User avatar
CarlRJ
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:18 pm

ejolson wrote:It doesn't have GB Ethernet, breadboards, LEDs, wires or switches but definitely satisfies the high quality and official categories.
Kids plugging together their first computer absolutely do not need GB Ethernet. And, where an Arduino is basically useless without some LEDs, wires, and switches, a Raspberry Pi is not - there's a lot of useful things to learn before one "needs" to start plugging in LEDs and wires and switches. That kit contains everything one needs to get started, short of an HDMI-capable monitor or TV (which those early computers didn't come with either).

This thread seems to have pivoted from "the Pi is mortally wounded by not having GB Ethernet" to "there needs to be studies done so that kids will be able to learn with the Pi". Well, the OP can go ahead and conduct those vitally necessary studies... meanwhile kids will keep actually learning with the Pi as it is. It's not like the Foundation is unfamiliar with the concepts of teaching kids about computers. It's what they do.

timrowledge
Posts: 1345
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:12 pm
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact: Website

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:47 pm

Heater wrote:Such deep pedagogical study has been going on for fifty years or so. See Alan Kay and Smalltalk, or Seymour Papert and Logo.

Five decades of deep pedagogical study has not gotten us very far now has it?
Sigh, sadly true.

We're still working away at it though and it has at least brought us Scratch and EToys etc. I think a bizarrely silly part of the problem is the tendency for people look at the work and go "ooh, this is good, Now all I have to do is invent another half-arsed attempt at a fake Smalltalk but that looks like C/BASIC/Pascal to re-implement it all in", followed by failing to do any of it well. Mentioning no names - mainly because whilst the list may start with Python/Ruby/C++ it goes on for so very long.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4574
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:50 pm

Do the studies mean we can embed PiZeros into the kids to monitor them?

Heater
Posts: 15832
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:29 pm

timrowledge
Sigh, sadly true.
Smalltalk, Logo, etc aside I was also thinking of a later era. The Early 1980's and the BBC Computer Literacy Project. There was so much enthusiasm around all of that. Hardware, software, TV series, educational material, the works.

Remember the "BBC Domesday Project"?

All that computer literacy buzz fizzled out and faded away. So sad.

About that Smalltalk thing...

Perhaps it's great and all, but I'm sure it was not usable on the early 8 bit machines that were available, cheap and popular at the time. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

For sure it was not an option on the radar signal processing systems I was involved in in the early 1980's. Or anything else much since.

Even today kids can program tiny devices like the Arduino in C++. Could they use Smalltalk? I suspect not.

Can Smalltalk be used on tiny devices like the STM32F4? Like C++ or even Javascript can be: https://www.espruino.com/

I'm a bit surprised you throw C++ into the same bucket as Python, Ruby and the like.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
Posts: 15832
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:31 pm

bensimmo,
Do the studies mean we can embed Pi Zeros into the kids to monitor them?
Ha, perhaps the kids will use their Pi Zeros to keep track of what their computer ignorant parents are up to. :)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

User avatar
CarlRJ
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:59 pm

bensimmo wrote:Do the studies mean we can embed PiZeros into the kids to monitor them?
Wow! The required syringe is going to have a heck of a needle on it. ;)

levelcrow
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:04 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:07 pm

I think we should all take a moment to remember that Eben Upton and the Raspberry Pi Foundation have strong historical ties to Cambridge - an institution on even footing with the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Oxford.

I sometimes feel like the foundation doesn't get enough credit. They're all very talented people; there's a reason why the Raspberry Pi is the number one single board computer in the world despite being based out of a charity.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12424
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:06 pm

Heater wrote: Smalltalk, Logo, etc aside I was also thinking of a later era.
That reminds me of one of the most persistent (and, ultimately, futile) ideas I saw in my 40+ year career as a programmer. Companies kept coming up with programming languages that were ostensibly designed to allow non-programmers to get the data they wanted out of systems without having to go to the IT department to get a programmer to write what it took get what the user wanted. The idea of "programming without needing a programmer" goes all the way back to COBOL and has *never* worked in practice. COBOL, RPG, Mark IV, DataAnalyzer, SQL.... The list is endless and every time the end user wants something that is non-trivial (and often when it *is* trivial), they want to borrow a programmer to write it, no matter how "user friendly" the language-of-the-day is.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12424
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:07 pm

levelcrow wrote:I think we should all take a moment to remember that Eben Upton and the Raspberry Pi Foundation have strong historical ties to Cambridge - an institution on even footing with the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Oxford.

