321
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:06 pm

I hope to see 5GHz in an upcoming model as someone else suggested on here, 5Ghz penetrates walls better than 2.4GHz which for IoT things would be better and ideally like some routers offer, having the option to switch off 2.4Ghz because I'm not too keen on resonating the water inside me, even at low continuous doses that cant be measured.

Heater
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Actually it's the other way around, 5Ghz penetrates walls, and bodies, better than 2.4GHz. That's how it goes with shorter wavelengths. Also the 5GHz range is less.

You should not worry about the 2.4Ghz resonating your water. The energy levels are minute and it only a tiny heating effect anyway. You are in millions of times more danger exposing your skin to the ultra-violet from the sun. Assuming you have fair skin that is.
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malvcr
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:29 pm

Whatever happens with the Raspberry Zero or Zero W about expectation and availability, they already forced the market to react, and it is very important that somebody takes so important step (thanks Foundation).

$5 it is a hard goal for anybody ... the Raspberry is the leader, but we have also the Orange, Onion, Chip. If is still so hard to go that low with current technology, something must change to break the limit as it is usual with technology.

And this is not just because of hardware. Can be a combination of facts including software and the very definition of what it is really a computer and what it can be used for.

321
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:42 pm

Actually it's the other way around, 5Ghz penetrates walls, and bodies, better than 2.4GHz. That's how it goes with shorter wavelengths. Also the 5GHz range is less.

You should not worry about the 2.4Ghz resonating your water. The energy levels are minute and it only a tiny heating effect anyway. You are in millions of times more danger exposing your skin to the ultra-violet from the sun. Assuming you have fair skin that is.
As I understand it but didnt explain well enough, 5Ghz scatters over a short distance think like a fog, hence its ability to penetrate walls better, but 2.4GHz covers a longer distance but is more directional a bit like a torch beam as another example.
Or 5GHz is a bit like light from a normal light bulb, it spreads out alot, but doesnt cover a long distance unlike a laser which is more directional and covers a longer distance for the same power.

Actually I had the wifi on my pi3 on the other night and I could feel it, not a nice experience so had to switch it off, perhaps due to years of using wifi on laptops and smartphone's I've become sensitive to it, its one of the reasons why I try to use cables everwhere now.

As to UV and skin damage, melalin the skin pigment once you have oxidised it, converts 99.9% of UV radiation into heat, so is the skin damaged, or have the dermatologists, not taken into account the skin will need more retinol binding protein (Vit A converted by zinc) and copper to replace what the melalin has used? Perhaps thats why moles are also copper coloured?

jamesh
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:49 am

321 wrote:
Actually it's the other way around, 5Ghz penetrates walls, and bodies, better than 2.4GHz. That's how it goes with shorter wavelengths. Also the 5GHz range is less.

You should not worry about the 2.4Ghz resonating your water. The energy levels are minute and it only a tiny heating effect anyway. You are in millions of times more danger exposing your skin to the ultra-violet from the sun. Assuming you have fair skin that is.
As I understand it but didnt explain well enough, 5Ghz scatters over a short distance think like a fog, hence its ability to penetrate walls better, but 2.4GHz covers a longer distance but is more directional a bit like a torch beam as another example.
Or 5GHz is a bit like light from a normal light bulb, it spreads out alot, but doesnt cover a long distance unlike a laser which is more directional and covers a longer distance for the same power.

Actually I had the wifi on my pi3 on the other night and I could feel it, not a nice experience so had to switch it off, perhaps due to years of using wifi on laptops and smartphone's I've become sensitive to it, its one of the reasons why I try to use cables everwhere now.

As to UV and skin damage, melalin the skin pigment once you have oxidised it, converts 99.9% of UV radiation into heat, so is the skin damaged, or have the dermatologists, not taken into account the skin will need more retinol binding protein (Vit A converted by zinc) and copper to replace what the melalin has used? Perhaps thats why moles are also copper coloured?
Er, no.

