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HawaiianPi
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:44 pm

scottsri58 wrote:Thanks

Is the 1 limit just a temp thing? Will quantities be available? ...
At this point in time it's safer to assume that large quantities will never be an option on any Pi-Zero product.

Despite all the speculation and nonsense above, the FACT is that the original Pi-Zero limits were suppose to be temporary and have yet to be repealed, even after nearly a year and a half and millions sold. The Pi0W is being made by the same people making the non-WiFi Pi-Zero (RPT/Sony), and they can't even keep up with the demand for the old Pi-Zero. Adding yet another model to the production line is not going to improve the situation.

Bottom line, if you need the Pi-Zero in quantity, you are SOL.

The mandate of the Raspberry Pi Foundation is to support education, not to supply cheap computers for others to profit off of. Like it or not, the Pi-Zero is just not an option for any commercial product, unless you are making them in small quantities, and in that case you'll need to factor in the one-at-a-time order/shipping cost of your Pi-Zero parts.
Last edited by HawaiianPi on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:00 pm

HawaiianPi wrote: The Pi0W is being made by the same people making the non-WiFi Pi-Zero (RPF/Sony),
As I already stated it is RPT responsible for the Raspberry Pi hardware.......
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:09 pm

Ok, thanks for the economics of Manufacturing.

I need a cheap wifi/bluetooth device that will signal an app I'm working on.
The Pi Zero/W looks promising.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:34 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
HawaiianPi wrote: The Pi0W is being made by the same people making the non-WiFi Pi-Zero (RPF/Sony),
As I already stated it is RPT responsible for the Raspberry Pi hardware.......
Sorry, typed an F where I should have put a T. Corrected.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:35 pm

scottsri58 wrote:Ok, thanks for the economics of Manufacturing.

I need a cheap wifi/bluetooth device that will signal an app I'm working on.
The Pi Zero/W looks promising.
I have no idea of the supply situation, but Microbit also has BT & WiFi on a similarly small board. It's a microcontroller, no Linux, no video, a few gpio, but you haven't said what you need it to do. Maybe it would suit. At least you can buy in multiple units under £10 ea.

And of course there is the Pi3B

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:44 am

DirkS wrote:You're still assuming that any increase in profit is going to Sony. No idea why you're thinking that's the case...
Because, as I see things, production capacity is the problem. If RPF want to make the Zero W a success and not have one per customer limits forever they need to solve that. That's the priority, the critical path. That's where the money has to go. It's what makes greatest sense.

Currently, when Sony make Zeroes they have to stop making other Pi variants. That means missing out on their profit from those other Pi variants. And there's not enough profit in the Zeroes to justify a whole new production line for those.

To have Zero W's in quantity there needs to be more production capacity. The Zero W profits need to pay for that extra capacity. Giving Sony the lion share makes sense, allows that to happen.

RPT and retailers will be making the same profit on the Zero W as they did on the Zero. Any RPT NRE and development costs can come out of their 'cash balance', don't have to be recovered through Zero W sales, and I'm guessing that's probably how it was for the Zero. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do and it's not like the RPT are short of cash; they had an operating profit of £3.6 million in 2015.

RPT and retailers will generate more profit through selling more Zero W's, and with production increased they'll be able to do that. And the biggest complaint relating to the Zero goes away.

It would be nice if everyone got some extra profit, and perhaps everyone will, but allocating the lion share to Sony makes perfect sense to me.
DirkS wrote:Anyway, I'm out of this discussion as we're way too far off topic by now.
Me too. I only added this post to justify what I believe as that was being question.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:12 am

Pi0 and other models are on different production lines AFAIK. They certainly need different test machines.

Production capacity is not the only issue at play here.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:22 pm

jamesh wrote:Pi0 and other models are on different production lines AFAIK. They certainly need different test machines.

Production capacity is not the only issue at play here.
Yes only so many BCM2835 SoC's can be manufactured in a day and need to share with A+ / B+ / CM1 board production ;)
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:47 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Yes only so many BCM2835 SoC's can be manufactured in a day and need to share with A+ / B+ / CM1 board production ;)
Good point. If BCM2835 production does not allow Zero W production to meet demand some purchase quantity restrictions may have to remain in place.

