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simonmcc
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Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:52 pm

I got a pi zero for Christmas, I didn't get one before because I had no project for it, and anyway it looked a bit weird.

Anyway, I have to say I'm extremely impressed. This tiny board is now controlling my garage doors, with only a few extra components, and that got me to thinking - at £4 this actually makes home projects feasible that otherwise might have been too expensive - for example curtain controllers, where you might need multiple instances of the same hardware.

£4 + wifi adapter + relay board + SD card + PSU = cheap wifi enabled thing!! :D

*BUT* you can't really get a pi zero for £4. It costs £6.50 everywhere I can see, assuming you want it delivered. And you can't buy two from anywhere - I find this a bit disappointing - I'd like to buy a few for a few projects.

Why is this?
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hippy
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:07 pm

simonmcc wrote:Why is this?
Pi Zeroes simply aren't produced in enough quantity to satisfy demand and the profit margins are so low that it's not easy to produce them in quantities which will satisfy demand any time soon.

The Foundation is said to have ramped up production to 50,000 a month but they can't currently produce more without damaging the revenue stream from their other Pi variants.

Heater
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:20 pm

You do realize that everything you buy has a huge mark up from manufacturer through supplier. Why should the Pi be any different?
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B.Goode
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:26 pm

A problem in two parts:

"I can't buy one for X USD"

The Raspberry Pi Foundation have previously stated that the worldwide basis for pricing RPF products in USD is to reflect the cost of the bought-in components. If pressed they have always said, sometimes quite close to the headline although I can't find an example to quote, that the headline price is always exclusive of local taxes and delivery.

"I can only buy One PiZero."

@hippy has covered this. There are not enough PiZeros to meet all possible demand. As their attempt to be equitable and allow as many people as possible to experience and benefit from a PiZero as possible the RPF/RPT have asked distributors to apply a one-per-order policy.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:27 pm

simonmcc wrote:I got a pi zero for Christmas, I didn't get one before because I had no project for it, and anyway it looked a bit weird.

Anyway, I have to say I'm extremely impressed. This tiny board is now controlling my garage doors, with only a few extra components, and that got me to thinking - at £4 this actually makes home projects feasible that otherwise might have been too expensive - for example curtain controllers, where you might need multiple instances of the same hardware.

£4 + wifi adapter + relay board + SD card + PSU = cheap wifi enabled thing!! :D

*BUT* you can't really get a pi zero for £4. It costs £6.50 everywhere I can see, assuming you want it delivered. And you can't buy two from anywhere - I find this a bit disappointing - I'd like to buy a few for a few projects.

Why is this?
All Raspberry Pi products are sold in $$$ and always do not include Taxes and Shipping, it has been this way for 5 years.

Regards your gripe, if you had undertaken research you would have found that this subject has been done to death and quite frankly it is becoming BORING.
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simonmcc
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:29 pm

hippy wrote: Pi Zeroes simply aren't produced in enough quantity to satisfy demand and the profit margins are so low that it's not easy to produce them in quantities which will satisfy demand any time soon.

The Foundation is said to have ramped up production to 50,000 a month but they can't currently produce more without damaging the revenue stream from their other Pi variants.
That's quite interesting - I suppose it might damage the 'A' if the zero was more readily available. I don't see myself ever buying an 'A', but definitely a few of the the zeros for the reasons above, and also the '3' because of its processing power, builtin wifi and loads of USB - the 3 is more general purpose, whereas the zero is for more specialised applications IMHO.

Would it really change people's buying habits if the zero was more available?
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simonmcc
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:30 pm

B.Goode wrote:A problem in two parts:
"I can only buy One PiZero."

@hippy has covered this. There are not enough PiZeros to meet all possible demand. As their attempt to be equitable and allow as many people as possible to experience and benefit from a PiZero as possible the RPF/RPT have asked distributors to apply a one-per-order policy.
Ah, so the foundation puts this policy in place - fair enough :)
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simonmcc
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:31 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Regards your gripe, if you had undertaken research you would have found that this subject has been done to death and quite frankly it is becoming BORING.
Sorry, I did try to have a google for it, but I didn't find anything relevant - Thanks for the answers here - I've found it helpful!
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B.Goode
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:37 pm

simonmcc wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Regards your gripe, if you had undertaken research you would have found that this subject has been done to death and quite frankly it is becoming BORING.
Sorry, I did try to have a google for it, but I didn't find anything relevant - Thanks for the answers here - I've found it helpful!
The search facility in these forums is often derided, but in this case searching for "PiZero availability" brings up a whole evening's worth of past discussions...