Use cables because they are secure and faster, not because Wifi affects you. Because it doesn't. Power levels are too low.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:55 am

malvcr wrote:Whatever happens with the Raspberry Zero or Zero W about expectation and availability, they already forced the market to react, and it is very important that somebody takes so important step (thanks Foundation).

$5 it is a hard goal for anybody ... the Raspberry is the leader, but we have also the Orange, Onion, Chip. If is still so hard to go that low with current technology, something must change to break the limit as it is usual with technology.

And this is not just because of hardware. Can be a combination of facts including software and the very definition of what it is really a computer and what it can be used for.
It's not a limit with current technology, it's a limit on how low can you actually make stuff. The SoC, the PCB, the connectors, all need to be manufactured from raw materials, all need to provide some profit for the person making them. Once you hit levels like $5 there really isn't the profit there to keep that manufacturing chain operative. So don't expect $5 computers to become the norm, it's just not possible.

Here is a thought experiment. What technological breakthroughs would be necessary to make the $5 computer common. 1). New mining method to get the raw material cheaper. 2) New refining mechanisms to get materials cheaper 3) New silicon processes to make chips cheaper 4) New plastic manufacturing methods to make connectors cheaper 5) New PCB manufacturing process to make PCB's cheaper.

Given that we have been doing all of those process for some years, some for hundreds of years, it seem unlikely that any single tech breakthrough is going to make any of them appreciably cheaper in the near future.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:37 pm

321,
As I understand it but didnt explain well enough, 5Ghz scatters over a short distance think like a fog, hence its ability to penetrate walls better, but 2.4GHz covers a longer distance but is more directional a bit like a torch beam as another example.
Or 5GHz is a bit like light from a normal light bulb, it spreads out alot, but doesnt cover a long distance unlike a laser which is more directional and covers a longer distance for the same power.
Depends what you mean by "scattering". When it comes to the propagation of radio waves, or any other wave, the main things are diffraction and reflection. All of which depends on many factors, wavelength, materials, geometry, physical size of objects etc. All of which makes it a bit hard to know where the maxima and minima for a received signal will be in any particular setup.

In general though, longer wave lengths will "bend around corners" (diffract) more so than shorter wave lengths. 5G WIFI will penetrate walls less will than 2.4G. Google around and see what others say about it. Or better still do the experiments yourself.
Actually I had the wifi on my pi3 on the other night and I could feel it, not a nice experience so had to switch it off, perhaps due to years of using wifi on laptops and smartphone's I've become sensitive to it, its one of the reasons why I try to use cables everwhere now.
I don't know what you were feeling there but I'm almost 100% sure is was not any WIFI signal. A say "almost" because there is some 0.00000001% chance that I am wrong. I would love to have you here for a day to do some double blind testing to see if you can really detect a WIFI signal. Hmm scratch that, looks like many such studies have already been done: http://www.livescience.com/52978-electr ... clear.html. Conclusion: you cannot detect WIFI waves.
As to UV and skin damage,...
I am no medical expert but there is plenty enough evidence to suggest that exposure to high levels of UV from the sun, at least for white skinned people, is a serious worry increasing the chance of melanoma a great deal.

I would worry about that far more than any effect of WIFI waves.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:31 pm

jamesh wrote:3) New silicon processes to make chips cheaper
Smaller process node (when yields are constant, or nearly so) means more chips from the same amount of bulk material, hence cheaper chips.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:49 pm

321 wrote: Actually I had the wifi on my pi3 on the other night and I could feel it, not a nice experience so had to switch it off, perhaps due to years of using wifi on laptops and smartphone's I've become sensitive to it
Do you find a tin foil hat helps ? :)

The effect is real to you, I suspect it's probably audible coil whine/hum that's affecting you. I've had to get rid of some otherwise OK PSUs due to headaches and I can hear more electronic devices when they're on than most.
Or maybe some people just "tune out" the noise better than others.
Last edited by mikerr on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wayne.dolesman
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:01 pm

mikronauts wrote:I both agree and disagree.