I sometimes feel like the foundation doesn't get enough credit. They're all very talented people; there's a reason why the Raspberry Pi is the number one single board computer in the world despite being based out of a charity.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is *because* the RPF is a charity is a significant factor behind the success of the Pi.

ejolson
Posts: 5177
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:49 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Heater wrote: Smalltalk, Logo, etc aside I was also thinking of a later era.
That reminds me of one of the most persistent (and, ultimately, futile) ideas I saw in my 40+ year career as a programmer. Companies kept coming up with programming languages that were ostensibly designed to allow non-programmers to get the data they wanted out of systems without having to go to the IT department to get a programmer to write what it took get what the user wanted. The idea of "programming without needing a programmer" goes all the way back to COBOL and has *never* worked in practice. COBOL, RPG, Mark IV, DataAnalyzer, SQL.... The list is endless and every time the end user wants something that is non-trivial (and often when it *is* trivial), they want to borrow a programmer to write it, no matter how "user friendly" the language-of-the-day is.
The current trend is business information dashboards that allow non-programmers to click with a mouse to visualize the data without any pretense of programming. Whether the idea is futile depends on your point of view. In the end decisions get made, money gets spent and this is usually the only assessment on the success of a project. Who knows the quality of the decisions until ten years later--who can tell whether the money was well spent either way.

Programming languages designed for non-programmers who don't want to learn programming might be very different in nature than programming languages designed to teach kids computer science.

User avatar
CarlRJ
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:50 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:Companies kept coming up with programming languages that were ostensibly designed to allow non-programmers to get the data they wanted out of systems without having to go to the IT department to get a programmer to write what it took get what the user wanted.
I fondly remember the first time I was shown a program that we were quite earnestly told was going to replace us programmers in a year or two. That was around 1982. A application long since forgotten running on an Apple II. Our response then was "uh huh, well, we'll believe it when we see it." Still hasn't come about.

mfa298
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:18 am

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:21 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
levelcrow wrote:I think we should all take a moment to remember that Eben Upton and the Raspberry Pi Foundation have strong historical ties to Cambridge - an institution on even footing with the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Oxford.

I sometimes feel like the foundation doesn't get enough credit. They're all very talented people; there's a reason why the Raspberry Pi is the number one single board computer in the world despite being based out of a charity.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is *because* the RPF is a charity is a significant factor behind the success of the Pi.
I'd agree that it's been a significant factor in the success. I don't think charity status is required to make it successful but the ethos that status creates helps a lot.

User avatar
PeterO
Posts: 5828
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:54 am

CarlRJ wrote:I fondly remember the first time I was shown a program that we were quite earnestly told was going to replace us programmers in a year or two. That was around 1982. A application long since forgotten running on an Apple II. Our response then was "uh huh, well, we'll believe it when we see it." Still hasn't come about.
Maybe it was this ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_One_(software)

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

DarkSchneider
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:39 am

jamesh wrote:Almost official books.....

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/office-su ... 6#products

So, one by Eben himself, one by Alex Bradbury (who works a lot on official pi stuff). And of course there is this one http://www.alltopbooks.com/adventures-i ... 12990.html by Carrie-anne Philbin (who is now Bradbury I beleive, so defo. keeping it in the family) who works at Raspberry Pi (head of education?)

How much more official do you need?
The Adventures in Raspberry Pi looks impressive. Also the Raspberry Pi For Dummies, 2nd edition by Sean McManus and Learning Python with Raspberry Pi by Alex Bradbury could be a good addition.
As said I think the RPi is on the way, but what I feel is some lack of organization. The first was the MagPi, not good for the purpose but good as addition, then some books on Amazon that looking at reviews say clearly not good for learning programming, and now these books that look good for the purpose, but many people even ignore they exist.

That is the same shop I get the RPi material, but the spanish one.
http://es.rs-online.com/web/generalDisp ... aspberrypi
I now notice they have an excellent starter kit:
http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/kits-de-d ... r/8968119/
But, is the book translated? No, it says "only in english".
http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/libros/9076497/

Not sure if the starter pack was available before, the search never got that result. But well, now it is. It's obvious we miss translations, and it doesn't requires much resources, allowing expanding much the educational purposes.

Also, currently the "tape" to save your works could be the pendrives, so if you have to restore the OS (nothing strange) you don't lose your programs. Then I noticed the pendrives, usually formatted in FAT32 by default, are mounted as read-only. People with knowledge can remount or format it with EXT filesystem, but it should be more friendly for noobs, mount the FAT32 filesystem with read-write permissions.
And for extraction, with the eject icon at top right, I see that the SD card (the OS one) can be extracted but the pendrive is grayed and cannot be extracted if not umount the filesystem. That should be more friendly too.

