Sandros94
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ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:19 am

A fast google search helped me to mount exFAT file system on Raspbian (up to date) on both pi 2 and pi 3, but I would love to see a native support, since now there are a lot of cheap 64/128/256GB sd and flash pen drives that are compatible with Windows OSX and Android.

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:32 am

I presume you did something like:

sudo apt-get install exfat-fuse exfat-utils

to get exFAT support.

Hardly seems onerous. Quite "native" enough for me.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

asavah
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:46 am

Sandros94 wrote:A fast google search helped me to mount exFAT file system on Raspbian (up to date) on both pi 2 and pi 3, but I would love to see a native support, since now there are a lot of cheap 64/128/256GB sd and flash pen drives that are compatible with Windows OSX and Android.
If by "native" you mean in kernel support:
There is no ETA.
And this question should be asked in mainline kernel mailing list.
There is a module source released by Samsung long ago, but AFAIK there were no efforts to mainline it.

EDIT:
There may be licensing/patent restrictions, AFAIK exfat stuff is owned by M$.
You can try and build this module yourself if you find sources able to build for current raspbian kernel,
search github and samsung's opensource site, I remember seeing several versions out there.

EDIT2:
This one https://github.com/dorimanx/exfat-nofuse loooks good, haven't tried to build it myself tho.

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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:22 pm

A simple check on Wikipedia would have given you the main answer.
It is proprietary and Microsoft owns patents on several elements of its design
Patents or licencing mean it won't be hitting the mainline kernel.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

Sandros94
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:53 pm

I didn't think about reading it on the wiki, thanks for all the replys.

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:06 pm

Microsoft is happy to push their IoT stuff via the Raspberry Pi. They adopt Free and Open Source software for Windows 10 (Linux Subsystem for Windows) and so on. I have my doubts as to whether they would like to be part of the community and make exFAT restriction free.

I don't understand why they get space on this forum.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Martin Frezman
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:46 pm

When I first read this thread, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the meaning of "native" was that you could boot from it. I.e., that you could install NOOBS on a exFAT formatted SD card without having to jump through the hoops that are currently necessary (i.e., re-formatting it back to "regular" FAT).

It seems to me that that, if possible, would be a Good Thing.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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rpdom
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:50 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:When I first read this thread, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the meaning of "native" was that you could boot from it. I.e., that you could install NOOBS on a exFAT formatted SD card without having to jump through the hoops that are currently necessary (i.e., re-formatting it back to "regular" FAT).

It seems to me that that, if possible, would be a Good Thing.
No. It would be pointless. exFAT does not support the Linux file attributes that would be required for a properly running system (not without some ugly hacks).

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:56 pm

Booting from FAT?

I think there would be huge problems with file permissions.

What about the other attributes?

As far as I know FAT does not support symbolic links.

I suspect things like mounting drives under directories would be impossible.

We don't want a huge step back to 1980.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

W. H. Heydt
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:04 pm

rpdom wrote:
Martin Frezman wrote:When I first read this thread, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the meaning of "native" was that you could boot from it. I.e., that you could install NOOBS on a exFAT formatted SD card without having to jump through the hoops that are currently necessary (i.e., re-formatting it back to "regular" FAT).

It seems to me that that, if possible, would be a Good Thing.
No. It would be pointless. exFAT does not support the Linux file attributes that would be required for a properly running system (not without some ugly hacks).
For what Martin Frezman says, it would be a reasonable thing. It would just be for starting NOOBS for installation, OS switching and recovery/reinstallation, not actually *running* Linux. Seems to me the issue here--aside from whether or not the ROM bootcode can handle it...and that's a whole 'nother issue--is one of being able to use large SD cards without special reformatting.

Mind you, it wouldn't affect me either way. I only use NOOBS to demonstrate an install for someone having trouble doing so, and haven't done that in a year or more, plus when I need more than 16GB or 32GB at a strecth, I'm inclined to shift to either an SSD or an HDD. So between normally loading an image file (which ignores the the format anyway) and not using large cards, I don't encouter these issues.

Martin Frezman
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:21 pm

OBVIOUSLY, I'm not talking about having the Linux rootfs on FAT. That would be absurd.

Equally OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking about the "boot" partition and, specifically, about being able to install and boot NOOBS on a large card w/o having to do special tricks.