For products that need the additional I/O, and don't need the connectors, and have sufficient margins to absorb the CM's significantly higher cost, yes, the CM's are perfect.
There is also the form factor. I am working with the local e-nable chapter to do an electronic prosthetic hand. Cost is a factor since donations pay for each and every one. The smaller form factor means it can fit in the prosthesis. I cannot reasonably shove a CM or full size pi into a prosthesis there just isnt room for everything.

Sure I could go with an arduino mini but 1k storage means I have to add an additional eeprom (the code is more complex than just open/close) and other things. The cost would increase as a result and the mini is already twice the cost of a 0 and equal to a 0w - absent the SD card. It is probably only a couple dollars difference but I get more flexibility with the pi. And with a couple dozen sensors being processed like a neural net leveraging well developed libraries from others makes it easier to accomplish.

Depending on final app form factor can actually be something important. yeah yeah it can change, I just dont think it will change enough to make it so large that its unusable for this project.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:03 pm

mikerr wrote: Do you find a tin foil hat helps ? :)
But those just amplify government frequencies. They want you to wear one. :P

http://web.archive.org/web/201007082302 ... mi/helmet/

jamesh
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:07 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
jamesh wrote:3) New silicon processes to make chips cheaper
Smaller process node (when yields are constant, or nearly so) means more chips from the same amount of bulk material, hence cheaper chips.
Indeed, but not by a huge amount, as the process itself is more expensive (The fabs for smaller process nodes are very expensive). Of course, that will amortise out over time.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Tin foil hats don't work.

Try loosely wrapping your mobile phone in kitchen foil. You will probably find it still rings when someone calls.

Or put it in a microwave oven. Likely it still will still receive a usable signal.

A while back I put my phone into an aluminium project box and screwed the six screws of the lid down tight. That lid as a tight fitting lip all around. Damn phone still worked in there!

I had to short circuit the ever so tiny gap between lid and box with tin foils strips to finally stop those pesky waves getting in.

I have not done these tests with WIFI but I suspect they are just as hard to keep out.

A tin foil had will not do.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

321
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:55 pm

Heater wrote:321,
Depends what you mean by "scattering". When it comes to the propagation of radio waves, or any other wave, the main things are diffraction and reflection. All of which depends on many factors, wavelength, materials, geometry, physical size of objects etc. All of which makes it a bit hard to know where the maxima and minima for a received signal will be in any particular setup.
Exactly.
In general though, longer wave lengths will "bend around corners" (diffract) more so than shorter wave lengths. 5G WIFI will penetrate walls less will than 2.4G. Google around and see what others say about it. Or better still do the experiments yourself.
I don't know what you were feeling there but I'm almost 100% sure is was not any WIFI signal. A say "almost" because there is some 0.00000001% chance that I am wrong. I would love to have you here for a day to do some double blind testing to see if you can really detect a WIFI signal. Hmm scratch that, looks like many such studies have already been done: http://www.livescience.com/52978-electr ... clear.html. Conclusion: you cannot detect WIFI waves.
Even though radio waves are not a particle therefore no electron to be affected by magnetism, perhaps the mass of walls have a gravitational effect on radio waves and some other phenomena we have yet to discover because science has not discovered everything, thats for sure? We know x-rays can be detected around a black hole and tachyons are theoretically thought to escape black holes, but due to their distance in space, we cant just pop over and look for them, which restricts mankinds ability to progress on all scientific fronts just like the Higgs Boson was theorised before we could build a giant magnetic doughnut underground to test the theory decades later. Sometimes, the theories are restricted because we cant build suitable test equipment to confirm or deny the hypothosis, much like detecting the effects of wifi in the body, which is called a subclinincal diagnosis in medicine. Lets face it, who can build a machine that can spot one of my cells is acting like a radiowave absorber, in much the same way a vegetable will sacrifice itself amongst many of its type when growing in a field to absorb the pesticides from surrounding vegetables to help the surrounding vegetables to grow better? Thats something thats been known to farmers for at least 20 years since I watched it on the weekly program that later became BBC Countryfile.

