mbushroe
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feature request micro SD

Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:00 am

When looking for larger SD cards to burn myself, I found most available SD cards are now micro SDs with an SD adapter. Since cost and availability is not longer a limitation, why not shift to a micro SD connector? That would better fit the over all form factor, allow a complete and functional system to fit in a smaller space, and decrease the number of connections between the board and the memory.

I also agree with some other posts that a mini-USB or barrel connector for power would be easier to work with than the micro USB power connector on the current models. However, now that I have a power supply per card, that is not as big an issue for me.

Mike

stevepdp
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:30 am

Where are you shopping for cards? I understand that SD cards are still very popular given their continued use in digital cameras.

I'm guessing you've only looked in mobile phone shops, where Micro-SD is the dominant additional storage format.

If you're interested in a flush fit, this sort of Micro-SD adapter for the Pi may be of interest to you.

Remember that the Raspberry Pi was designed to answer the needs of children purchasing their first computer. They chose micro USB for power, composite for older displays and SD cards for storage because it was very likely that a child already had access to these things at home.

felix123
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:31 am

How would you like 30 6-year olds handling microSD cards? ;)

stevepdp
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:35 am

Yes, there's that too.

SD cards are less difficult to loose and are generally far more durable than Micro SD cards.

jamesh
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:20 am

Switching to uSD could mean reducing the availability - at least with SD you can use an adapter for uSD, but you cannot the other way round. Also, SD is a more robust socket than uSD, which is very important.
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mbushroe
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:10 am

stevepdp wrote:Where are you shopping for cards? I understand that SD cards are still very popular given their continued use in digital cameras..
Actually, that was using Google shopping! I had no idea the micro SD were being used in phones. I still use a tracfone myself. Yes, cameras are definitely still full sized, but that is probably why most micros come with adapters.

As for 30 6 year olds, I think you have it BACKWARDS! With the SD sticking so FAR out this side, little kids handling the Raspberry Pi would lead to lots of broken and bent connectors. With a micro within the outline of the board, there would be considerably less bent pins, broken connectors, and cards pulled enough out of place to make poor contact. Especially if the micro SD connector had a little spring tab was a type that had a little spring tab to flip up and hold it in place once it was fully seated. After all, how many times do you pull the main harddrive out of a computer? I wold think that once the SD card was in place, it would stay there. So a tiny one that slipped in and didn't fall out would seem better for 6 year olds. And the micro SD might actually reduce the choking hazard. It is so small it would be swallowed, not get stuck.

As for availability, accept for using existing supplies of older 4G SD cards, I don't think it will be any less available. As I mentioned, 3/4 of the first page I found with Google was micros that needed an adapter to fit.

Mike

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Dweeber
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:22 am

I get these, best of both worlds..... MicroUSB with SDcard Adapter...

Kingston 16GB class 4 MicroUSB SDHC with SDcard Adapter... Currently running around $10 with shipping (Amazon Prime) Just picked up 4 more of them. Not sure I would use them with young kids though... a MicroUSB is pretty easy to lose.
Dweeber A.K.A. Kevin...
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roelb
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:22 pm

At the risk of re-opening a somewhat older topic, I would like to voice my support for a future switch to micro-SD.

I broke my SD socket within about 15 minutes of using the Pi. It fell about a feet onto the desk, right on the SD card. Being so light, just torsion in a network cable caused it to slip off the case it was lying on. As a result, my SD socket is now fortified with a piece of plastic glued on top. Sure, it works, but looking at the intended use of the Pi, it should be able to survive some light phyiscal abuse.

A standard push-push micro SD socket instead of full-size SD would solve the issue. The card would be flush with the board and much less vulnarable.

Sure, I can see the argument for a larger size memory card - micro-SD's are tiny and easily misplaced. But the argument can be reversed: for most intended use cases, the SD card will probably remain with a single Pi during most of it's lifetime and not be continuously swapped. With that in mind, using full-size SD cards that stick out and can easily be damaged or removed might actually not be such an advantage. And if I break this socket within 15 minutes, the expected MTBF in a school-class situation is probably quite low ;-).

Roel.

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Jessie
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Re: feature request micro SD

Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:11 pm

I don't think it really matters at this point. People just seem to want a slot type for whatever they have the most of laying around. Loss is about the only decent argument anymore since cost is about the same these days.

The fact that these sockets are breaking has to do with how far the card sticks out combined with the low quality of the socket. There are plenty of stronger higher quality sd card slots out there I'm sure this one was chosen for various cost and design reasons. I'm not sure of the cost of a micro slot but I'm sure that one of similar cost would be just as poor.

Honestly I could care less if we had either type of slot. The argument that I would make in favor of the micro sd slot is that maybe it would be possible to combine that slot with micro USB and micro hdmi and get all the connectors on one or two edges. A day dream.

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pluggy
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:44 pm

Spare a thought for us old buggers who can't see a micro SD card........