I can now see why some are not convinced availability and bulk supply of Zero W's will be any better than for Zeroes and are sceptical that will change any time soon,

It seems a bit of a mixed message; on one hand the increased price should improve things but perhaps not as much or as soon as people are hoping because, on the other hand, there are other constraints on production. I no longer know what to think.

I guess we just have to wait to hear what production quantities the Foundation say they have planned, make our own judgement on what demand will be, and what that likely means.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:42 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
jamesh wrote:Pi0 and other models are on different production lines AFAIK. They certainly need different test machines.

Production capacity is not the only issue at play here.
Yes only so many BCM2835 SoC's can be manufactured in a day and need to share with A+ / B+ / CM1 board production ;)
You just order more upfront. Brcm will make as many as you want (Although the lead time is in multiple months). There may be an upper capacity if someone like Apple uses up all the fab space, but that is unusual. There is usually spare fab capacity somewhere.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:44 pm

HawaiianPi wrote: Despite all the speculation and nonsense above, the FACT is that the original Pi-Zero limits were suppose to be temporary and have yet to be repealed, even after nearly a year and a half and millions sold.
Closer to 15 months and--per Eben Upton's remarks at the party last weekend (as posted on Facebook)--500K Pi Zeros have been sold.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:14 pm

Come on
PiZero's can be made in Sony, Japan and Embest as shown on the ones that have come out.
PiZ have little profit and RPF/T have to stump up the initial production costs.
Sell lots of these and the more profitable 2s and 3s and probably CMs loose sales = grumpy RS/Farnell production and lack of RPT/F income.
Restrict Zero sales and people buy the 2s and 3s and CMs creating profit.

If ZeroW can create similar profit then production does not need to be artificially restricted since loss of sales of 2s and 3s are not a problem.*

I suggest the OP asks RPT what sort of purchasing they could do direct and cut out the customer focused middlemen resellers. They may give you a quote and volume, you never know.


*Unless it creates grumpy partnerships with say RS/Farnell and 2s and 3s sales drops and they cannot do the ZeroW efficiently for their needed profit.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:24 pm

Someone has been paying attention!
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:56 pm

bensimmo wrote:PiZero's can be made in Sony, Japan and Embest as shown on the ones that have come out.
Eben Upton via MagPi wrote:But, given the tradition for new Pi models to sell out at launch, why is it taking so long to ramp up production on the Zero? The answer lies in the board’s unique position, Eben reveals. “This isn’t quite the same as the other Pis, because the other Pis are made by RS and Farnell. We make these Pis, so you’re actually looking at a small company trying to scale.”
https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/raspb ... -on-track/

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:37 pm

FlexibleSigmoid wrote:
bensimmo wrote:PiZero's can be made in Sony, Japan and Embest as shown on the ones that have come out.
Eben Upton via MagPi wrote:But, given the tradition for new Pi models to sell out at launch, why is it taking so long to ramp up production on the Zero? The answer lies in the board’s unique position, Eben reveals. “This isn’t quite the same as the other Pis, because the other Pis are made by RS and Farnell. We make these Pis, so you’re actually looking at a small company trying to scale.”
https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/raspb ... -on-track/
?

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:07 pm

jamesh wrote:Pi0 and other models are on different production lines AFAIK. They certainly need different test machines.
While the need for different test jigs would certainly be true (due to differences in test points and the--presumed--need to test WiFi/BT), and it *might* imply a need for different test machines, I don't think that implies a different production line. After all, the other models all require different testing from each other as well, and they are, so far as I know, all done on the same production lines.
Production capacity is not the only issue at play here.
Yup.

I have said for some time that Sony Pencoed ought to set up an additional Pi production line, though the margins on the Pi Zero are almost certainly too low to justify doing so just for those boards. May one presume that a second line has actually been set so that general Pi production can be increased? And that that is providing enough extra capacity so as remove that particular concern from consideration?