The machine doesnt exist which is capable of detecting which of the cells in my body is suffering from RF frequencies, and the scientific/medical profession cant prove me wrong.

Perhaps the experiment wasnt setup properly, but heres the weird thing, a win10 tablet with wifi on, I cant detect, but the pi3 in my pi-top with wifi on, I can. Perhaps the metal casing makes a difference at channelling/blocking the signal much like the prisoners here found out? https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/01/imsi_catcher/
The pi-top is all plastic, the win10 tablet has metal casing on the underneath which could make all the difference, but maybe its the way the antenna is laid out, in some routers, its a single piece of wire, but in the Arm chip, I believe its a coiled around the cpu like an outer square?

@jamesh, as to the point of "Power levels are too low.", perhaps scientists have not taken into account the accumaltive effect, or sensitivity to the effect, because some cells in the body are generated and replaced over very short time spans (immune system cells), where as other cells elsewhere in the body are generated and replaced over longer time spans (brain & lungs). Plus the points raised above to Heater.

Just like some people become sensitive to elevated dopamine levels in the brain say from consuming caffiene but then use nicotine as nicotine besides being able to cross the blood brain barrier easily, also happens to reduce the effects of caffiene more quickly by clearing it more quickly. Yet other prescription drugs can also delay or slow up the rate of clearance of caffiene in the brain as studies have already shown. Its also interesting that nicotine protects memories, but restricts the ability to learn.

I find it interesting that receptors/certain pathways in the brain take 42 days to change, and it takes 42 days for bones to heal from a breakage. Perhaps Deep thought was onto something?
As to UV and skin damage,...
I am no medical expert but there is plenty enough evidence to suggest that exposure to high levels of UV from the sun, at least for white skinned people, is a serious worry increasing the chance of melanoma a great deal.
[Mod removed as not based in fact and pretty damn rascist]
I would worry about that far more than any effect of WIFI waves.
I wouldnt because life on this planet evolved under sunlight, not under wifi, and thats the elephant in the room. :-)
Last edited by 321 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Look up wave/particle duality, the standard model, quantum electrodynamics etc. All this stuff is pretty much a done deal - experimentation has confirmed all of it, so as theories they are pretty much as good as they get. Of course, quantum physics is so counter intuitive that a lot of people think it's bonkers*. However, EVERYTHING points to it being the 'right thing'.

What we don't have yet is a final quantum gravity model, although loop theory seem to be the best fit at the moment.


* It is bonkers, but also correct.

Oh, and if I see any more overt racism in any posts you will be out of here faster than a wifi radio wave. I will be editing it out of your previous post.
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malvcr
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:13 pm

I have been thinking ... how to reduce price, how to reduce price (to increase possibilities) ...

First came to my mind, why not to sell the memory separated from the device? This way you can put whatever quantity you need on it. But after a quick search, the cheapest memory modules are huge (in size), and the small ones cost even more than $5 .. then this medicine is worst than the disease.

There is another option. When thinking about an IOT device, the chances that you really need to connect an HDMI device to it are really small. What could be the cost to creare a real Pi Zero IOT device with "only" one micro-usb port and no video connector? I have, and I am constantly acquiring, several Orange Pi Zero computers without video ports and they are wonderful servers and IOT devices (just the form factor it is different being a square). What you need to do is to prepare your SD card outside the machine (put your IP or WIFI data) and then install inside the Zeroes, boot it and it is ready to use. However, how much to quit the HDMI could reduce the price?

Maybe the real solution is to keep the one per customer restriction for the $5 but to sell batches (let's think about 10 machines) at $7 per machine ... or less than $10 (for not to predate the $10 W price). As an example (thinking on education), if I have a 20 children class and I need to create a project for them, I could acquire two $70 batches with $25.95 (Ship price on Canakit for 10 cameras) shipping for each one ... this is $191.90 total. But if I need to have each child to purchase one, including the risk for some not to receive on time the equipment, they would pay in total: $5+$9.95 (Canakit) x 20 = $299, where the most of the money will go to the shipping company, not to the Foundation. And, the most important part is that they can be available in enough quantity for this and other types of projects.

