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Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:59 pm
by rahlquist
So the last big thread I saw on this was locked down in August. So I again through out the question;

Any chance of the order limits being lifted soon? Anyone have any insight? I see it looks like Adafruit is OOS again. I'm not looking for commercial purchase quantities but to be able to buy 5-10 would be nice. The comments in the August thread seemed to lead one to think that most expected the limits to be released RSN. But...

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:09 pm
by mikronauts
I don't think the limit will be lifted for a long time... if ever.

With the CM3 being released, the B+ model 1.2, all we are missing is a BCM2837 based A+ model 1.2 at which point the Pi Zero and CM1 will be the only boards still using the single core BCM2835 SOC.

It simply does not make sense for the Pi Foundation and Broadcom to keep producing the single core board and SOC respectively.

I personally would love to see a BCM2837 based "Zero v1.2" with WiFi at around $10, easily available in quantity.
rahlquist wrote:So the last big thread I saw on this was locked down in August. So I again through out the question;

Any chance of the order limits being lifted soon? Anyone have any insight? I see it looks like Adafruit is OOS again. I'm not looking for commercial purchase quantities but to be able to buy 5-10 would be nice. The comments in the August thread seemed to lead one to think that most expected the limits to be released RSN. But...

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:27 pm
by ejolson
mikronauts wrote:It simply does not make sense for the Pi Foundation and Broadcom to keep producing the single core board and SOC respectively.
The single core Pi Zero uses much less electricity than a Pi 3, which is important running from batteries, solar panels and embedded.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:36 pm
by mikerr
Well it's 2 per day if you order from both http://thepihut.com and http://pimoroni.com

Note that Western Digital now has a supply of pizero which it's selling with a HDD and interface - the Node Zero:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=171736

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:45 pm
by B.Goode
So the last big thread I saw on this was locked down in August.
You apparently overlooked this one which got to 65 posts before being locked on Sunday 15th Jan: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=171346

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:46 pm
by ElEscalador
Horse...So...Dead...

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:47 pm
by Heater
rahlquist
So the last big thread I saw on this was locked down in August.
You have not been paying attention. The last big thread about Pi Zero order limits was locked down on Jan 15th. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=171346

That's only two days ago. Feels like this topic comes up every two days !

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:25 pm
by stderr
mikerr wrote:Note that Western Digital now has a supply of pizero which it's selling with a HDD and interface - the Node Zero:
Somehow there is enough supply for WD to buy more than one at a time.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:32 pm
by aTao
mikronauts wrote:
It simply does not make sense for the Pi Foundation and Broadcom to keep producing the single core board and SOC respectively.
Maybe for the Pi Foundation, but I am willing to bet that Broadcom have a few other customers that use it, In fact I would go so far as to say that if the Pi Foundation were the only customer using it, it would vanish pdq.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:00 pm
by W. H. Heydt
rahlquist wrote:So the last big thread I saw on this was locked down in August. So I again through out the question;

Any chance of the order limits being lifted soon? Anyone have any insight? I see it looks like Adafruit is OOS again. I'm not looking for commercial purchase quantities but to be able to buy 5-10 would be nice. The comments in the August thread seemed to lead one to think that most expected the limits to be released RSN. But...
Well... WD allowed me to put 5 PiDrive Node Zeros in my "basket", and those include Pi Zeros, so if you're willing to pay $45 each, you *can* get at least 5 at a time.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:10 pm
by mikronauts
I have many potential uses for it, for the reasons you mention and its size, but I have given up waiting for it to be available to purchase in quantity.
ejolson wrote:
mikronauts wrote:It simply does not make sense for the Pi Foundation and Broadcom to keep producing the single core board and SOC respectively.
The single core Pi Zero uses much less electricity than a Pi 3, which is important running from batteries, solar panels and embedded.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:16 pm
by W. H. Heydt
mikronauts wrote:I don't think the limit will be lifted for a long time... if ever.

With the CM3 being released, the B+ model 1.2, all we are missing is a BCM2837 based A+ model 1.2 at which point the Pi Zero and CM1 will be the only boards still using the single core BCM2835 SOC.

It simply does not make sense for the Pi Foundation and Broadcom to keep producing the single core board and SOC respectively.

I personally would love to see a BCM2837 based "Zero v1.2" with WiFi at around $10, easily available in quantity.
By "B+ v1.2" I think you mean the Pi2B v1.2, aka Pi2B2. Even so, once the Pi3A shows up, I think there will still be a market for the A+ as a lower powered alternative as well as the Pi Zero (same power, but smaller and cheaper). Since the whole point of the Pi Zero is minimal cost, adding Wifi & BT and raising the price is contrary to the intent of the device. I would expect the Pi Zero to continue to be made as long as there is an active market for it...and that--contrary to many expectations--has not gone away. And, by the way, the current Pi Zero is v1.3.

