sylvan
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:41 pm

Quote from sharparrow on December 8, 2011, 20:01
If you haven\'t heard of Linux you are an idot!
IDOT -- Illinois Department of Transportation

iDot -- Incremental Dot Viewer, developed for use with the SpinSpider software tool for automatically generating state diagrams from Promela programs for the Spin model checker

Or perhaps the most popular definition at the Urban Dictionary:
A person that comes onto a message board or enters a chat room with the sole intention of insulting its members. This person then goes on to demonstrate their stupidity by spelling idiot as idot and moron as moran.

Chris
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:56 pm

Call me single minded but WHY would you really want windows on something new?

Its a given that the main use of R-PI will be education, to be specific actually teaching. Lets say Windows 8 would work on R-PI out of the box, that means Microsoft get their closed source Operating System onto another device and tightens its grip. You cant open windows up and tinker, learning how to OS works and improving it, thats why I feel R-PI should be soly Linux , FreeBSD ect.

Why give them another Windows Computer which they program ON, when you can give them a Computer which they can program. Dont like the GUI, remove it, change it...

Theres always the bottom line also, M$ would want a cut!. $20 R-pi quickly turns into a $80 r-pi when you have to buy a licence.

nvoid82
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:54 pm

@ sylvan

Robot C. We use it on my robotics team, and my only x86 computer is a desktop at home that is not very useful for on the fly debugging, and all of my other computers are ppc g3s. I had a plan to make an ultra-portable tablet with the pi, and if it can possibly run robot c at all, it would be extremely useful. I used to run it via virtual box on my Ibook, but running 10.4 and virtual box winxp on 256mg with a dyeing battery is no fun.

sylvan
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:23 am

Quote from nvoid82 on December 8, 2011, 21:54Robot C. We use it on my robotics team, and my only x86 computer is a desktop at home that is not very useful for on the fly debugging, and all of my other computers are ppc g3s. I had a plan to make an ultra-portable tablet with the pi, and if it can possibly run robot c at all, it would be extremely useful. I used to run it via virtual box on my Ibook, but running 10.4 and virtual box winxp on 256mg with a dyeing battery is no fun.
I\'m not familiar with Robot C (just googled it), but if you are saying you run ubuntu 10.4, virtualbox, winxp, and Robot C on a PPC IBook with 256mb of ram, then I suspect you could do the same on the R-Pi. I cannot predict the relative performance of virtualbox on your IBook vs. the R-Pi. I suspect neither is great and the R-Pi is likely not going to be better.

Ideally for best performance the vendor would provide a custom app for ARM6 Linux, but good luck with that. It wouldn\'t be too hard if they already had an x86 linux app, but where they are currently Windows only then the hurdle is pretty steep.

You might want to google \"Windows XP Performance Edition\" for tips how to improve the performance of your WinXP virtual machine. It is amazing how much fat can be trimmed out of WinXP when you don\'t need the extra functionality.

Or you could buy a new battery for your iBook. Also note that doubling the ram (512mb) would be a huge improvement. Doubling it again (1G) would also help but probably not as much as the first doubling.

allaun
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:10 am

Quote from nvoid82 on December 8, 2011, 17:20
Could something like Darwine work on the raspberry pi? Last time I checked, they had managed to get some windows programs working on ppc without emulation, but stopped because byte swapping would be too difficult. Since x86 and ARM are both little endian architectures (I think), would Darwine for the pi be reasonable?
Thought I would direct you to this page. http://wiki.winehq.org/ARM

jamesh
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:25 am

Quote from sharparrow on December 8, 2011, 20:01
If you haven\'t heard of Linux you are an idot!
Ironic, then, that you misspelled \'Idiot\'.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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carlosfm
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:44 am

I must say this, at the risk of being shot.
Stay clear of M$ programming languages and browsers... and OSs!
They change everything with each new version and then back to programming to support the new version.
Why would people want to put proprietary bloat on their RPis, beats me.
Do you Pi?

carlosfm
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:01 am

This whole discussion about Windows on the RPi does not make any sense to me.
Microsoft software is PAYED for, it\'s not free.
Why would you pay 20x the price of a Pi to put an M$ OS, M$ Office and fill it with M$ software?
Or do you get all this for free?
You pirates!
Do you Pi?