And, finally, equally OBVIOUSLY, none of this will ever affect us smart people here on the board. We're all too smart and sophisticated for any of that. It is a newbie matter. It is a matter of removing one of the obstacles (FAQs) that periodically create traffic on these support boards.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Martin Frezman wrote: And, finally, equally OBVIOUSLY, none of this will ever affect us smart people here on the board. We're all too smart and sophisticated for any of that. It is a newbie matter. It is a matter of removing one of the obstacles (FAQs) that periodically create traffic on these support boards.
I'm not claiming to be smart. I just don't do the things that would cause me to run into the problems because of my own peculiarities (I *think* having a project that will use a couple of CM3L boards makes me peculiar even within the Pi community...).

However, I do see what you're driving at with respect to naive Pi users and NOOBS. That said, before worrying about exFAT support, perhpas we should inquire of the really knowledgeable people whether or not the boot ROM on any of the BCM253x SoCs can actually boot from exFAT even at the Stage 1 level. I have always been under the impression that the initial boot stage (running the VC4 boot processes) was why you couldn't just use an exFAT formatted SD card. If that is the case, it doesn't matter whether or not Linux can handle the format.

Martin Frezman
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:46 pm

It's probably not possible. This does not preclude the possibility that some future version of it (the BCM SOC) could do it.

If you go back and look at how I phrased my initial contribution to this thread, i made no claim either that it was possible or that I myself wanted it to be possible, or anything like that. I just indicated that that was how I initially saw the thread topic.

Otherwise, there's really no good reason for wanting "native" support. The whole Linux Way is "If you need it, and don't have it, it's just an "apt-get" away". I.e., once you're booted up, you're expected to be able to "apt-get" (or the equivalent on non-Debian systems) whatever you need. Since the OP had already figured out how to "apt-get" it, the whole question becomes, in terms of "The Linux Way", moot.
Last edited by Martin Frezman on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

lewmur
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:31 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:OBVIOUSLY, I'm not talking about having the Linux rootfs on FAT. That would be absurd.

Equally OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking about the "boot" partition and, specifically, about being able to install and boot NOOBS on a large card w/o having to do special tricks.

And, finally, equally OBVIOUSLY, none of this will ever affect us smart people here on the board. We're all too smart and sophisticated for any of that. It is a newbie matter. It is a matter of removing one of the obstacles (FAQs) that periodically create traffic on these support boards.
I'm completely lost as to what you're talking about. The FAT partition is tiny and the rest of the card if formatted with EXT4. Why would you want exFat? It is possible, of course, you want an exFat partition, in addition to, the EXT4 partition, but to what purpose?

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rpdom
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:43 pm

lewmur wrote:I'm completely lost as to what you're talking about. The FAT partition is tiny and the rest of the card if formatted with EXT4. Why would you want exFat? It is possible, of course, you want an exFat partition, in addition to, the EXT4 partition, but to what purpose?
The only reason I can see is that SD cards of 64GB and above come with exFAT formatting by default. So if you want to install NOOBS on them you have to jump through a couple of small hoops to get them formatted as FAT32 first.

I don't see that as a major issue and as mentioned before, there may be licensing reasons why that won't be simply done in the next SOC version "OBVIOUSLY" :roll:

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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:44 pm

I'm completely lost as to what you're talking about.
What does that suggest to you? What do you think would be your best path to clearing up your confused state of mind?

Would there be anything I could do to help?
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

klricks
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:51 pm

lewmur wrote:
Martin Frezman wrote:OBVIOUSLY, I'm not talking about having the Linux rootfs on FAT. That would be absurd.

Equally OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking about the "boot" partition and, specifically, about being able to install and boot NOOBS on a large card w/o having to do special tricks.

And, finally, equally OBVIOUSLY, none of this will ever affect us smart people here on the board. We're all too smart and sophisticated for any of that. It is a newbie matter. It is a matter of removing one of the obstacles (FAQs) that periodically create traffic on these support boards.
I'm completely lost as to what you're talking about. The FAT partition is tiny and the rest of the card if formatted with EXT4. Why would you want exFat? It is possible, of course, you want an exFat partition, in addition to, the EXT4 partition, but to what purpose?
As mentioned in the text you quoted this would only apply to people who use NOOBS.
Most SD card >32GB are pre-formatted as exFAT from the manufacture.
So the NOOBs user has to reformat the card as FAT32 before it can be used.
If the bootloader could be made to recognize and use exFAT then the NOOBs user would not have to do the extra formatting step..... that's all...
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated RPiOS Buster w/ Desktop OS.