It is unclear to me if the CM3 will drive the CM1 out of the market. Existing products using the CM1 would probably continue to do so, especially with the price drop for the CM1.

The thing that could--potentially, I think--impact demand for the current Pi Zero would be if someone at Broadcom, as part of the effort to transition to 28nm, were to get a single core Cortex-A53 design working. If it then became possible to make them cheap enough, that could lead to a "Pi Zero v2.0". The SoC would have to accept PoP RAM (keeping manufacturing on a single side of the board) and might--therefore--be limited to 512MB.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
by CarlRJ
In answer to the subject, yes, it very much is beating a dead horse for the N-thousandth time. The Foundation is well aware that many of us would love to have the limit raised, and they are aware of the various lines of reasoning that have been put forth numerous times. They will raise the limit when they deem it reasonable to do so, and new posts on the forum every third day won't help the situation.

Me, I want a Pi-Zero-with-SDIO-based-WiFi-added (and some pink ponies/unicorns) as I think this would be ideal for many projects (absolutely minimal Linux SBC with GPIO pins, WiFi, and an available USB port), but I'll continue to do fun/interesting things with the Pi hardware we have now (and continue to be amazed at the crazy low price point of the current Zero), while waiting patiently for further announcements from the Foundation.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:52 pm
by Martin Frezman
Note that you *can* buy as many as you can find, provided you are willing to pay the (scalper's) price(s). Just look around on eBay - you'll find 'em. You'll be paying market price, instead of the artificially low, "optical" $5 price.

But here's the thing. Here's what's galling about it.

All that producer surplus is going to the scalpers and not to the RPF. As good loyal supporters of the RPF, we'd like to see *them* (the RPF) benefit from the situation, not the scalpers. That's why many of us have argued that the artificial limit should be removed and let the price rise to meet the market.

Of course, the counter-arg to this that it may in fact be a goal to keep the price low so that less-well-off consumers can buy it - they can buy it for almost no money, but they can't buy a lot of them. It is a tradeoff, and valid arguments can be made both ways.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:20 pm
by Heater
I concur with your analysis. Except the part about "...artificially low...."

If I choose to put my stuff on the market I can ask whatever price I like for it. I may not get it if it's too high for people to consider. Like when the same is available cheaper elsewhere.

I might choose to give it away for free even.

There is nothing "artificial" about any of this. Unless perhaps I am selling at a loss and subsidizing that from elsewhere. For whatever devious purposes. I don't believe that is the case here.

I can't believe the "scalpers" problem is big enough to be an issue. I could buy a Pi Zero tomorrow and put up on ebay at many times the price I paid. Well, given that I cannot get hold of so many so fast I'm not going to get fat out of that. Meanwhile the kids can get themselves a Zero to do interesting stuff with really cheaply.

All sounds good to me.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:25 pm
by mfa298
Martin Frezman wrote: All that producer surplus is going to the scalpers and not to the RPF. As good loyal supporters of the RPF, we'd like to see *them* (the RPF) benefit from the situation, not the scalpers. That's why many of us have argued that the artificial limit should be removed and let the price rise to meet the market.
I'm not aware of there being anything to stop you buying one a day from the various official outlets. That's probably cheaper than the scalpers and gets you the same result. How many people actually need to buy 10 (or more zeros) and have them delivered next day.

The stated aim of the Zero is to have something that's as close to zero cost as possible but it still feasible to make, the $5 price point seems to fit that aim (AIUI it's profitable, but not by much). Increasing the price doesn't meet that aim so is highly unlikely to happen.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:13 am
by Heater
mattmiller,

Admittedly I have not considered the problems of schools and clubs. I'm not sure what would be a good solution there. Except, lesson one is: order a Pi Zero for yourself before you come to the class/club meeting.
Because you seem to be quite clued in general so I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse over this?
Why thank you. Quite the contrary, I try to express myself as simply and clearly as possible.

To be frank, the regular Pi are so astoundingly cheap already, compared to what we ever had before, I wonder why all the fuss over the Zero.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:18 am
by W. H. Heydt
Heater wrote: To be frank, the regular Pi are so astoundingly cheap already, compared to what we ever had before, I wonder why all the fuss over the Zero.
I think the $5 price grabs attention, something the RPF has been able to do with remarkable regularity, probably to the distress of every other SBC maker in the world.

Sure, for many of us, a $35 or $25 computer comes under the heading of "let me check my wallet...sure I'll buy that", but at $5 it comes under the heading of "small change". The level of money that you know you won't miss. It's the price of a cup of coffee whose description takes a minute to recite, or a single trip across a toll bridge. An amount of money too trivial to worry about...and it's a computer.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:21 am
by W. H. Heydt
Question for those posting to this thread (or even the lurkers)... Have you ever pulled a Pi Zero out of your pocket and asked someone how much they think it costs? Either before or after stating what it? What sort of answers did you get for the first guess? (I've gotten answers as high as $1000. Yeah...right...I routinely carry $1000 electronics boards in my pocket...)

