed - happy to have your help.

All chip-sets were experimental before they weren't - double-dog-dare you to look at vulnerabilities of current implanted pace-makers (still being sold). This is not a justification not to pursue a commercial build which will anticipate most fit-for-purpose factors or fail approval.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:58 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: *Every* time that someone comes to the Forums and asks about ordering multiple Pi0s, they are *immediately* told that they can't do that at present and no one knows when the situation will change. There is nothing disingenuous here. Nothing is being concealed. I think you're creating a conspiracy theory when plain economics and the comments of those who have been following availability for nearly 18 months is sufficient to understand the situation.
I don't care about the economics, really. It does not bother me one bit that RPi Foundation can only supply so many units. What I am saying is that, everything that you just wrote, the RPi Foundation should put prominently in the place on their site where any reason able person will look first. It is a bit bizarre, to be honest, that we even have a discussion about the absurdity of not doing so, then saying, "But if you find your way to RPi forum, and spend some time, digging around, you will discover the truth."

We are all reasonable, objective, methodical people here. No one reading this post is stupid. As engineers, we generally seek the most efficient way to accomplish a task. Therefore, objectively speaking, the most efficient solution is for the Foundation to clear state its position in 2-3 sentences. Anyone who denies that what we have now, is better, is lying to himself, others, or both, IMO.

Perhaps we should ask an objective individual in the media:

As a journalist, is it relevant you that certain boards are only available in limited quantities, and do you feel that this fact should be communicated prominently along with all other facts on the devices' official descriptions?

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