Then I think that with only a few tweaks and organization the educational can reach much further. But they must be done, they will not be done by themselves. So close but never achieved.
ejolson wrote: Programming languages designed for non-programmers who don't want to learn programming might be very different in nature than programming languages designed to teach kids computer science.
That is why I don't like much the Scratch, "programming" with much already done and not typing. IMO Python is a good (best IMO) option for the second one. It looks like the most similar to old BASIC: it runs in interpreter mode, but also can create programs, and it seems much versatile to learn at different levels, we have variables, arrays, and even classes.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4574
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:54 am

Scraych has variable and whatnots, it just pictorial.
Programming logic is what they are learning and if it keeps their interest longer than typing lots of words then all is good.
Of course you could always install whichever old basic you like and give them your old book.

I do agree Pixel could do with more helping hands in it's setup and layout and getting started the Pi old timers none educational user people will complain too, for the clutter they don't want.
Preinstalled PDF and website would be nice. Hard to get the internet if you don't know how or just cannot. Luckily Adafruit and others have a handy save as PDF/single page, we use that a lot.
Shame the RPF teaching website has no such option.
Maybe they could create them offline as an apt-get -able bundle.


That kit has been available for a few months now. RS is not the best place to look for books, Amazon has the latest revisions of each.
As for translated I don't know, somebody has been translating MagPi into some other languages. Books that would be up to the publishers?

Anyways, no mods, no way off pulling all this Off-Topic stuff into another thread?

Heater
Posts: 15832
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:15 am

PeterO,
The Last One was heavily advertised as the last program you will ever need. Because it wrote programs for you right?

What amused me was that it was soon followed up by "The Last One Version 2"

:)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26436
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:24 am

DarkSchneider wrote:
jamesh wrote:Almost official books.....

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/office-su ... 6#products

So, one by Eben himself, one by Alex Bradbury (who works a lot on official pi stuff). And of course there is this one http://www.alltopbooks.com/adventures-i ... 12990.html by Carrie-anne Philbin (who is now Bradbury I beleive, so defo. keeping it in the family) who works at Raspberry Pi (head of education?)

How much more official do you need?
The Adventures in Raspberry Pi looks impressive. Also the Raspberry Pi For Dummies, 2nd edition by Sean McManus and Learning Python with Raspberry Pi by Alex Bradbury could be a good addition.
As said I think the RPi is on the way, but what I feel is some lack of organization. The first was the MagPi, not good for the purpose but good as addition, then some books on Amazon that looking at reviews say clearly not good for learning programming, and now these books that look good for the purpose, but many people even ignore they exist.

That is the same shop I get the RPi material, but the spanish one.
http://es.rs-online.com/web/generalDisp ... aspberrypi
I now notice they have an excellent starter kit:
http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/kits-de-d ... r/8968119/
But, is the book translated? No, it says "only in english".
http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/libros/9076497/

Not sure if the starter pack was available before, the search never got that result. But well, now it is. It's obvious we miss translations, and it doesn't requires much resources, allowing expanding much the educational purposes.

Also, currently the "tape" to save your works could be the pendrives, so if you have to restore the OS (nothing strange) you don't lose your programs. Then I noticed the pendrives, usually formatted in FAT32 by default, are mounted as read-only. People with knowledge can remount or format it with EXT filesystem, but it should be more friendly for noobs, mount the FAT32 filesystem with read-write permissions.
And for extraction, with the eject icon at top right, I see that the SD card (the OS one) can be extracted but the pendrive is grayed and cannot be extracted if not umount the filesystem. That should be more friendly too.

Then I think that with only a few tweaks and organization the educational can reach much further. But they must be done, they will not be done by themselves. So close but never achieved.
ejolson wrote: Programming languages designed for non-programmers who don't want to learn programming might be very different in nature than programming languages designed to teach kids computer science.
That is why I don't like much the Scratch, "programming" with much already done and not typing. IMO Python is a good (best IMO) option for the second one. It looks like the most similar to old BASIC: it runs in interpreter mode, but also can create programs, and it seems much versatile to learn at different levels, we have variables, arrays, and even classes.
There is constant tweaking going on, the RPF do have a large educational department! Lots of time spent on curricula etc, along with constant development by the trading arm on things like Pixel. I'll be able to report more next year, as I expect to know more about it, hoping to work on that stuff!