As somebody else already indicated, the CM are the real commercial option, but (1) they are very expensive for some applications and (2) they are very big, lacking even the connection ports (and when you add what you need they even grow more). The Zero format size it is just "perfect", in fact it is the best feature this small machine has.

321
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:48 pm

jamesh wrote:Look up wave/particle duality, the standard model, quantum electrodynamics etc. All this stuff is pretty much a done deal - experimentation has confirmed all of it, so as theories they are pretty much as good as they get. Of course, quantum physics is so counter intuitive that a lot of people think it's bonkers*. However, EVERYTHING points to it being the 'right thing'.

What we don't have yet is a final quantum gravity model, although loop theory seem to be the best fit at the moment.


* It is bonkers, but also correct.

Oh, and if I see any more overt racism in any posts you will be out of here faster than a wifi radio wave. I will be editing it out of your previous post.
There was no racism in the post so report yourself for imply I am a racist. Just like you cant tell what I can feel with wifi because you are not me, how can you tell where copper from the diet is used in the body determined by the body?

Just like it financially beneficial to be first to market, being first to name call is also effective to damage peoples reputations.

The problem with scientific study is it needs funding, if you dont have the money you cant do an experiment to prove something. How convenient!

As to the wave/particle duality which underpins the whole of quantum physics, can you show me an experiment that can demonstrate the duality without using electricity in a vacuum?

Why do I say this, I'm reminded of a ballon rubbed over some cloth that when held above my head, makes my hair stand up on end. Aka Static electricity albeit not in a vacuum either.

How do you know the wavelength of the electrical supply is not causing the waves seen in things like Feynmans slit experiment, directly or indirectly?

I know when I was woken up in an earthquake, my vision went all funny, perhaps gravity and/or magnestism has more of an indirect effect then people know. Problem with earthquakes is not all survive, just like GP's mistakes are dead and buried.


I'm not closed to the idea of "duality over time", but I also cant help but think there might also be alternative reasons for seeing particle like behaviour in wave forms of energy.

Its also entirely possible that duality can exist because energy can transform a wave into a particle and vice versa, because we cant even really prove the existence of Lamarckism which is the tranfer of knowledge through cells, in much the same way we find the smell of smoke from a wood fire wafting on the breeze a comforting smell, which perhaps hints back to our caveman times.

Edit. On the point of Lamarckism, maybe just maybe, there is inherent knowledge in us because of the way we have evolved since caveman times and before, from what are seen as basic unintelligent chemicals?

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:09 pm

321 wrote:
jamesh wrote:Look up wave/particle duality, the standard model, quantum electrodynamics etc. All this stuff is pretty much a done deal - experimentation has confirmed all of it, so as theories they are pretty much as good as they get. Of course, quantum physics is so counter intuitive that a lot of people think it's bonkers*. However, EVERYTHING points to it being the 'right thing'.

What we don't have yet is a final quantum gravity model, although loop theory seem to be the best fit at the moment.


* It is bonkers, but also correct.

Oh, and if I see any more overt racism in any posts you will be out of here faster than a wifi radio wave. I will be editing it out of your previous post.
There was no racism in the post so report yourself for imply I am a racist. Just like you cant tell what I can feel with wifi because you are not me, how can you tell where copper from the diet is used in the body determined by the body?

Just like it financially beneficial to be first to market, being first to name call is also effective to damage peoples reputations.

The problem with scientific study is it needs funding, if you dont have the money you cant do an experiment to prove something. How convenient!

As to the wave/particle duality which underpins the whole of quantum physics, can you show me an experiment that can demonstrate the duality without using electricity in a vacuum?

Why do I say this, I'm reminded of a ballon rubbed over some cloth that when held above my head, makes my hair stand up on end. Aka Static electricity albeit not in a vacuum either.