I'd vote for a metal SD card slot though.
Don't judge Linux by the Pi.......
I must not tread on too many sacred cows......

dpenezic
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:18 pm

I dont know what solution is better for target customer, but i hope that technical people which decide to use SD card slot wouldn't sleep well tonight.

Connector is broken under very slight pressure, and if some one think that is good for 6 year old kid, that is O.K. .

MicroSD card have better and stronger connector, even metal one, and I didnt able to broke it with my hand no meter what I did.

And please dont tell me that connector cost more :) ... i produce boards with it and know very well what is a price.

Regards,
Dubravko

WeUsePis
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:59 pm

I think the choice to go with SD rather than microSD is that the tiny microSD cards are easily lost, not so much broken. I don't know if microSD or SD sockets are more durable, but I think you need to be quite brutal with either one to break it - not saying it isn't possible. Most microSD cards I found for sale come with an SD card adapter. In fact, I use that setup right now in my Pi (Kingston 8 GB microSD with the adapter that came with it) and it works fine.
As with many other discussions about why does the Pi not have this or that, folks, I don't know why some get so bent out of shape. Here we got a handful of people who start a foundation to bring the world a 35$ multi-purpose PC that you can surf the web with, send emails, write documents, program applications, play games, control electronics, and do a whole bunch of other nifty stuff with and you start complaining? I am sure the great people from the Pi Foundation could have spent their nights and weekends doing other stuff than design such an incredible engineering marvel. I am quite sure that they could have stuffed it into a nice box, write some text books for it, and then sell it to school districts for an unethical amount of money. But no, they sell it what I understand is at cost. How many people dedicate their best years of their lives to craft something that is so incredible? There are not that many.
To bring this back to topic, use the adapter as others and I have suggested. The type of memory card to use and which socket to put on the board was had during the design phase and more arguments apparently pointed to using the regular SD socket. You could use some silicone (hot glue might be a bad idea) and permanently affix an adapter to the SD socket. Voilá, there is the microSD socket.
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toxibunny
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Re: feature request micro SD

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:14 pm

you can get small adaptors for the pi nowadays so you can use a micro sd card without it sticking out the side.

http://www.adafruit.com/products/966 with an honourable mention to http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/443 ... spberry-pi who I think did it first...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

dpenezic
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:20 am

Morning after my Pi has broken SD card connector, and reread few people post again.

Please be aver that I pay 42 pound not 35$ for Pi, and I am not able to buy it for 35$ anywhere, so please stop talking about 35$ first PC.

Second even if that piece of board cost 35$, it isnt PC at all, you need much more money to complete configuration, and I dont care if institution which produce something is charity Foundation or not.

I like to have durable hardware for work with acceptable price.

Lets back to important things :) ... for all Raspberry Pi evangelist , please read message from users, they said SD card connector and way of usage isnt good at all. It is incredible easy to broke connector, and in many case users arn't able to fix it.
I understand that on market is some fix for it, but that is only dirty fix, not solution for issue.

Finally, i dont care how Foundation will fix that issue, i just wont to point on issue.

My opinion is that microSD card can easy and fast fix a issue, without any major reengineering.

Regards,
DUbravko

WeUsePis
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:10 pm

OK, so it is 42 Pounds for you, I bought mine at Newark an it was 35$. I also would have paid 42 Pounds and still considered it a steal. As far as additional cost, buy a mainboard with processor and RAM in a bundle from anywhere and you face the same issues: need to buy long term storage, keyboard, mouse, monitor. I think the Pi is durable enough as long as you are a bit careful with it, same applies to any other gadget. And if SD slots are that horrible I wonder why so many camera manufacturers made that a de facto standard. OK, you want a microSD slot, I am sure the Pi designers will make note of the request.
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Jessie
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:40 pm

dpenezic wrote:
MicroSD card have better and stronger connector, even metal one, and I didnt able to broke it with my hand no meter what I did.

And please dont tell me that connector cost more :) ... i produce boards with it and know very well what is a price.

Regards,
Dubravko
Yeh well I'm a world class body builder and mensa member... Oh wait this is the internet we have no way of verifying anybody's claims.

I built a project 3 years agao and they make good strong standard SD card slots as well. I used a steel one for my project. It is very sturdy, and it cost me $6. $6 is a hell of a lot of money for slot on a low cost PC. Would it cost them $6? I doubt it would cost half that for a bulk buy, as I bought just one. But even if the SD card slot/connector cost $2 I bet that would be too much. I am here telling you a better connector does cost more. The connector in question wasn't chosen just to piss people off it was chosen to meet the price.

@DUbravko, I have bought 3 R-Pi at $35. I have never paid more than retail. If you paid more than that you either bought from the wrong retailer or you are adding in tax and shipping whitch we all know has nothing to do with the price of the device. On to your next point, so if I already had all the parts laying around and had to buy nothing does that exclude me? Your points have been beaten to death around here and are just plane retarded. Plenty of intel/windows PCs still get sold every day without a kb/mouse/monitor. I build my own PCs but if for some reason I went out to buy a prebuilt machine I wouldn't want a crap included kb/mouse/monitor. The good stuff never comes with a PC, good enough for grandpa maybe but not good enough for anyone who spends serious time behind a desk.