After all...Eben did say that 4 million Pi3Bs were sold in the last year (same citation that I used for the 500K Pi Zeros, above) and just that appears to be more than total production was even a couple of years ago.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:16 pm

How about the A+? There are (as of this posting) 27,963 A+ available just on RS alone for £16.49 when you buy 5 or more, and can be delivered next day. (To the UK. Here are other countries. In the USA it's $20 and 488 in stock, more can be backordered.)

I'm going to try to use the Zero W for my product, but if supply isn't there the A+ is still a great option... for me. It even includes the headers :D

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

SlowBro wrote:How about the A+? There are (as of this posting) 27,963 A+ available just on RS alone for £16.49 when you buy 5 or more, and can be delivered next day. (To the UK. Here are other countries. In the USA it's $20 and 488 in stock, more can be backordered.)

I'm going to try to use the Zero W for my product, but if supply isn't there the A+ is still a great option... for me. It even includes the headers :D
What's more, all indications are that when the Pi3A is released, it will include WiFi/BT as well as the BCM2837 SoC.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:59 pm

The original post has been answered and the advice, which was somewhere also posted by a Mod, is the Zero family are not the correct SBC for a Commercial Product as basically there are no guarantees on form factor and long term availability.

The CM is the correct product.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:39 am

The A+ doesn't include the WiFi or BT, which is the advantage of the ZeroW Iover the cheaper Zero.
So add that cost as well.


It all depends what you use it for.
The A+ is a well used Pi for commercial/buisiness products.


As a side, go have a play with the Nintendo Switch sales displays, they're powered by Pi's.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:00 am

bensimmo wrote:The A+ is a well used Pi for commercial/buisiness products.
As an aside, go have a play with the Nintendo Switch sales displays, they're powered by Pi's.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch ... pberry_pi/

It's actually a pi3 inside - note bluetooth and 4 raspberries.
They probably could have got away with an A+ as it only appears to be looping videos with user selection via touchscreen.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:37 pm

The 'aside' didn't know what was inside, just an example of commercial use.

Thanks for pointing that out.
They might just be using it for the speed and availability at the time.

Now someone slip a RetroPie card in there.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:38 pm

There is no problem when somebody creates a device with a distribution restriction. However, there is a real issue when an expectation that can't be fullfilled is created.

When the Zero device appeared at $5, the Raspberry Pi was already a "best seller". Then the message was very clear: this is not a desktop computer but an IOT device, so try it in the environments where IOT is expected ... of course with education as first priority. And IOT requires "quantity" of devices. Even the GIOP are not populated, something suggest fixed soldering with fixed usage and dedicated machines for specific projects.

Not to realize that to constraint so mutch the distribution it is clearly damaging the wonders could be done with the machine. I really expect this change in the future, to see a succesful machine and not a theoretical failure as the OLPC (only 2.4 million machines in so many years compared with 5 million RPI3 in one year). The Zero potential is in the tents of hundreds of million devices each year.

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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:31 pm

malvcr wrote:There is no problem when somebody creates a device with a distribution restriction. However, there is a real issue when an expectation that can't be fullfilled is created.

When the Zero device appeared at $5, the Raspberry Pi was already a "best seller". Then the message was very clear: this is not a desktop computer but an IOT device, so try it in the environments where IOT is expected ... of course with education as first priority. And IOT requires "quantity" of devices. Even the GIOP are not populated, something suggest fixed soldering with fixed usage and dedicated machines for specific projects.

Not to realize that to constraint so mutch the distribution it is clearly damaging the wonders could be done with the machine. I really expect this change in the future, to see a succesful machine and not a theoretical failure as the OLPC (only 2.4 million machines in so many years compared with 5 million RPI3 in one year). The Zero potential is in the tents of hundreds of million devices each year.
The constraint on the original Zero is due to the low price not making it economically feasible to manufacture/sell in large quantities. It's OK as a low run device, as an example of how low a price you can get to if you don;t care about profit.

So it cannot be a replacement to the OLPC or similar devices without, presumably, raising the price.

The problem is that people are now expecting something that, actually, cannot be achieved.
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Re: Commercial Use of the Pi

Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:54 pm

I hope it is achievable with the W as I can see soooooo many applications for it!
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