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abishur
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:45 pm

Well carl, ultimately, there\'s just no accounting for taste ;) And a lot of it has to do with your comfort zone. People are used to windows, they don\'t mind paying the money for it (though thanks to student programs I\'ve yet to pay for a copy of windows!) I can understand the desire to keep windows over having to learn a new OS, but I\'d also caution that those who try to brute force it onto the pi (especially via emulation) are in all probability going to be disappoint by its lack of speed.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

Avoncliff
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:31 pm

Just found some original Windows3.1 floppies, now all I need is an 286 emulator for the ARM and it could fly 8-)

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riffraff
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:12 pm

DON\'T GET ME STARTED >(
If you had a trillion dollars what would you do with it? Better yet, what could the Foundation do with it? That\'s MSFT revenues for the last decade. Does your WinPC do anything significantly different today than it did in 2000? I\'m not saying \"faster\" or \"prettier\" or with more bells, whistles, cloud drives or other crap, does it do anything radically different than it did a decade ago? MS might be a huge moneymaker for investors, but it\'s a boat anchor around the neck of innovation and has done far more harm to the industry than good.

I think the objective of this project is to create more programmers, not more Microserfs. Please be a part of the solution and leave Windows out of it.

carlosfm
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:47 pm

Zing! :')
Do you Pi?

obarthelemy
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:49 am

I\'ll agree that MS has not contributed much recently, they seem to be in a consolidation / lock-in phase, and to have issues transitioning from a technology-driven to a marketing-driven IT landscape, especially on the consumer side. On the other hand, they have not really hindered anyone much either. They even gave money to Novell (who wasted it) and Apple (who didn\'t) when both were in dire straits, and MS needed competition to avoid break up. Plus looking back, MS\'s mindset is a lot more open than today\'s top dog\'s Apple.
It\'s a bit easy to blame MS for everything. What has Linux / OSS done in the same time apart from building a ivory tower where hackers talk to other hackers with total disregard for mere users ? The most innovative company has arguably been Apple, who are very proprietary to start with, and will turn even more so as they run out of segments to express their main idea, which is to make IT stuff socially desirable, and easy to use.
You can do any language on a Windows PC. MS\'s own are not even that bad as languages go (or do you find Java less clunky than C# ?). Windows is not iOS, you *are* free to do whatever you want on it.

Oxwivi
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:12 am

Please don\'t take this thread down to hell in MS vs FLOSS flame-wars. This thread was originally meant to explain yer regular Windows users why it won\'t work on R-Pi.

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Burngate
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:33 pm

The Archimedes came with (or maybe it was available) !pcEm, an emulator for the 186. The last one I can find is:
http://www.apdl.co.uk/riscworld/volume3 ... /index.htm
it\'s probably only 26 bit, but a search might find something that could be worked with!

tufty
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:23 pm

Quote from Oxwivi on December 10, 2011, 07:12
Please don\'t take this thread down to hell in MS vs FLOSS flame-wars. This thread was originally meant to explain yer regular Windows users why it won\'t work on R-Pi.
Shame it was full of half-truths, misinformation and faulty thinking, then.

It\'s pretty simple, really:

As I see it, Pi isn\'t tied to any software platform. It\'s tied to an ideal. That it runs Linux is a totally pragmatic decision; the code is already there. That that code is \"open\" is neither here nor there (after all, significant parts of Pi under Linux are \"closed\").

\"Windows\" (as generally known by the populace) won\'t run on the Pi.

\"Windows CE\" (or whatever you want to call it) will have no problems running on the Pi, should someone take the time to port it. Doing so would be, at least IMO, largely a waste of time; it brings little or nothing to the table that advances the ideal to which Pi is tied. It certainly won\'t bring $INSERT_FAVOURITE_WINDOWS_APP_HERE.

Pi not being tied to Redmond may well help \"the ideal\", as it may well take control out of the hands of the money men, and put it into the hands of educators.

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riffraff
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:45 am

@obarthelemy

Primary harm that I refer to is the leave no enemy behind strategy MS indulged itself in during the late \'80\'s / early \'90\'s. If you were a 3rd party developer with a promising IP that intrigued or threatened mighty MS, their attorneys would consult their Magic 8 Ball to decide whether you were ripe for a buyout, leveraged buyout, patent infringement lawsuit, etc., etc. Any way, you were doomed.