How do you know the wavelength of the electrical supply is not causing the waves seen in things like Feynmans slit experiment, directly or indirectly?

I know when I was woken up in an earthquake, my vision went all funny, perhaps gravity and/or magnestism has more of an indirect effect then people know. Problem with earthquakes is not all survive, just like GP's mistakes are dead and buried.


I'm not closed to the idea of "duality over time", but I also cant help but think there might also be alternative reasons for seeing particle like behaviour in wave forms of energy.

Its also entirely possible that duality can exist because energy can transform a wave into a particle and vice versa, because we cant even really prove the existence of Lamarckism which is the tranfer of knowledge through cells, in much the same way we find the smell of smoke from a wood fire wafting on the breeze a comforting smell, which perhaps hints back to our caveman times.

Edit. On the point of Lamarckism, maybe just maybe, there is inherent knowledge in us because of the way we have evolved since caveman times and before, from what are seen as basic unintelligent chemicals?
And.....goodbye. Clear racism which I edited out, and was reported by at least one other poster.

For others who may be swayed by whatever is in the previous post, don't be.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:17 pm

malvcr wrote:I have been thinking ... how to reduce price, how to reduce price (to increase possibilities) ...

First came to my mind, why not to sell the memory separated from the device? This way you can put whatever quantity you need on it. But after a quick search, the cheapest memory modules are huge (in size), and the small ones cost even more than $5 .. then this medicine is worst than the disease.

There is another option. When thinking about an IOT device, the chances that you really need to connect an HDMI device to it are really small. What could be the cost to creare a real Pi Zero IOT device with "only" one micro-usb port and no video connector? I have, and I am constantly acquiring, several Orange Pi Zero computers without video ports and they are wonderful servers and IOT devices (just the form factor it is different being a square). What you need to do is to prepare your SD card outside the machine (put your IP or WIFI data) and then install inside the Zeroes, boot it and it is ready to use. However, how much to quit the HDMI could reduce the price?

Maybe the real solution is to keep the one per customer restriction for the $5 but to sell batches (let's think about 10 machines) at $7 per machine ... or less than $10 (for not to predate the $10 W price). As an example (thinking on education), if I have a 20 children class and I need to create a project for them, I could acquire two $70 batches with $25.95 (Ship price on Canakit for 10 cameras) shipping for each one ... this is $191.90 total. But if I need to have each child to purchase one, including the risk for some not to receive on time the equipment, they would pay in total: $5+$9.95 (Canakit) x 20 = $299, where the most of the money will go to the shipping company, not to the Foundation. And, the most important part is that they can be available in enough quantity for this and other types of projects.

As somebody else already indicated, the CM are the real commercial option, but (1) they are very expensive for some applications and (2) they are very big, lacking even the connection ports (and when you add what you need they even grow more). The Zero format size it is just "perfect", in fact it is the best feature this small machine has.
The only cost saving removing HDMI is the connector, but that would be a saving, albeit small. BUT, it makes the device useless for the majority of people it is aimed at. Headless usage is a small use case.

The real solution is to accept that large quantities of the $5 computer are NOT going to made available, and accept that you will have to pay a bit more, say, $35, for a 1GB, quad core A53 device with HDMI, accelerated graphics, ethernet, wireless, Bluetooth, 4 USB ports, H264 encode and decode, a camera interface and GPIO's. Or $10 for a 512MB single core Armv6 with single USB, wifi, BT, camera connector. Or for IoT, an Arduino for $5. Or many alternatives.

Whichever you chose, that is CHEAP for what you get! I an forever surprised at what you get for you money nowadays. The Pi3 is 45 times faster than the Cray-1 - the fastest supercomputer in the world when I was growing up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-1
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:58 pm

jamesh wrote: The real solution is to accept that large quantities of the $5 computer are NOT going to made available, and accept that you will have to pay a bit more, say, $35, for a 1GB, quad core A53 device with HDMI, accelerated graphics, ethernet, wireless, Bluetooth, 4 USB ports, H264 encode and decode, a camera interface and GPIO's. Or $10 for a 512MB single core Armv6 with single USB, wifi, BT, camera connector. Or for IoT, an Arduino for $5. Or many alternatives.