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:37 pm

simonmcc wrote:
hippy wrote: Pi Zeroes simply aren't produced in enough quantity to satisfy demand and the profit margins are so low that it's not easy to produce them in quantities which will satisfy demand any time soon.

The Foundation is said to have ramped up production to 50,000 a month but they can't currently produce more without damaging the revenue stream from their other Pi variants.
That's quite interesting - I suppose it might damage the 'A' if the zero was more readily available. I don't see myself ever buying an 'A', but definitely a few of the the zeros for the reasons above, and also the '3' because of its processing power, builtin wifi and loads of USB - the 3 is more general purpose, whereas the zero is for more specialised applications IMHO.

Would it really change people's buying habits if the zero was more available?
AIUI it's not so much that the Zero competes with other Pis through hurting sales. It's more that they're all produced on the same lines in a factory in Wales (at least for UK/EU stock), if they dedicated 100% of the time to the Zero no other Pi models could be made.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:43 pm

mfa298 wrote:
simonmcc wrote:
hippy wrote: Pi Zeroes simply aren't produced in enough quantity to satisfy demand and the profit margins are so low that it's not easy to produce them in quantities which will satisfy demand any time soon.

The Foundation is said to have ramped up production to 50,000 a month but they can't currently produce more without damaging the revenue stream from their other Pi variants.
That's quite interesting - I suppose it might damage the 'A' if the zero was more readily available. I don't see myself ever buying an 'A', but definitely a few of the the zeros for the reasons above, and also the '3' because of its processing power, builtin wifi and loads of USB - the 3 is more general purpose, whereas the zero is for more specialised applications IMHO.

Would it really change people's buying habits if the zero was more available?
AIUI it's not so much that the Zero competes with other Pis through hurting sales. It's more that they're all produced on the same lines in a factory in Wales (at least for UK/EU stock), if they dedicated 100% of the time to the Zero no other Pi models could be made.
Also the BCM2835 SoC is shared with the A+ & B+. In time demand for the A+ & B+ will lessen so more Zero's can then be manufactured.
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:46 pm

simonmcc wrote: *BUT* you can't really get a pi zero for £4. It costs £6.50 everywhere I can see, assuming you want it delivered. And you can't buy two from anywhere - I find this a bit disappointing - I'd like to buy a few for a few projects.
Depends on how you define the price. The times that I have ordered Pi Zeros from UK suppliers, the price has been...4GBP. Shipping is never included in prices. The problem comes when *all* you order is a Pi Zero and the whole shipping charge applies to just that one item. If you order more items at the same time, the shipping charges per item are generally lower.
Why is this?
Because your analysis of the utility is correct. There are many projects that become feasible--or more feasible--economically by using a really inexpensive computer. As a result, pretty much everyone who is aware of the Pi Zero and has projects for which it would apply wants them. So...much demand, limited supply. For a "normal" product, that would result in rising prices until demand slacked off to match supply and/or the increased profit margins made increasing the supply economically feasible. However, the RPF strongly believes in its pricing model, so you *can* get a Pi Zero for $5 (or local equivalent), but the supply/demand mismatch continues.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:10 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:All Raspberry Pi products are sold in $$$
Except they aren't. It keeps getting said but just repeating it doesn't make it true. In the UK they are sold in GBP and the price they sell for does not always reflect the USD-GBP exchange rate.

At present, buying a Zero from The Pi Hut or Pimoroni at £4 ( excluding P&P and VAT ) is less than $5, just $4.85.

And what does "$5" really mean ? $5 now, $5 last week, $5 next week. Should a Zero be sold for the GBP equivalent of what $5 is now or what $5 was when the Zero was manufactured ? That is why there is Trading Standards legislation on selling in dollars in the UK and why UK sellers usually sell in GBP rather than USD prices.