Witness the recent \"secret negotiations\" with Android vendors - the leopard doesn\'t seem to change it\'s spots: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... nt-licence

I like what Victor Xu said though: \"But we have 65,000 patents worldwide too. We have enough to protect our interests.\"

I agree with the \"Linux / Ivory Tower\" assessment, however to date, most open-source commercial entries into the desktop or laptop markets have simply been Wintel machines with some flavor of Linux installed. They didn\'t generate a lot of enthusiasm as there was no appreciable difference in price to simply upgrade the device to Win XP.

It will be interesting to see what happens after RasPi builds a significant library of ARM software. It wouldn\'t shock me to see a rash of Commodore/Spectrum style keyboard-to-TV boxes with ARM cores to capitalize on it. Now if MS considers Android phone/tablets a threat, I can\'t imagine how the feces will fly if the market is flooded with sub $99 toy PC\'s with virtually all of the features of a Wintel Desktop. =)

BTW, I surely have no love for Apple. They are even more ill behaved. Plus, it has always amazed me how they\'ve cultivated such a following in the liberal/green crowd and have never made a green product.

gladoscc
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:59 am

Quote from tufty on December 10, 2011, 21:23
It certainly won\'t bring $INSERT_FAVOURITE_WINDOWS_APP_HERE.
returnGenericInsultAboutThePHPProgrammingLanguage();

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riffraff
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:19 am

@obarthelemy / tufty / Oxwivi
forgive me if I\'m passionate on the subject, but I do believe that it is a serious concern if RasPi experimenters are attempting to port Win CE (if even possible) , or otherwise mucking about in Redmond\'s pond. Given their historic predilection for litigation, It would be a great shame if the Foundation\'s efforts were to be thwarted by a series of injunctions. I\'m not sure that it\'s not entirely possible that they would see the project itself as a threat to their market dominance and pull some sort of stunt anyway. =\\

Oxwivi
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:52 am

@riffraff, I tried to word is simply as possible that the Windows you want and the applications you want to run on it won\'t work. If you accurately explain whatever I said so that even someone who does nothing but Facebook on computers can understand, you are welcome to post it. I\'ll edit it into my OP.

For the record, I don\'t like Windows. I\'ve grown accustomed to the flexibility and power of Linux-based distros. I don\'t want to tell people to run Windows, I want to explain why it\'s not worth to run Windows on R-Pi.

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riffraff
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:07 am

@Oxwivi
I\'m not particularly concerned about the Windows internet terminal crowd. Give them (my wife) a cleverly configured desktop (Status bar moved to bottom with clock on right, application launcher properly configured and labeled \"Start\") and it might be a while before they suspect somethings up . I\'m just leery of some wag violating his EULA and bringing down the Wrath of Redmond. Trust me, that\'s not a comfortable place to be. I used to attend monthly meetings with the owner of a small network software firm. When WFW was released, he made some minor changes to his product to ensure compatibility with MS networking protocols. They gave him a gentle bump starting with a cease and desist letter and a few threats. His attorney\'s fees began taking a significant chunk of his budget and he just gave up and folded.

C
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:29 pm

I'm sorry for coming in a bit late, but still, my two (euro)cents.

I don't get why anyone is concerned (i.e. making a fuss) about others porting Windows (let it be CE or to R-Pi. It seems more than anything else people are just jealous?

As for why would anyone do this, there are _plenty_ of good reasons; just to remind you all, there are millions of embedded devices running Windows CE (with just as many applications) perfectly well - while it is rarely used as a full featured desktop operating system, there are still many good uses (to many to list here) for it - and not to forget, with its small size, price and power consumption, the R-Pi seems just as (if not even more) suitable for various embedded devices than for desktop/workstation replacement.

Last but not least, the development on .NET platform (of course supported on the ARM architecture) is definitely among the one offering developers the best experience.

Note that in my post I didn't do any comparison against GNU/Linux at all as I just wanted to state the reasoning why someone would want to use R-Pi together with Windows.

sojab0on
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Mon May 05, 2014 9:11 pm

The main problem is making the usb controller work here there are little good BSP's going round on the internet but all of the have 1 big isue usb wont work so lan wont ether, this in mainly because broadcom hase chosen to use an usb 2.0 conected lan chip that is using a third usb port from maker synopsis and the challenge is getting the driver from them.

there site is using an active stie ID authentication methode witch i cant get past just because that system is relying on u unix bassed software folder and files from some kind of program that generates that site ID i cant get the drivers for it.


i hope i can get it from some where to test with it.