Whichever you chose, that is CHEAP for what you get! I an forever surprised at what you get for you money nowadays. The Pi3 is 45 times faster than the Cray-1 - the fastest supercomputer in the world when I was growing up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-1
When one stops to consider that the first commercial transistor on the market (CK-722) sold for $60 *each*, the reduction in the cost of electronics ever since is truly amazing. One of the jokes around my house is the 4th Law of Thermodynamics: Everything takes longer and costs more. Electronics in general and computers specifically break that law.

malvcr
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:35 pm

I lost my long writing when the page asked me to login again ... grrrr ...

To be expedite.

The Zero was not designed as a desktop but as an embedded machine, more similar to the CM than to the RPI3 or 2 series of computers. In fact, the Zero it is like a CM with ports, making it perfect for projects are different from desktops, where you don't need all their features. If you need a real desktop, go with the RPI3 or RPI2.

Then, what is the Zero for? What it is being used for? ... Let's me check the March MagPi ... Game Consoles, Mobile Phones, Handheld, Pokemon finder, Amazon ECHO, Wearable Camera, Smart car Dash, Cluster hat ... etc. This is an embedded project machine it is not a desktop.

Now ... IOT ... Arduino it is very primitive to deal with current security issues. It was created in a distant past where IOT didn't exist. Today we live in a very different scenario, where our intelligent systems are embedded and need complex security, the level only can be provided with computers as the Raspberry Pi Zero.

The Zero opened a pandora box, and it is still open and the door will grow, never to shrink with the time. The Thermodynamics example it is nice, but when there is a disruptive device the consequences are catastrophic for the "other" devices. And being or not the Foundation aware of it, the Zero IS a disruptive device.

Maybe the Foundation can't deal with the situation. Is this the case? It will really be resolved with the Zero W version? And it is important to understand that the CM it is wonderful but it doesn't fit many scenarios as the Zero do.

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CarlRJ
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:02 pm

wayne.dolesman wrote:Sure I could go with an arduino mini but 1k storage means I have to add an additional eeprom (the code is more complex than just open/close) and other things. The cost would increase as a result and the mini is already twice the cost of a 0 and equal to a 0w - absent the SD card. It is probably only a couple dollars difference but I get more flexibility with the pi. And with a couple dozen sensors being processed like a neural net leveraging well developed libraries from others makes it easier to accomplish.
Have you looked at the (various boards using the) ESP8266? It has a 32-bit MCU, not much RAM but quite a lot of flash, built-in WiFi, and it's in the same range for size and price as the Zero W (and much more available). It's perhaps more suited for embedded tasks, as well, because it doesn't need to be shut down before powering off. And there's a bunch of support for programming them with Lua, MicroPython, or like an Arduino.

jamesh
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:05 pm

malvcr wrote:I lost my long writing when the page asked me to login again ... grrrr ...

To be expedite.

The Zero was not designed as a desktop but as an embedded machine, more similar to the CM than to the RPI3 or 2 series of computers. In fact, the Zero it is like a CM with ports, making it perfect for projects are different from desktops, where you don't need all their features. If you need a real desktop, go with the RPI3 or RPI2.

Then, what is the Zero for? What it is being used for? ... Let's me check the March MagPi ... Game Consoles, Mobile Phones, Handheld, Pokemon finder, Amazon ECHO, Wearable Camera, Smart car Dash, Cluster hat ... etc. This is an embedded project machine it is not a desktop.

Now ... IOT ... Arduino it is very primitive to deal with current security issues. It was created in a distant past where IOT didn't exist. Today we live in a very different scenario, where our intelligent systems are embedded and need complex security, the level only can be provided with computers as the Raspberry Pi Zero.