Scratch is BRILLIANT for primary age children just starting with programming - children of that age work better pictorially. Not so great as you get older, but that's what Python etc is for.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

DarkSchneider
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:26 pm

bensimmo wrote: Anyways, no mods, no way off pulling all this Off-Topic stuff into another thread?
That would be good. The main problem is how to "transfer" the infor already here about the topic.
But maybe creating its own thread, and then each one coping the info from here that thinks could be beneficial it could be affordable.
jamesh wrote: Scratch is BRILLIANT for primary age children just starting with programming - children of that age work better pictorially. Not so great as you get older, but that's what Python etc is for.
Agree with that. For learning the program flow and others Scratch is great.
But the earlier going for a typing platform, the better.
With old-computers and BASIC even 8-years old kids could afford it. More impressive because computing was something new for most people. With something like this:
Image
Translated is "BASIC for children".

About moving the topic, if everyone is agree we could move the info to a new thread.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4574
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:02 pm

I was meaning is there a way mods can select, split and merge to a new thread. I know some forum software allows that.

More to keep the ethernet readable.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26436
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:07 pm

bensimmo wrote:I was meaning is there a way mods can select, split and merge to a new thread. I know some forum software allows that.

More to keep the ethernet readable.
I could do, but it's Xmas (almost), and I am having a massive attack of lethargy. If there is something specific you want to talk about, just start a new thread, with the first post explaining exactly what you are on about.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12424
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:55 pm

Heater wrote:PeterO,
The Last One was heavily advertised as the last program you will ever need. Because it wrote programs for you right?

What amused me was that it was soon followed up by "The Last One Version 2"

:)
I once did a project of writing a program generator....in Oracle's PL/SQL. I got it working but I'm sure what the company I was working for ever actually did with it. I think it falls into the category of "you can write any program in any language if you try hard enough."

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12424
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
bensimmo wrote:I was meaning is there a way mods can select, split and merge to a new thread. I know some forum software allows that.

More to keep the ethernet readable.
I could do, but it's Xmas (almost), and I am having a massive attack of lethargy. If there is something specific you want to talk about, just start a new thread, with the first post explaining exactly what you are on about.
Sudden attack by Newton's First Law of Motion?

ejolson
Posts: 5177
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:05 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:I think it falls into the category of "you can write any program in any language if you try hard enough."
Try writing it in Scratch and I think you will be surprised.

It would appear children are taught to use word processors as early as age 7. If keyboards are fine at that age for writing stories, why not for writing programs? Just like the ability to hold a pencil is useful for many things, so are typing skills.

Except that it is not easy to print a Scratch program out on a paper for others to read, Scratch doesn't seem any more graphical than the indenting used in other programming languages. For what it's worth, hand-drawn flowcharts are more graphical. There are many who promote Scratch as an introduction to programming; at the same time it is widely acknowledged that students who start with Scratch will have to start over with a different language later. I've heard the opinion that a week is enough for Scratch, yet others seem to teach it over years. Very few teach multiple years of flowcharting.

However, the real issue in regards to this thread is whether Scratch fully supports gigabit networking speeds.

Heater
Posts: 15832
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:20 pm

ejolson
However, the real issue in regards to this thread is whether Scratch fully supports gigabit networking speeds.
I hope so. We need to be able to scratch as fast as possible.

:)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

timrowledge
Posts: 1345
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:12 pm
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact: Website

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:35 am

Heater wrote: About that Smalltalk thing...

Perhaps it's great and all, but I'm sure it was not usable on the early 8 bit machines that were available, cheap and popular at the time. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Well not really on 8-bit machines, although a colleague did in fact have a Smalltalk of sorts running on an Apple 2. Remember that 16 bit machines were available not long after 1980 (I had probably the first PC AT in Europe as I was an IBM Research fellow at the time) and we had Smalltalk/V and so on running on DOS. And of course it wasn't much after that that we did the ARM port for Acorn and then Active Book.
Heater wrote:For sure it was not an option on the radar signal processing systems I was involved in in the early 1980's. Or anything else much since.
I'll guess that you shouldn't say too much about those, just as I shouldn't say too much about the related systems that did, in fact, have Smalltalk components.
Heater wrote:Even today kids can program tiny devices like the Arduino in C++. Could they use Smalltalk? I suspect not.
We've talked somewhat about this on other threads, and yes, an Arduino in most cases would not be a great target machine. The ARM based Arduinos may well be a different story and the ESP32 is, as we've covered, a potential customer.
Heater wrote:Can Smalltalk be used on tiny devices like the STM32F4? Like C++ or even Javascript can be: https://www.espruino.com/
Again, the memory is a bit tight but if someone wanted it badly enough, yes I could make a Smalltalk for those. I don't think it would be a full development environment image though.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

Return to “General discussion”