Mr. Pi
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Tue May 06, 2014 3:53 pm

Hello,

:geek:

As said, microsoft said windows 8 will support ARM processors, the problem is that The Raspberry Pi will NOT have enough RAM to run windows 8... There is a solution though... There is a new I/O board for the R-Pi with the same amount of ram as the Raspberry Pi (Model B) and I believe it combines the ram on the new board and the pi and doubles the ram to 1GB as theres about 512MB of ram in both Boards and it equals as 2x the power when combined. And 512MB of Temporary Data (The Ram) + another 512MB of temp data = Approx. 1.24GB of RAM. And that should be enough to run the Windows 8 System. So it may be possible to run windows on a raspberry pi after all, and maybe if you removed the un-needed system scripts and edited it so it only took 512MB of the total ram, then that'd be great, meaning there would be enough ram for both sides of the system, basics and the system. You'd think MS-DOS would run on the raspberry pi now, but sadly not. I looked and MS-DOS won't run on the raspberry pi, yet DOSBox will run on the raspberry pi. :D So theres a bright future of the raspberry pi and windows now.

EDIT: I did a little research on the same day, and lots of people made RPi cluster machines or what they like to call "Supercomputers" and it will turn out that the new raspberry pi I/O board is likely not to double ram size, and like I said, windows 8 is going to support arm processors (according to Microsoft) and that means making a cluster pi you can make it happen! 4x = 4 pi's = 2GB of ram, which means 8 is 4gb and THAT means 16 Raspberry Pi's are 8GB of ram, and 16+16 = 32 and that also means 32 raspberry pi's are 16GB of ram, which means.... That you could iuse a raspberry pi for a computer and put it in a computer case and add all tthe accessories you want for it!
Last edited by Mr. Pi on Tue May 06, 2014 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mahjongg
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Re: Windows on R-Pi

Tue May 06, 2014 5:20 pm

Mr. Pi wrote:Hello,

:geek:

As said, microsoft said windows 8 will support ARM processors, the problem is that The Raspberry Pi will NOT have enough RAM to run windows 8... There is a solution though... There is a new I/O board for the R-Pi with the same amount of ram as the Raspberry Pi (Model B) and I believe it combines the ram on the new board and the pi and doubles the ram to 1GB as theres about 512MB of ram in both Boards and it equals as 2x the power when combined. And 512MB of Temporary Data (The Ram) + another 512MB of temp data = Approx. 1.24GB of RAM. And that should be enough to run the Windows 8 System. So it may be possible to run windows on a raspberry pi after all, and maybe if you removed the un-needed system scripts and edited it so it only took 512MB of the total ram, then that'd be great, meaning there would be enough ram for both sides of the system, basics and the system. You'd think MS-DOS would run on the raspberry pi now, but sadly not. I looked and MS-DOS won't run on the raspberry pi, yet DOSBox will run on the raspberry pi. :D So theres a bright future of the raspberry pi and windows now.
Many things wrong with your post, firstly not having enough RAM isn't by far the only thing, or even the most important thing blocking (ARM) Windows 8 from ever running on a PI, the requirement of Microsoft to have a UEFI BIOS so that the system cannot run anything BUT Windows, for one thing is much more important. Secondly your idea
There is a new I/O board for the R-Pi with the same amount of ram as the Raspberry Pi (Model B) and I believe it combines the ram on the new board and the pi and doubles the ram to 1GB as theres about 512MB of ram in both
is complete nonsensical, wishful thinking.

Also a clustered does not make for a "larger system", just a clustered system, there is a big difference, its not like having a dual core system, with dual the amount of RAM, that isn't how it works!

Also, licensing and technical impossibilities (invented by MS, just to make this sort of thing impossible) make this a no runner! MS demands complete control of any ARM platform it will allow windows 8 to run on, and the PI is probably the farthest away from that, that I can imagine.

I can forsee NO future where the PI will run windows 8! Mark my words!
Even when someone hacks windows 8 so much that technically it will run on a random ARM system MS won't sit idly by and let that happen!
I'm sorry to burst your bubble!

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