If this thread dosn't get productive soon its getting locked.

dpenezic
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:37 pm

:)
Short comment on price, I am not able to buy Pi on 35$ price because Fundation decide who is seller for my country, and I am not able to do anything to lower a price, and yes for me price of board is price I pay to get legal equipment, what is or isnt include i dont care at all.

Second price of connector, i sell microSD metal connector as part of board for 0.7 US$, and if you buy on quantity 1000+ for sure will be less then 0.30 US$ on retail market, plus that type of connector is push/pull which exclude any unnecessary force to operate. And finally, if Fundation designer so much like existing connector, PCB psi in big quantity cost less then 2$ in small production (100+) so i may say Pi will cost 36 US$ and SD card will be cover with necessary protection plus more space on board.

I think thread is very productive, because it is easy to found in it few interesting technical solutions for very annoying issue.

Regards,
Dubravko

sghsmorgan
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:52 pm

I would much rather have a micro SD slot, especially if it meant having more room for more something better.

Joe Schmoe
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:36 pm

In the category of "For what it is worth", somewhere earlier (either in this thread or another one like it), someone from the Foundation stated that uSD was not a legal option, b/c of the risk of swallowing. Yes, you read that right - swallowing.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

jamesh
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Re: feature request micro SD

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:29 pm

dpenezic wrote::)
Short comment on price, I am not able to buy Pi on 35$ price because Fundation decide who is seller for my country, and I am not able to do anything to lower a price, and yes for me price of board is price I pay to get legal equipment, what is or isnt include i dont care at all.

Second price of connector, i sell microSD metal connector as part of board for 0.7 US$, and if you buy on quantity 1000+ for sure will be less then 0.30 US$ on retail market, plus that type of connector is push/pull which exclude any unnecessary force to operate. And finally, if Fundation designer so much like existing connector, PCB psi in big quantity cost less then 2$ in small production (100+) so i may say Pi will cost 36 US$ and SD card will be cover with necessary protection plus more space on board.

I think thread is very productive, because it is easy to found in it few interesting technical solutions for very annoying issue.

Regards,
Dubravko
The Foundation does not decide the sellers in various countries - that's down to the manufacturer/distributors. But where the Foundation sees unnecessary price markups we do talk to the manufacturers about it the price as should be very close to the $35 we quote (Plus usual tax and postage)

Full size connectors are cheaper than uSD. Not buy much, but by enough. In addition, uSD are slots ARE more fragile, but they are getting better. But to get one as robust as a decent SD card connectors is too expensive. Just adding $1 to the end price of the Pi would be a bad move.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Please direct all questions to the forum, I do not do support via PM.

roelb
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Re: feature request micro SD

Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
dpenezic wrote::)
Full size connectors are cheaper than uSD. Not buy much, but by enough. In addition, uSD are slots ARE more fragile, but they are getting better. But to get one as robust as a decent SD card connectors is too expensive. Just adding $1 to the end price of the Pi would be a bad move.
Agreed. But the current connector is not the robust connector you are referring to. A metal connector would be a solution, but that also comes at a premium price point. When looking at the bulk pricing for these components, it seems to me that a push-push micro-USB connector would be a more price efficient solution, at about the same price point as the current plastic full-size connector, but more sturdy.

But that does not take into account all the other arguments, including the argument of swallowing that was posted by someone. However, phones are legal devices as well and a large number of them use micro SD cards /and/ are used by children. It would seem very strange to me if the Pi could not have micro-SD for that reason as it seems that the whole world is migrating away from full-size SD to micro-SD. It seems an excaggurated risk to me. Micro-SD cards are simply too small to pose any risk when ingested. If it were to survive digestion an ingested card will simply come out the other end.

This topic shows that people, real customers and users, are having reliability issues with the current socket. It therefore should deserve attention. Threathening to close the topic will not take that away. Telling people "not to complain" because of the price of the Pi and/or the status of the foundation is also somewhat of a non-argument. Coming from moderators, it does not contribute to a good and open conversation. No matter what the price or whether it is produced for profit or not-for-profit, any device should be up to the task for which it is designed and not have an extremely fragile memory card slot - which happens to be a requirement for using the Pi.

And a large number of warranty claims because of broken sockets is also expensive. People such as us, who buy a single or few devices and have a soldering iron on the other desk will simply fix it themselves. But if this happens in educational institutions they will either be disappointed with the Pi and stop using it or go back to their supplier with the claim that the device is not up to it's intended purpose. In both situations, the bottom line suffers.

Roel.

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Jessie
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Re: feature request micro SD

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Alright the horse has been beaten once again.

The micro SD vs SD debate has been beaten to death since well before launch.

People are aware that the current connector is breaking for some. I have 3 R Pi one of which I regularly swap cards on and have never had an issue with it. But I will give everyone the benefit of the doubt here. The fact still remains that this connector is what it is for the time being.

No more to see here...

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