The cited dollar price is really nothing more than a marketing slogan, not a universal selling price.
simonmcc wrote:That's quite interesting - I suppose it might damage the 'A' if the zero was more readily available ...
As mfa298 says above; it's a matter of production capacity rather than anything else. Making more Pi Zeroes would mean producing fewer higher profit Pi variants. This would reduce the Foundation's revenue stream.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:57 pm

simonmcc wrote: That's quite interesting - I suppose it might damage the 'A' if the zero was more readily available. I don't see myself ever buying an 'A', but definitely a few of the the zeros for the reasons above, and also the '3' because of its processing power, builtin wifi and loads of USB - the 3 is more general purpose, whereas the zero is for more specialised applications IMHO.
The tension between Pi Zero and A+ is probably going to change quite a bit when--as we are told is intended--the Pi3A is launched. That will give the A-series the same SoC as the Pi3B. It will also mean that the Pi Zero will be the only Pi form factor that *can't* run a 64-bit system (I'm counting in the not quite yet launched CM3/CM3L). That may shift a few use cases in favor of the Pi3A since it will mean that you get more than just a bigger PCB and some power regulation.
Would it really change people's buying habits if the zero was more available?
Hard to say. Other than having some of the less popular/well known Pis to take to Jams and such, I tend to get Pis to match the requirements of the project (for some very loose values of the term "project"). That's why I intend to get several Pi2B2s this year. They give a nice--if modest--boost over the Pi2B but are otherwise just great for one of my main uses for Pis. I'm also planning to get some CM3L boards, if certain other conditions turn out right.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:05 pm

Are we still waiting for that elusive Pi3A+...

Profit margins for the foundation...
Depends what they get from them, i'm sure the profit margins for the 2/3/A get swallowed up by RS/Farnell et all.
Does anyone actually have evidence of the profit margin that RPT/F recieve, so far it is all hearsay that I've read.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:45 pm

bensimmo wrote:Are we still waiting for that elusive Pi3A+...
Yes, because Eben Upton said that the Pi3A would launch *after* the CM3...and the CM3 hasn't launched yet. If--as is possible--the CM3/CM3L/NEC CM3-16 launch this month, one might well wonder if the Pi3A will launch on the 5th anniversary of the original Pi launch.
Profit margins for the foundation...
Depends what they get from them, i'm sure the profit margins for the 2/3/A get swallowed up by RS/Farnell et all.
Does anyone actually have evidence of the profit margin that RPT/F recieve, so far it is all hearsay that I've read.
As I understand it, the RPF receives a license royalty on the Pis sold by RS and Farnell. One would presume that NEC will also pay royalties to the RPF for CM3-16 sales.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:47 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:All Raspberry Pi products are sold in $$$
Except they aren't. It keeps getting said but just repeating it doesn't make it true. In the UK they are sold in GBP and the price they sell for does not always reflect the USD-GBP exchange rate.
I actually mean from the from the factory they are priced in $$$, not the retail pricing :roll:
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Belatedly I have found the RPF source of information I wanted to quote. It was in the FAQs on the main Raspberry Pi website: https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#topBuying

See points 2 and 4.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:20 pm

B.Goode wrote:Belatedly I have found the RPF source of information I wanted to quote. It was in the FAQs on the main Raspberry Pi website: https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#topBuying

See points 2 and 4.
Yep the FAQ seems to cover all bases..... ;)
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:31 pm

One thing not mentioned so far, the Pi is manufactured using parts bought in $, so having a price to sale in $ means there is less influence from exchange rates.
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:45 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:I actually mean from the from the factory they are priced in $$$, not the retail pricing :roll:
And your evidence for this ... ?

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:53 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:I actually mean from the from the factory they are priced in $$$, not the retail pricing :roll:
And your evidence for this ... ?
Ummm...the FAQ as linked to above?

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:01 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:I actually mean from the from the factory they are priced in $$$, not the retail pricing :roll:
And your evidence for this ... ?
Obviously you missed the subsequent posts after my response to yourself :D
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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:03 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Obviously you missed the subsequent posts after my response to yourself :D
I did. It also does say what dollar prices the Pi are. So I guess everyone can sue when sold a Pi at a GBP prices higher than the USD price ;)

It must be a nightmare all round when Sony pay their staff and bills in pounds but charge for Pi's in dollars.

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Re: Pi Zero - Brilliant - but,,,

Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:16 pm

hippy wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:Obviously you missed the subsequent posts after my response to yourself :D
I did. It also does say what dollar prices the Pi are. So I guess everyone can sue when sold a Pi at a GBP prices higher than the USD price ;)

It must be a nightmare all round when Sony pay their staff and bills in pounds but charge for Pi's in dollars.
You are confused between factory pricing when bought ie order placed and the retail price when offered for retail sale, the 2 may not always appear to be the same, due to currency fluctuations..


I would hope that Sony being a Worldwide Company would not be confused...
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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