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:33 am
by rahlquist
mikerr wrote:Well it's 2 per day if you order from both http://thepihut.com and http://pimoroni.com

Note that Western Digital now has a supply of pizero which it's selling with a HDD and interface - the Node Zero:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=171736
Kinda part of my point. If I want to buy online its going to be at least $20USD for this wonderful $5 device.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:37 am
by rahlquist
Heater wrote:mattmiller,

Admittedly I have not considered the problems of schools and clubs.
Even when I made my recent Microcenter purchase here in Georgia its posted "One per household" So if you want to do any sort of project that requires two...

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:45 am
by rahlquist
Thanks everyone. I guess the bottom line is the Pi Zero is an anomaly they threw us as a bone. The sad part is the goal of the Pi foundation could be so much better met by making more product available in this case. I understand there are logistics and production issues as its not made on the same production lines as the rest of the Pi's.

Bottom line for me though is I would gladly pay $10 a unit if they would do 2 things, remove my purchase limit and take the extra $5 and provide PiZero to a school. That is assuming they make them available this way through all their authorized sellers so we dont have to pay $19 shipping.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:45 am
by W. H. Heydt
rahlquist wrote:
mikerr wrote:Well it's 2 per day if you order from both http://thepihut.com and http://pimoroni.com

Note that Western Digital now has a supply of pizero which it's selling with a HDD and interface - the Node Zero:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=171736
Kinda part of my point. If I want to buy online its going to be at least $20USD for this wonderful $5 device.
$5 Pi Zero plus about 5 shipping, so $10. And that assumes you're not buying anything else. There have been any number of people who have said that they would be willing to pay $10 for a Pi Zero...and they can, so I'm not sure what the complaint is. Especially since if the Pi Zero was priced at $10, there would be shipping on top of that.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:58 am
by W. H. Heydt
rahlquist wrote:Thanks everyone. I guess the bottom line is the Pi Zero is an anomaly they threw us as a bone. The sad part is the goal of the Pi foundation could be so much better met by making more product available in this case. I understand there are logistics and production issues as its not made on the same production lines as the rest of the Pi's.
Say, what? Where did you get the idea that the Pi Zero isn't made on the same line as other Pis? That they *are* made on the same line as other Pis is part of the problem. They can make only so many Pis (of all types) per day. Sony prefers to make Pi3Bs, Pi2B2s, CM3s, CM1s, even A+ Pis on that line because those all have a higher profit margin. That was why Pi Zeros disappeared about this time last year--the factory was going all out to make enough Pi3Bs for launch and no Pi Zeros were being made.
Bottom line for me though is I would gladly pay $10 a unit if they would do 2 things, remove my purchase limit and take the extra $5 and provide PiZero to a school. That is assuming they make them available this way through all their authorized sellers so we dont have to pay $19 shipping.
To get a Pi Zero, the lowest shipping from Adafruit is $6. From PiHut and Pimoroni it's 4GBP (to the US), and that's near as makes no difference $5. So the cost in the mail for a Pi Zero is...$10. You've just said you'd gladly pay that price, so what exactly in your problem? You can order 3 per day, or 21 per week. If Adafruit is out of stock, then it's "only" 14 per week, but the unit cost is a smidge lower If the price was $10, shipping would be on top of that and you'd *actually* be paying $15 each, so the present situation is *better* than you say that you would "gladly pay". How many are you actually trying to buy?

tl:dr I fail to see a problem here. You can get Pi Zeros for a price you think is just dandy.

Re: Pi Zero order limit redux, beating a dead horse?

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:07 am
by W. H. Heydt
rahlquist wrote:
Heater wrote:mattmiller,

Admittedly I have not considered the problems of schools and clubs.
Even when I made my recent Microcenter purchase here in Georgia its posted "One per household" So if you want to do any sort of project that requires two...
Get a friend--or a relative who doesn't live with you--who doesn't want Pi Zero of his own to come with you. Now if it were me, I live in an extended household and I'd get my daughter or son-in-law to come along. Since the surname is different, how are they to know? If you're paying cash, there is no need to supply an address.

If you're close enough to shop at a MicroCenter, that puts you ahead of most of us. You can get Pi Zeros without paying shipping.

Another point...do you plan ahead? IF you are doing projects on an ongoing basis, why not buy a few Pi Zeros just to keep them on hand for when a project comes along that they're just the thing for...especially if you either get to that MicroCenter on a regular basis, or it's on the way to going somewhere to get to routinely. If Central Computers carried Pi Zeros, I'd stop by every month on my way to the Jam I attend. I might even figure out if there is a second store I could get to without going out of the way on the way back.