The Zero opened a pandora box, and it is still open and the door will grow, never to shrink with the time. The Thermodynamics example it is nice, but when there is a disruptive device the consequences are catastrophic for the "other" devices. And being or not the Foundation aware of it, the Zero IS a disruptive device.

Maybe the Foundation can't deal with the situation. Is this the case? It will really be resolved with the Zero W version? And it is important to understand that the CM it is wonderful but it doesn't fit many scenarios as the Zero do.
Well, the Zero wasn't really designed as you say, it was designed, really, to see how cheap it could be made. In fact the Zero isn't that great for IoT applications for one big reason - power consumption is too high. It cannot be battery powered for any length of time so needs to be hard wired to a power source, which makes for a bad IoT device for many use cases.

What you need to understand is that the Zero cannot be sold in large quantities at the current price. It's simply not possible. It's not a question of someone coming in and ramping up production, it's a question of there being very little profit in it which makes it cost ineffective. That profit margin isn't going to change, at least as far as I can see in to the future. So you need to accept the $10 ZeroW as about a low as you can go in price for something of that specification.
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peterlite
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:24 pm

Is the ZeroW Wifi sufficient? Has anyone compared it to something like the Edimax?

My Zero/Edimax combination works well. I tested some other low power Wifi options and they failed to have the range/power to be useful. If I were buying a "commercial" device with built in Wifi, I would demand something at least as good as the Edimax.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:01 am

jamesh wrote:
malvcr wrote:I lost my long writing when the page asked me to login again ... grrrr ...

To be expedite.

The Zero was not designed as a desktop but as an embedded machine, more similar to the CM than to the RPI3 or 2 series of computers. In fact, the Zero it is like a CM with ports, making it perfect for projects are different from desktops, where you don't need all their features. If you need a real desktop, go with the RPI3 or RPI2.

Then, what is the Zero for? What it is being used for? ... Let's me check the March MagPi ... Game Consoles, Mobile Phones, Handheld, Pokemon finder, Amazon ECHO, Wearable Camera, Smart car Dash, Cluster hat ... etc. This is an embedded project machine it is not a desktop.

Now ... IOT ... Arduino it is very primitive to deal with current security issues. It was created in a distant past where IOT didn't exist. Today we live in a very different scenario, where our intelligent systems are embedded and need complex security, the level only can be provided with computers as the Raspberry Pi Zero.

The Zero opened a pandora box, and it is still open and the door will grow, never to shrink with the time. The Thermodynamics example it is nice, but when there is a disruptive device the consequences are catastrophic for the "other" devices. And being or not the Foundation aware of it, the Zero IS a disruptive device.

Maybe the Foundation can't deal with the situation. Is this the case? It will really be resolved with the Zero W version? And it is important to understand that the CM it is wonderful but it doesn't fit many scenarios as the Zero do.
Well, the Zero wasn't really designed as you say, it was designed, really, to see how cheap it could be made. In fact the Zero isn't that great for IoT applications for one big reason - power consumption is too high. It cannot be battery powered for any length of time so needs to be hard wired to a power source, which makes for a bad IoT device for many use cases.
I agree that the "design goal" was "as cheap as possible", I do use a Pi Zero in a battery powered arrangement. To wit, an electronic name badge. A 4Ah "powerbank" will power a Pi Zero with a 3.5" display for about 14 hours on one charge. So...maybe not "IoT", but "wearable" anyway.

I rather suspect that it was a case of making the Pi Zero as cheap as possible, then throwing it out there to see what people would do with it. The headache is that a "$5 computer" caught peoples imaginations and the rest has been continuing rounds of trying--and often failing--to keep the pipeline from factory to retailer going as smoothly as possible. The low production rate has continued to fuel the supply problem, since anyone that thinks they have future use for multiple Pi Zeros is going to keep buying them whenever possible against that future need. Manufacturing *may* catch up when enough people realize that they have a decent sized box *full* of unused Pi Zeros on hand still waiting for that future use.

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