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:32 pm

Call me old fashioned but I don't see the problem here.

You have an SD card, formatted which ever way, who cares. You put the raspbian image on it. You put the card into your Pi. Bingo it works!

Or am I missing a point here?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

W. H. Heydt
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:46 pm

Heater wrote:Call me old fashioned but I don't see the problem here.

You have an SD card, formatted which ever way, who cares. You put the raspbian image on it. You put the card into your Pi. Bingo it works!

Or am I missing a point here?
I'm afraid you're missing the point. Some of the more naive beginners with Pi use NOOBS rather than a direct image. Since--as far as anyone knows--the VC4 boot ROM cannot read an exFAT file system, if you use a >32GB SD card, the first step has to be reformatting the card to FAT32, and like using win32diskimager, that's a non-starter for some people.

Of course, the real solution may just be to tell anyone who is brand new to using a Pi and wants to use NOOBS is to tell them not to use a card that is over 32GB, and taking that advice would solve their problem.

gregeric
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:53 pm

Looking at the 2837 bootrom through my naive ASCII strings goggles, you see the text "EXFAT".

But that might just mean extra-obese.

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:55 pm

W. H. Heydt

Yep, I'm missing a point. I never understood what NOOBS is for.

What is wrong with a simple raspbian image?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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CarlRJ
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:07 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:Of course, the real solution may just be to tell anyone who is brand new to using a Pi and wants to use NOOBS is to tell them not to use a card that is over 32GB, and taking that advice would solve their problem.
I'd vote for telling them to install Etcher on their PC or Mac, and download the latest Raspbian image, and use Etcher to write it to their SD card, and forget NOOBS. NOOBS has always seemed like a "nice thing to include in the box for the sake of completeness", but a poor choice for novice PI users - unless they specifically know that they want, say, OSMC for a media streaming box, then asking a new user to make an uninformed choice of OS seems decidedly unhelpful. Guide them towards the official supported choice, and let them go get something else if/when they feel sufficiently motivated and know what they're doing.

Heater
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:13 am

Is it really so that a Windows or Mac user cannot put an OS image on an SD card without jumping through hoops and using some dodgy downloaded "SD burner".

If so, perhaps it would be better if the foundation provided a simple download that did nothing but fetch Raspbian and put it on an SD.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

W. H. Heydt
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:53 am

I'm not going to quote the last two posters, but this is directed as a followup to their remarks...

Have neither of you ever met anyone who is afraid to download and install software, or a child who isn't permitted by her parents to do so? These issues are not ones of intelligence, but of ignorance...and ignorance is curable. NOOBS is, by its very nature a "hand holding" operation, which is why pretty much anyone with a triple digit posting history probably doesn't use it, except in specific instances when they might use it deliberately. NOOBS is not targeted at those who are comfortable correctly reformatting an SD card or writing an ISO image to an SD card. It is targeted at people for whom drag-and-drop is about as sophisticated as they get with a computer.

I have met adults who profess not to know how to connect a monitor to a PC, so the bar we're looking at is pretty low.

The trick is to get the naive user up and going, preferably using no additional software loaded to a PC or Mac, and only such tools as they are already comfortable with. By the time such users have come to grips wtil CLI, command line utilities, and all that other stuff the "old timers" use routinely, *then*--maybe--we can get them to write a direct image.

I don't want to sell our naive users short, but they have to start somewhere and I don't think NOOBS would exist if that initial step of writing an image to a card wasn't too steep for some people to deal with right off.

klricks
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Re: ETA fot native exFAT support?

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:58 am

Heater wrote:....
If so, perhaps it would be better if the foundation provided a simple download that did nothing but fetch Raspbian and put it on an SD.
That is how the LibreElec installer works. The same app will download the image and then the user can immediately write the image to the SD card. (No need to format the card first).
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated RPiOS Buster w/ Desktop OS.

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